few questions about transportation

[Nutczak]

A case is not illegal concealment!

What part of this is so difficult for you to understand?

We are required by law to have a firearm in a proper case with no part showing and all closures fully closed, be it a tie string, buckle, snaps, zipper, etc etc etc. and the firearm must also be unloaded when we transport it in or on any vehicle.
If a gun case is concealment, then that law eviscerates or right to keep and bear arms.

The transport laws are from the DNR, they are there to make road hunting and poaching convictions easier to prosecute.
Nowhere in the law does it state it must also be placed in a spot where it is out of reach by all people in or on a vehicle.
lets go back to flying on a commercial flight to look at this again. Have you ever flown to a destination and brought a firearm? What you are required to do is have it in a locked case, with a firearm declaration tag on the case, and then we are supposed to "Hide" the gun case in another piece of luggage with nothing on the luggage stating that a firearm is inside of it.
to legally be in a school zone on public property, the firearm must be properly cased and unloaded, there again is nothing that states "out of reach"

A properly cased and unloaded firearm in a motor vehicle is already out of reach simply because it is properly cased.
The cop in this most recent case was in error by charging this guy, the judge saw it the same way.

I could care less if you feel you need to keep a cased and unloaded gun in the trunk, or our of reach when you travel, But I will not waste my time and be completely defenseless by putting myself in that situation, therefore I travel with my cased and unloaded firearm right next to me in my truck.
Then we can get into Hamden again, My need outweighs the states prohibition.

 

[Uziel Gal]

Bang your head. Metal health'll drive you mad.

I do not believe that I have ever said that a case was illegal concealment. Although not all cases are created equal. It seems rather pointless for me to continue this discussion since I seem to be dealing with fanatics, no offense. I just can't help myself.

The cop in this most recent case was in error by charging this guy, the judge saw it the same way.

So the cop was in error, Judge Cook was in error when he found probable cause in the complaint, and Judge Watts was in error by not dismissing the case and instead wasting taxpayer time and money to write a 8 page judicial decision finding that the charge was unconstitutional as applied to the defendant in this case. Well its a good thing you and the defendant were right that a properly encased and unloaded firearm can never be considered a "dangerous weapon" or "hidden" or "on ones person" or any other element of carrying a concealed weapon.

Now there is no reason for you to actually talk to your legislators about a nonexistent problem, no reason to advocate for real legislative firearm reform, no reason to let every gun owner in the State know that they could be charged erroneously for attempting to abide by State law, no reason to change a thing.

Now I'm hypothetically off to drive my pickup through a elementary school grounds with some unloaded evil black rifles in a locked gun rack in the window because State law 948.605 says I can. Then off to some government buildings with my unloaded and encased firearms, since it's all ready "out of reach" I won't be even be armed. Wish me luck.

 

[Captain Nemo]

transportation of firearm in vehicle

Unpublished court opinions made prior to July 1, 2009 have no precedential value in a Wisconsin court of law. Alloy is an unpiblished opinion made prior to that date and is moot to this discussion. (Wis ss809.23(3)).

If persons are still intent on referencing Alloy they should also pay heed to footnote 3 of the opinion:

3 While complying with WIS. STAT. § 167.31 might provide a defense to a person who
possessed a concealed weapon immediately after it was encased for purposes of transporting it,
those facts are not present here. We do not address hypothetical arguments.

Also, of the many cases referenced in this thread only Fry, Walls and Fisher involved transport of a firearm in or on a vehicle, which by the way is the subject of this thread. None of those three cases involved firearms that were properly unloaded and encased IAW ss167.31.

Of the extensive research I have done on case law involving convictions for carrying a concealed weapon I can find no published court opinion where a person was convicted of that crime while transporting a firearm in or on a vehicle, if that firearm was properly unloaded and encased as required by 167.31.

My conclusion to my research is that there appears to be an "understanding" in the Wisconsin judicial sytem that if a firearm is properly unloaded and encased while being transported in or on a vehicle the rules of concealment do not apply. One rule of which is "within reach".

If someone can cite a published case opinion or information to the contrary please correct me.

This is my opinion and not to be considered legal advice.

 

[McX]

*

 

[comp45acp]

This has been posted before but here it is again. From the Wisconsin State Patrol's website, frequently asked questions.

"What is the legal method of carrying a weapon in my vehicle in Wisconsin?

With the weapon cased and unloaded. Applies to firearms and bow hunting equipment."

Good enough for me.

 

[Captain Nemo]

Let Alloy R.I.P.

State v Alloy keeps showing it's ugly head everytime vehicle transport of firearms is discussed. It is best we let the case rest in peace that it is not relevant because it is an unpublished court opinion.

Alloy was convicted in district court for carrying a concealed firearm because he had a handgun in a zippered case and then placed the encased handgun in a metal box between the seats of his Jeep wagoneer. I presume the zippered case is what we refer to as a "rug" which is a legal encasement by definition.

On April 4, 2000 the III district court of appeals released an unpublished opinion upholding the lower court conviction. We can be glad that the opinion was unpublished. Had it been a published opinion and therefore case law, it is possible that anytime we would place a legally encased firearm out of ordinary view we could risk being charged with carrying a concealed weapon. Such carry as; in the saddle bags of a motorcycle, under the seat of a vehicle, in the center console of a vehicle, in a backpack while riding in or on a vehicle, inside luggage, in storage compartments on ATV's and snowmobiles, in vehicle glove compartments and even inside trunks could be deemed as carrying a concealed weapon. It would not matter if the weapon was lawfully cased or not. It appears the district III court regarded "in normal view" to be the determinig factor even if the firearm is encased IAW ss167.31.

 

[apjonas]

Good Arguments on Both Sides

Bad ones too. Six comments:

1. I am not sure who is citing Alloy or why. The test for concealed comes from the Keith case. It is not part of the statute but is included as an addendum since it impacts 941.23. It is a Court of Appeals decision, which unless and until the WI Supreme Court says otherwise, is pretty powerful precedent.

2. You can (in at least some circumstances) comply with both laws. You can certainly make the argument that to do so is so onerous that there is a constitutional problem. Or that encasement is not concealment.

3. "As applied" to Joe Schmo is just that. Your mileage may (and probably will) vary. Ask Mr. Fisher. Remember it doesn't have to make sense. It's the law.

4. Quoting the WSP is like quoting OCDO. Makes you feel good but of no value in real life (e.g. in court).

5. If you want to be algore and say something along the lines "there is no controlling legal authority" - go ahead. If you end up in court, you can be sure that at the end there will be (even if it applies only to you).

6. Don't forget to vote in the primary today.

 

[phred]

It seems rather pointless for me to continue this discussion since I seem to be dealing with fanatics, no offense. I just can't help myself.

Yup

Well, at least I'm in the company of GOOD "fanatics".

For the umpteenth time - unloaded and encased is proper vehicular transportation technique.

 

[IcrewUH60]

[...]

6. Don't forget to vote in the primary today.

+1

 

[Nutczak]

Fanatic? for my constitutional guaranteed rights? Yup, sure am!

I'll wear that tag as a medal of honor Uziel Gal. Are you going to call me a racist next?
Why should I not be fanatical about protecting and exercising my rights? Someone has got to do it, Way too many people just ignore their liberties until they slip away, completely out of reach (hmm, out of reach?)

Many people have been convicted of using normal everyday tools for an offensive weapon, do you also advocate that we carry a baseball bat, golf club, hockey stick, flashlight (I successfully used a flashlight as a defensive weapon a few short years ago) tire iron, or even a can of WD40 in the trunk of our vehicle so we do not get wrongfully tagged with transporting and/or concealing a deadly weapon in our vehicle?
In my situation when I used the flashlight to defend myself (4-cell Maglite), the police recommended charges against me to the county attorney, they wanted to get me with concealed weapon, aggravated battery, and a host of other charges, but the prosecutor declined to charge me. Do you know why?

Case law gets made because of people challenging laws as they are written. If I was forced by law to keep a properly cased and unloaded firearm completely out of reach while transporting it, this would mean I could not legally transport any firearm in any vehicle which I currently own. This totally eviscerates my rights as they stand.
And I believe it was in Vegas when the judge ruled that the states prohibition was far outweighed by the needs of Vegas. So he was cleared of transporting a loaded weapon that was not in a case, and for the shooting of an attempted robbery suspect.
The judge ruled that the law is unconstitutional as it applied to this defendant, just as it should have been ruled in any case where a cased unloaded firearm is transported in or on a vehicle.
Because of this, I will continue just as I always have transporting my firearms in a proper case while unloaded, and in the passenger seat of my truck.

We have an inherited right to be able to defend ourselves, I will continue to exercise that right

 

[McX]

i've got an idea. now that we've hashed it out, and the rules have been posted, lets all delete what we do, in the real world, on a real day, replace it with a *, and do what we think is right, and best fits our needs, and circumstances, and try very damn hard to obey the law, but not post about it?

 

[IcrewUH60]

Like This?

i've got an idea. now that we've hashed it out, and the rules have been posted, lets all delete what we do, in the real world, on a real day, replace it with a *, and do what we think is right, and best fits our needs, and circumstances, and try very damn hard to obey the law, but not post about it?

I carry my *** encased, unloaded behind the passenger seat out of plain view.

I don't speed while carrying my ***.
All my lights work.
I obey the traffic laws while carrying my ***.
I compy with lawful orders when carrying my ***.
I don't talk to cops when carrying my ***.
I never give permission to search while carrying my ***.

that's how I transport my *** in my vehicle.

 

[Interceptor_Knight]

Just because you choose to do something even if you have had multiple Law Enforcement interactions and have never been charged does not make such conduct legal..

Just because individuals have been cited by overly zealous police officers does NOT make it illegal. It takes a court to convict. As is reflected in the recent court case, it is not clearly illegal to have a "legally" encased firearm within your reach. MKE Gal was not convicted either. There is simply no recent conviction for CCW where the individual had a legally encased firearm "within reach".

 

[McX]

I carry my *** encased, unloaded behind the passenger seat out of plain view.

I don't speed while carrying my ***.
All my lights work.
I obey the traffic laws while carrying my ***.
I compy with lawful orders when carrying my ***.
I don't talk to cops when carrying my ***.
I never give permission to search while carrying my ***.

that's how I transport my *** in my vehicle.

right on, and thusly spoken.

 

[davegran]

We don't need to Ste-e-e-n-king words....

I usually xxx my xxx on the xxx while I'm xxxing; but sometimes I xxx my xxx right in the xxx while I'm xxxing. Once in a great while I just xxx my xxx. :monkey:lol:

 

[Running Wolf]

I usually *** twice on Sundays!