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Gerald Ung

Fenris

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HankT wrote:
Hmmm, it's clear that the gun approach in this little tiff these guys were having was simply not a good one. The gun escalated the situatoin and precipitated bad judgment by the adversaries.  I mean, jimminy cricket, two guys kept walking TOWARD a guy with a gun with apparent intent to kick his azz!!

Hank is right. Ung should have waited until he was dead. He only waited until he was physically attacked. If only he had waited, then he could be a dead victim and every one could say "Poor Ung. He had a gun. I wonder why he didn't use it?"

But I would know (and Hank would know) that Ung had read and wisely decided to follow Hank's rule: To wit: "It's a better strategy to allow yourself to be killed by a group of unarmed attackers than to dare defend yourself."

Unfortunately, Ung did not follow Hank's advice, and so now he must continue living when he could have been resting so comfortably in the morgue. With no more troubles or worries.

So the rest of you remember, "It's better to be killed than defended."
 

All American Nightmare

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HankT wrote:
My initial reaction to watching the video is that Ung was in a bad bad situation. Two guys were advancing on him with apparent intent to attack/hit him. So, it may very well be a justified act of self-defense. Sloppy and possibly avoidable. But, still, self-defense.

How it turns out in court is anyone's guess. It's just uncertain.

One thing is certain, though. This is yet another (why are there soooo many?) corroborating case of the simple and powerful wisdom of HankT's Postulate of Civilian Self-Defense[suP]©[/suP] which is:


It is a bad strategy to shoot an unarmed person.

Ifonly Ung had included analysis of this unassailable concept in his university studies.... he might not be in the legal pickle he is in now.

Ung has now learned that HPCSD[suP]©[/suP]always applies. There has never been an exception to this vaunted concept. And there never will be.

Good luck, Mr. Ung.


Shooting a unarmed person is a bad idea I agree, but what would you do in that situation ?

HankTWould you rather let them shoot you with your own gun ?
 

bmartinxd45

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HankT wrote:
bmartinxd45 wrote:
I personally am under the mantra of " I would rather be judged by 12, than carried by 6"

Just my thoughts on it.


I personally would rather do the right thing, handling the situation efficaciously in full and clearcompliance with the applicable law.

That would be better than either being judged by 12and carried by 6.

Much better.

That old"rather be judged by 12" line is sooooooooo obsolete. And lame. The proof is in the Gerald Ung case. He could have gotten out of/or avoidedhis situation without the results he got.

Smart and hard-workinglaw student ruins life.

Bet he wishes he could start that interaction over again...


P.S. One positive thing that Ung gives us: an exemplar of how not to handle an argument on the street at 2:30 AM. We all owe him for that.

I can't honestly say how I would have handled that situation HankT, short of not being out that late in Philly at all.

I like to think that I would have tried to reason with them or something before every pulling on them. I am not a big guy, 5-6 maybe 180 so I am not gonna fight with them that is for sure.

I am sorry that you feel the way you do about being judged vs. beat up or killed, I hope that this situation never occurs to you so will never have to figure out which one is better.

Peace Brother. I am out.
 

wrightme

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HankT wrote:
I don't get the stubborn resistance to HPCSD[sup]©[/sup]. I'm sure it's mostly bad reading skillz and ideology.

But in an effort to show how some (probably many) OCDers do "get it," here are a couple of posts about HPCSD[sup]©[/sup]from the past that may help.




deepdiver wrote:
Going to have to agree with Hank here.

It's kind of like: Killing civilian non-combatants in war is bad strategy.

However, if you have 10 high value enemy combatants battened down in a house with 2 civilians blowing the heck out of you with heavy small arms fire, it may be a tactical necessity to call in an air strike and destroy the house, thereby killing everyone, including the 2 civilians.

Strategically we continue the policy of Killing civilian non-combatants in war is bad strategy, and recognize the tactical reality that sometimes it is necessary to violate that strategic tenet.

dvdaughtry wrote:
HankT wrote:
Agent 19 recently posted the link about the Harold Fish case. A tragic and disheartening case it is... and is explained here:

http://www.haroldfishdefense.org/



After reading through it, I'm just sad that Fish wasn't aware of HankT's Postulateof Civilian Self-Defense (HPCSD):


It is a bad strategy to shoot an unarmed person.



This conceptual wisdom might have helped Fish deal with his self defense in 2006.

Once again, HPCSD is found to be supported. It is amazing how accurate and robust this postulate has been throughout the years...
I do more reading than posting and have seen the postulate, although heisabit arrognant with his "revelation", for the most part he is right. It is bad strategy.

The most extreme cases have been used tocombate this maxim, but the facts are the law is not on the side of the gun owner.

Just like it is bad strategy to throw 50 yard passes, or shoot to many 3 pointers,or swing for the fences too often, so is shooting an unarmedperson. However, there are times when those three actions are the only option.

But useing them too much or too soon, is bad strategy.


It's really not that difficult. A little open-mindedness, a bit ofreflection,and a dollop of calm thought......and it will come, gentleman. That's what deepdiver and dvdaugherty used. Ya gotta think of the different levels, though--strategy and tactics. That definitely helps.
"Appeal to numbers" logical fallacy. It isn't correct because you can get some other people to agree with it.

Besides, what do you know of any strategy that Mr. Ung had in mind?
 

wrightme

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HankT wrote:
bmartinxd45 wrote:
I personally am under the mantra of " I would rather be judged by 12, than carried by 6"

Just my thoughts on it.


I personally would rather do the right thing, handling the situation efficaciously in full and clearcompliance with the applicable law.
So, given the specifics of this encounter, what did he miss?
 

kaiheitai17

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Hank's opinion strikes me as being too similar to blaming the victim for having been raped.

We all need to move to Hank's Utopia. There the victim will just roll over and enjoy themself.
 

HankT

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wrightme wrote:
HankT wrote:
bmartinxd45 wrote:
I personally am under the mantra of " I would rather be judged by 12, than carried by 6"

Just my thoughts on it.


I personally would rather do the right thing, handling the situation efficaciously in full and clearcompliance with the applicable law.
So, given the specifics of this encounter, what did he miss?
Uhm, what did Ung do and say in the minutes preceding the shooting? WasUng drinking/drugging before the shooting?

My comment in reply to the lame old 'mantra' of "rather be judged by 12..." is a general one, not specific to the Ung case.

Anybody whowould actually wish get into a shooting or murdertrial is quite foolish. Anyone who would use a false dichotomy inherent in the tired old 'mantra' to justify their desire is even more foolish.




wrightme wrote:
"Appeal to numbers" logical fallacy. It isn't correct because you can get some other people to agree with it.
Huh?
 

wrightme

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HankT wrote:
wrightme wrote:
HankT wrote:
bmartinxd45 wrote:
I personally am under the mantra of " I would rather be judged by 12, than carried by 6"

Just my thoughts on it.


I personally would rather do the right thing, handling the situation efficaciously in full and clearcompliance with the applicable law.
So, given the specifics of this encounter, what did he miss?
Uhm, what did Ung do and say in the minutes preceding the shooting? WasUng drinking/drugging before the shooting?

My comment in reply to the lame old 'mantra' of "rather be judged by 12..." is a general one, not specific to the Ung case.

Anybody whowould actually wish get into a shooting or murdertrial is quite foolish. Anyone who would use a false dichotomy inherent in the tired old 'mantra' to justify their desire is even more foolish.




wrightme wrote:
"Appeal to numbers" logical fallacy. It isn't correct because you can get some other people to agree with it.
Huh?
You appeared to attempt to claim that because some persons 'get' your pustulate, it is valid.

"Rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6" is directly applicable to the case of Mr. Ung. How is your mantra applicable?
 

HankT

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wrightme wrote:
HankT wrote:
wrightme wrote:
HankT wrote:
bmartinxd45 wrote:
I personally am under the mantra of " I would rather be judged by 12, than carried by 6"

Just my thoughts on it.


I personally would rather do the right thing, handling the situation efficaciously in full and clearcompliance with the applicable law.
So, given the specifics of this encounter, what did he miss?
Uhm, what did Ung do and say in the minutes preceding the shooting? WasUng drinking/drugging before the shooting?

My comment in reply to the lame old 'mantra' of "rather be judged by 12..." is a general one, not specific to the Ung case.

Anybody whowould actually wish get into a shooting or murdertrial is quite foolish. Anyone who would use a false dichotomy inherent in the tired old 'mantra' to justify their desire is even more foolish.




wrightme wrote:
"Appeal to numbers" logical fallacy. It isn't correct because you can get some other people to agree with it.
Huh?
You appeared to attempt to claim that because some persons 'get' your pustulate, it is valid.


That's not what an "appeal to numbers" logical fallacy is. You might re-read what it actually is--then make your allegation.





wrightme wrote:
"Rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6" is directly applicable to the case of Mr. Ung. How is your mantra applicable?

No, WM. A better action for Ung would have been one that did not require being tried by a court and "judged by 12." Leaving the scene would have been very very good. Not getting high and bantering with the DiDonato boys would have been good too. Even taking a flurry of punches upside the head, if it didn't cripple him, would have been better than shooting DiDonato the way he did. Much, much better to get a couple of black eyes than to shoot an unarmed man 5 times....

HPCSD[suP]© [/suP]clearly applies here, since a great deal of Mr. Ung's woes, now and in the future, are due to his shooting of DiDonato, who had no deadly weapon. Even though DiDonato was clearly an aggressor. If DiDonato had been armed and Ung had shot him, it would be a completely different case for Ung.

This Ung caseis an exemplar of HPCSD[suP]©[/suP]'s applicability.

Please, all who read this. Pass the word around about HPCSD[suP]©[/suP]. Itmay protect the liberty of someone you love.
 

Dreamer

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HankT wrote:
No, WM. A better action for Ung would have been one that did not require being tried by a court and "judged by 12." Leaving the scene would have been very very good. Not getting high and bantering with the DiDonato boys would have been good too. Even taking a flurry of punches upside the head, if it didn't cripple him, would have been better than shooting DiDonato the way he did. Much, much better to get a couple of black eyes than to shoot an unarmed man 5 times....

Yeah, you're right, Frank. Because we all know that the only way any attackers EVER kill their victims is when they use a weapon. Nobody EVER gets maimed or killed with a bare-handed attack, ESPECIALLY when race, alcohol, and youthfully elevated testosterone are involved...

http://www.philly.com/inquirer/local/pa/20100421_City_fireman__son_charged_in_fatal_beating.html#axzz0o7bWcnmh

http://cbs3.com/local/subway.beating.sean.2.1375544.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/lawandorder/5306623/Father-of-four-beaten-to-death-after-confronting-teenagers-outside-home.html

http://www.myfoxchicago.com/dpp/news/metro/video_derrion_albert

http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_7760927

http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/2009/09/boy-16-found-slain-on-far-south-side.html

http://www.suntimes.com/news/24-7/2191740,CST-NWS-bodies23.article

http://www.democracynow.org/2008/7/24/friend_of_mexican_immigrant_beaten_to

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2009-07-26-Phillies-beating_N.htm


"How many fingers am I holding up now, Winston?"
 

wrightme

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HankT wrote:
wrightme wrote:
HankT wrote:
wrightme wrote:
HankT wrote:
bmartinxd45 wrote:
I personally am under the mantra of " I would rather be judged by 12, than carried by 6"

Just my thoughts on it.


I personally would rather do the right thing, handling the situation efficaciously in full and clearcompliance with the applicable law.
So, given the specifics of this encounter, what did he miss?
Uhm, what did Ung do and say in the minutes preceding the shooting? WasUng drinking/drugging before the shooting?

My comment in reply to the lame old 'mantra' of "rather be judged by 12..." is a general one, not specific to the Ung case.

Anybody whowould actually wish get into a shooting or murdertrial is quite foolish. Anyone who would use a false dichotomy inherent in the tired old 'mantra' to justify their desire is even more foolish.




wrightme wrote:
"Appeal to numbers" logical fallacy. It isn't correct because you can get some other people to agree with it.
Huh?
You appeared to attempt to claim that because some persons 'get' your pustulate, it is valid.


That's not what an "appeal to numbers" logical fallacy is. You might re-read what it actually is--then make your allegation.

Yes, that is what an "appeal to numbers" logical fallacy is. Something is not more correct simply because some number of individuals believe it is.


wrightme wrote:
"Rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6" is directly applicable to the case of Mr. Ung. How is your mantra applicable?

No, WM. A better action for Ung would have been one that did not require being tried by a court and "judged by 12." Leaving the scene would have been very very good. Not getting high and bantering with the DiDonato boys would have been good too. Even taking a flurry of punches upside the head, if it didn't cripple him, would have been better than shooting DiDonato the way he did. Much, much better to get a couple of black eyes than to shoot an unarmed man 5 times....

False. Other than not having a confrontation, the possible outcome IS death to him. Monday morning quarterbacking is typically a "fail" from the start. Only ONE person can accurately gauge the amount of risk of death during the encounter; in this case, Mr. Ung himself.

HPCSD[sup]© [/sup]clearly applies here, since a great deal of Mr. Ung's woes, now and in the future, are due to his shooting of DiDonato, who had no deadly weapon. Even though DiDonato was clearly an aggressor. If DiDonato had been armed and Ung had shot him, it would be a completely different case for Ung.

This Ung caseis an exemplar of HPCSD[sup]©[/sup]'s applicability.

Please, all who read this. Pass the word around about HPCSD[sup]©[/sup]. Itmay protect the liberty of someone you love.
No, this Ung case is not such exemplar. It is only a figment of your fertile imagination that seems to lead you to believe it to be so.
 

HankT

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wrightme wrote:
No, this Ung case is not such exemplar. It is only a figment of your fertile imagination that seems to lead you to believe it to be so.



Well, I give up on suggesting that you learn what an "appeal to numbers" approach really is.

But, WM, of course this case is an exemplar of HankT's Postulate of Civilian Self-Defense[suP]©[/suP].


Here are two stories that corroborate it:





1. April 19, 2010

Eddie DiDonato: From Shooting to Recovery - Part I
By Chris Goldberg, PhillyLacrosse.com

This is the first of a multi-part series on Blue Bell's Eddie DiDonato, 23, the former La Salle College High School and Villanova University lacrosse standout, who is recovering from a shooting incident in Philadelphia.

* * * *

Early one weekend morning, three months ago in the Old City Section of Philadelphia, former Villanova University and La Salle College High lacrosse standout Eddie DiDonato was shot six times at close range during an altercation.

The January 17 incident left DiDonato, 23, of Blue Bell, in critical condition in Jefferson University Hospital for several weeks.

DiDonato, who suffered severe damage to multiple organs, and a bullet to the spine, fought for his life as hard as he used to fight on the lacrosse field when he was a scholastic All-American and a two-time captain for the first Wildcats' playoff team.

Since that fateful day DiDonato has endured 10 operations, overcome numerous setbacks and has made remarkable progress towards regaining his health and strength.

Now a patient at Philadelphia's Magee Rehabilitation Hospital, DiDonato's sheer determination and willpower, along with the help of a team of rehabilitation specialists, family and friends, have him well on the road to recovery.

Now DiDonato speaks for the first time of his recovery and the amazing team that has gotten him back on his feet and holding a lacrosse stick again.

The suspect in the shooting, Gerald Ung, a Temple law student, faces a preliminary hearing in a Philadelphia court, where he is charged with attempted murder and related offenses.

* * * *

Eddie DiDonato doesn't recall much about the days immediately following the January 17th shooting in Philadelphia, where he suffered six gunshot wounds at close range.

"The first thing I remember was being in the hospital the day after the shooting and seeing the Forster brothers (best friend Rob and brother Jack) and giving them the thumbs up," he said, in his first interview since the incident. "I remember seeing my cousins, the Durkins – Kevin and Tucker – and I remember being in restraints so I couldn't move.

"I remember knowing that I was awake, and I felt pretty good. I could move my legs up and down and I knew I wasn't completely paralyzed."

During DiDonato's six-week stay at Jefferson University Hospital, he was listed in critical condition for four weeks. DiDonato underwent 10 surgeries, to repair damage to his liver, lungs, stomach, spine and hand. His organs, according to the doctors, should make a full recovery. It is unknown whether he will regain full feeling and movement of his left foot, doctors have told him.

In the first days at Jefferson, DiDonato struggled to communicate with family and friends while on a respirator.

"I remember being so upset because I had a feeding tube and a breathing tube in and I couldn't speak," he said. "I had a chart with letters on it and I had to point to spell out what I wanted to say, and nobody still could understand me. It was so difficult to pick up what I was saying; I was thinking it, but it wasn't coming out.

"It was so frustrating. Those were some of my toughest times right there."

Despite his condition, DiDonato didn't worry about healing from the bullet wounds, never doubted his recovery and wasn't about to succumb to limitations. He said his spirits were always high due to constant support from family and friends.

"I never really got that down because I always had people there and I didn't have time to ponder it," he said. "I really didn't think too much; I always assumed I'd be OK.

"I knew I was going to get better. I remember one of the doctors coming in, and I still had the ventilator in and the doctor was telling me my foot might not come back and that there was a possibility I might not walk."

"My sister [Kristen] was there and I started saying to her, 'I am gonna walk ... I am gonna walk.' I really had no doubt."

Next: DiDonato continues his recovery.


http://www.laxpower.com/laxnews/news.php?story=19509





2. May 7, 2010


Old City Shooting Suspect Due In Court
Ung Faces Homicide, Aggravated Assault Charges



PHILADELPHIA - The man caught on Fox 29 surveillance cameras shooting a Villanova student is due in court Friday.

Gerald Ung faces several charges, including attempted homicide and aggravated assault.

Police say he shot Eddie DiDonato following a fight outside Fox 29's studios at Fourth and Market streets.

He then stayed on the scene until police arrived and he was taken into custody.


http://www.myfoxphilly.com/dpp/news/local_news/Gerald_Ung_Fourth_And_Market_Streets_Shooting_Court_Appearance_050710
 

wrightme

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HankT wrote:
wrightme wrote:
No, this Ung case is not such exemplar. It is only a figment of your fertile imagination that seems to lead you to believe it to be so.



Well, I give up on suggesting that you learn what an "appeal to numbers" approach really is.
Frankly, I doubt that. :quirky
Why not simply share with us what you believe it to be, and then explain how it does not apply here?

You tried to shore up HPSCD by claiming that some persons "get it." So instead of arguing for its validity, you claim validity because a number of persons "get it." :quirky

That IS "appeal to numbers."
 

wrightme

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HankT wrote:
wrightme wrote:
No, this Ung case is not such exemplar. It is only a figment of your fertile imagination that seems to lead you to believe it to be so.
But, WM, of course this case is an exemplar of HankT's Postulate of Civilian Self-Defense[sup]©[/sup].


Here are two stories that corroborate it:

1. April 19, 2010

Eddie DiDonato: From Shooting to Recovery - Part I
By Chris Goldberg, PhillyLacrosse.com

This is the first of a multi-part series on Blue Bell's Eddie DiDonato, 23, the former La Salle College High School and Villanova University lacrosse standout, who is recovering from a shooting incident in Philadelphia.

* * * *

Early one weekend morning, three months ago in the Old City Section of Philadelphia, former Villanova University and La Salle College High lacrosse standout Eddie DiDonato was shot six times at close range during an altercation.

The January 17 incident left DiDonato, 23, of Blue Bell, in critical condition in Jefferson University Hospital for several weeks.

DiDonato, who suffered severe damage to multiple organs, and a bullet to the spine, fought for his life as hard as he used to fight on the lacrosse field when he was a scholastic All-American and a two-time captain for the first Wildcats' playoff team.

Since that fateful day DiDonato has endured 10 operations, overcome numerous setbacks and has made remarkable progress towards regaining his health and strength.

Now a patient at Philadelphia's Magee Rehabilitation Hospital, DiDonato's sheer determination and willpower, along with the help of a team of rehabilitation specialists, family and friends, have him well on the road to recovery.

Now DiDonato speaks for the first time of his recovery and the amazing team that has gotten him back on his feet and holding a lacrosse stick again.

The suspect in the shooting, Gerald Ung, a Temple law student, faces a preliminary hearing in a Philadelphia court, where he is charged with attempted murder and related offenses.

* * * *

Eddie DiDonato doesn't recall much about the days immediately following the January 17th shooting in Philadelphia, where he suffered six gunshot wounds at close range.

"The first thing I remember was being in the hospital the day after the shooting and seeing the Forster brothers (best friend Rob and brother Jack) and giving them the thumbs up," he said, in his first interview since the incident. "I remember seeing my cousins, the Durkins – Kevin and Tucker – and I remember being in restraints so I couldn't move.

"I remember knowing that I was awake, and I felt pretty good. I could move my legs up and down and I knew I wasn't completely paralyzed."

During DiDonato's six-week stay at Jefferson University Hospital, he was listed in critical condition for four weeks. DiDonato underwent 10 surgeries, to repair damage to his liver, lungs, stomach, spine and hand. His organs, according to the doctors, should make a full recovery. It is unknown whether he will regain full feeling and movement of his left foot, doctors have told him.

In the first days at Jefferson, DiDonato struggled to communicate with family and friends while on a respirator.

"I remember being so upset because I had a feeding tube and a breathing tube in and I couldn't speak," he said. "I had a chart with letters on it and I had to point to spell out what I wanted to say, and nobody still could understand me. It was so difficult to pick up what I was saying; I was thinking it, but it wasn't coming out.

"It was so frustrating. Those were some of my toughest times right there."

Despite his condition, DiDonato didn't worry about healing from the bullet wounds, never doubted his recovery and wasn't about to succumb to limitations. He said his spirits were always high due to constant support from family and friends.

"I never really got that down because I always had people there and I didn't have time to ponder it," he said. "I really didn't think too much; I always assumed I'd be OK.

"I knew I was going to get better. I remember one of the doctors coming in, and I still had the ventilator in and the doctor was telling me my foot might not come back and that there was a possibility I might not walk."

"My sister [Kristen] was there and I started saying to her, 'I am gonna walk ... I am gonna walk.' I really had no doubt."

Next: DiDonato continues his recovery.


http://www.laxpower.com/laxnews/news.php?story=19509





2. May 7, 2010


Old City Shooting Suspect Due In Court
Ung Faces Homicide, Aggravated Assault Charges
PHILADELPHIA - The man caught on Fox 29 surveillance cameras shooting a Villanova student is due in court Friday.

Gerald Ung faces several charges, including attempted homicide and aggravated assault.

Police say he shot Eddie DiDonato following a fight outside Fox 29's studios at Fourth and Market streets.

He then stayed on the scene until police arrived and he was taken into custody.


http://www.myfoxphilly.com/dpp/news/local_news/Gerald_Ung_Fourth_And_Market_Streets_Shooting_Court_Appearance_050710
Neither of those stories corroborate your point. It is not logical to claim such, but I give up in attempting to explain your logical flaws. Explaining the flaws in your logic never help you to "get it."
 

simmonsjoe

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Hijack-Duke_Nukem_Mission.gif
 

HankT

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simmonsjoe wrote:
....I wonder if Mr. Ung, when he wins, could sue Mr. DiDonato to recover costs to damaged image and legal fees? I never could understand why this civil liability only went one way....
That's reeeeeally thinking out of the box. We'll see how Ung's trial turns out. That comes first.





simmonsjoe wrote:
This is a message to HankT referring to his Trolling/Hijacking on the Gerald Ung Discussion Board.

--------------------------------------
This post was started because I care about Gerald Ung...

I don't appreciate the Troll attack. HankT you already have a running page specifically for your postulate and cases that "prove" it.

You have already caused two senior members whose opinions and views I really appreciate to un-watch this topic. Let's keep this appropriate and on-topic.

Discussing how the shoot went down is appropriate, but discussing your @#$%ing postulate is not. You deliberately posted what you knew to be inflammatory because it would allow you to hijack a discussion.
--------------------------------------

Please note: I think it more appropriate this message be sent private, however HankT does not allow any form of private message/e-mail. Probably to encourage more bull @#$%. I don't have an appropriate avenue to redress HankT without posting in a discussion, which just furthers his trolling. I decided I didn't want to further insult Gerald Ung by posting it in that discussion.





No, SJ, HPCSD[suP]©[/suP]is highly relevant to the Gerald Ung shooting. Here it is, for your ready reference:


HankT's Postulate of Civilian Self-Defense[suP]©[/suP] which is:


It is a bad strategy to shoot an unarmed person.



Here is why it is relevant, SJ.

See the article linked below, wherein a criminal defense lawyer opines about the difficulty that Ung and his attorney will have in this case.

The attorney clearlychannelsHPCSD[suP]©[/suP]:



"...a local criminal defense lawyer thinks the accused shooter may have a tough time fighting this case because the alleged incident involved the shooting of an unarmed man on a public street."

"The law of justification of self defense where deadly force is used is very exacting,..."

"... shooting an unarmed man on a public street, he said, creates a difficult case for self defense."




Old City Shooting Suspect Posts Bail

http://www.myfoxphilly.com/dpp/news/local_news/old-city-shooting-suspect-posts-bail
 

Citizen

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So, if a bad guy is reaching for a gun, I can't shoot him before he gets it and uses it on me? Say, he is reaching for a gun in his waistband? Or, he is reaching for a gun on a table? Or, he is reaching for...



...my gun in my hand? The videoshows Ung's antagonist approaching him closelyeven seconds after Ung has already presented his gun. I think the quoted attorney is a little inexperienced.Either he is misquoted, or he clearly doesn'trealize that a person doesn't have tohavea weaponliterally in his hands or on his person.

Even VA state law--18.2-308--recognizes that a person can employ a concealed weapon quicklyeven if it is noton his person.18.2-308 uses the words "about his person". If the only dangerous weapon is the one on the person, there would be no point in using thewords "about his person."
 

HankT

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Citizen wrote:
So, if a bad guy is reaching for a gun, I can't shoot him before he gets it and uses it on me? Say, he is reaching for a gun in his waistband? Or, he is reaching for a gun on a table? Or, he is reaching for...



...my gun in my hand? The videoshows Ung's antagonist approaching him closelyeven seconds after Ung has already presented his gun. I think the quoted attorney is a little inexperienced.Either he is misquoted, or he clearly doesn'trealize that a person doesn't have tohavea weaponliterally in his hands or on his person.

Even VA state law--18.2-308--recognizes that a person can employ a concealed weapon quicklyeven if it is noton his person.18.2-308 uses the words "about his person". If the only dangerous weapon is the one on the person, there would be no point in using thewords "about his person."
And your J.D. is from.....where, Citizen?
 

Citizen

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HankT wrote:
Citizen wrote:
So, if a bad guy is reaching for a gun, I can't shoot him before he gets it and uses it on me? Say, he is reaching for a gun in his waistband? Or, he is reaching for a gun on a table? Or, he is reaching for...



...my gun in my hand? The videoshows Ung's antagonist approaching him closelyeven seconds after Ung has already presented his gun. I think the quoted attorney is a little inexperienced.Either he is misquoted, or he clearly doesn'trealize that a person doesn't have tohavea weaponliterally in his hands or on his person.

Even VA state law--18.2-308--recognizes that a person can employ a concealed weapon quicklyeven if it is noton his person.18.2-308 uses the words "about his person". If the only dangerous weapon is the one on the person, there would be no point in using thewords "about his person."
And your J.D. is from.....where, Citizen?
Oh, come, come, HankY. You can do better than that. Your needling little tactics are usually more sophisticated. Usually not so easy to shoot down. Slipping as you get older? Tired because it is the end of the weak? There is nothing so disappointing as an unsophisticated nasty.

Who needs a JD? Iimagine there are tons of criminal defense attorneys who never defended a self-defense case.

Ayoob does not have a JD. Yet, he repeatedly advises that you need to be ready to convey to the jury information that is not common knowledge like the 21-foot rule, and that a bad guy can turn to avoid your fire faster than you can tell your finger to stop pulling the trigger resulting in side shots and back shots.

It is not whether one is an attorney. It is whether one has relevant information.


Ayoob has what? 20+ years as an expert witness in self-defense cases for both civilians and police. No JD, but he has the information. He had the piece I mentioned above perhaps 15-18 years ago already.

Too easy, HankY. You didn't even bother to refute my claim. Just attacked the messenger's credibility. Old tactic. Very old. (sigh)
 

Tomahawk

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HankT wrote:
Citizen wrote:
So, if a bad guy is reaching for a gun, I can't shoot him before he gets it and uses it on me? Say, he is reaching for a gun in his waistband? Or, he is reaching for a gun on a table? Or, he is reaching for...



...my gun in my hand? The videoshows Ung's antagonist approaching him closelyeven seconds after Ung has already presented his gun. I think the quoted attorney is a little inexperienced.Either he is misquoted, or he clearly doesn'trealize that a person doesn't have tohavea weaponliterally in his hands or on his person.

Even VA state law--18.2-308--recognizes that a person can employ a concealed weapon quicklyeven if it is noton his person.18.2-308 uses the words "about his person". If the only dangerous weapon is the one on the person, there would be no point in using thewords "about his person."
And your J.D. is from.....where, Citizen?

Nice personal attack, Hank.

Do you have your lawyer with you when you walk the streets, so that you can be sure of the law when you get mugged? Ignorance of the law is no excuse. Citizen actually took the time to read the law. Did you?
 
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