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Culpeper shooting

twoskinsonemanns

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What I said was that "fry 'em, regardless of the law" is the thing that jurors may not elect. That's lynching, it's immoral, and illegal.
I guess this is where we will have to disagree. As in the case below if it had gone to trial and you pointed out to me right in the law clear as crystal the cop is exempt when mowing down people due to being distracted by his laptop... I would still vote guilty. It may be immoral to you as a lawyer. But I'm comfortable believing it's moral as a human being.

I do agree with you the jury selection process needs fixing.

Since the jury got it wrong then Harmon is/was not a "dirty" cop. Though, dirty is the wrong term. How about law breaking cop? Many citizens, none that I know of, enjoy QI. I do not enjoy exemptions in the laws for cop misbehavior. Case in point, the California cop who ran down and killed a cyclist due to he being distracted while using his cruiser's laptop computer. No criminal charges for distracted driving cuz, no criminal charges for vehicular homicide, in CA cops are exempt if they are distracted while conducting official business and then injure or kill a citizen. Free passes are built into the law. Free p[asses are buttressed by case law.
 

Citizen

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I guess this is where we will have to disagree. As in the case below if it had gone to trial and you pointed out to me right in the law clear as crystal the cop is exempt when mowing down people due to being distracted by his laptop... I would still vote guilty. It may be immoral to you as a lawyer. But I'm comfortable believing it's moral as a human being.

It might also be moral to User as a person looking beyond a single case.


[video=youtube;PDBiLT3LASk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDBiLT3LASk[/video]
 

twoskinsonemanns

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It might also be moral to User as a person looking beyond a single case.

]

Agreed, could be that. I assumed it was based on a professional view point. Obviously it's not fair to a lawyer who knows he is right to lose just because the law is morally wrong in the opinion of the juror.
 

KBCraig

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I skipped through the last several dozen posts, because I've been away from the forum.

I disagree with user's excuses for his client in this case, but I celebrate his steadfast defense of his client.

That's exactly why when my son and his wife were stationed in VA, I gave them Dan Hawes' phone number, and made sure they both put it in their speed dials. ;)
 

Citizen

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[Responding to sinners and casting stones.] Definitely not me, one reason I used to never want to sit in judgment on a jury before I knew what a jurors true job is.

Not arguing or contradicting. Just expanding.

One can take the concept too far, also.

Taken to reducto ad absurdum, nobody would ever be able to criticize or demand another knock off the harm of a moral or ethical blind-spot. All have their ethical or moral blind-spot(s). If only the pure can cast metaphorical stones, nobody would have standing to criticize. All of us would be silently subject to the harms arising from the lowest common-denominator of ethics or morality. From another angle, keep in mind that His admonition against casting stones was made in the context of an execution.

We already have a first-cousin to that idea running rampant in society--accusations of hypocrisy. "Ha! What a hypocrite Joe is! He preaches against promiscuity, but then he gets caught with a hooker!" I have long considered that the first guy who is qualified to comment on a low moral or ethic is the guy who's been there and experienced the reduction in quality of life. Simplistic thinking is the bedrock of an accusation of hypocrisy. It takes no great degree of intelligence to spot an obvious contradiction. It takes a little bit more understanding of one's fellows (and oneself?) to not be surprised when another's actions contradict his preaching, or find such short-comings so common-place as hardly deserving comment. Accusing another of hypocrisy is not far removed from accusing him of having a nose.
 
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Citizen

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That same carpenter also admonished to render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and unto God what is God's.

I saw an interesting commentary on this not too long ago. Apparently, some use the biblical quote to support the legitimacy of the state. The commenter pointed out that He was artfully dodging a rhetorical trap to ensnare him for treason before He was ready.
 

sudden valley gunner

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Not arguing or contradicting. Just expanding.

One can take the concept too far, also.

Taken to reducto ad absurdum, nobody would ever be able to criticize or demand another knock off the harm of a moral or ethical blind-spot. All have their ethical or moral blind-spot(s). If only the pure can cast metaphorical stones, nobody would have standing to criticize. All of us would be silently subject to the harms arising from the lowest common-denominator of ethics or morality. From another angle, keep in mind that His admonition against casting stones was made in the context of an execution.

We already have a first-cousin to that idea running rampant in society--accusations of hypocrisy. "Ha! What a hypocrite Joe is! He preaches against promiscuity, but then he gets caught with a hooker!" I have long considered that the first guy who is qualified to comment on a low moral or ethic is the guy who's been there and experienced the reduction in quality of life. Simplistic thinking is the bedrock of an accusation of hypocrisy. It takes no great degree of intelligence to spot an obvious contradiction. It takes a little bit more understanding of one's fellows (and oneself?) to not be surprised when another's actions contradict his preaching, or find such short-comings so common-place as hardly deserving comment. Accusing another of hypocrisy is not far removed from accusing him of having a nose.

Very interesting take, thank you.
 

sudden valley gunner

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HAPPY EASTER

That same carpenter also admonished to render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and unto God what is God's. I can discriminate good from evil, judge, and cast stones, for having my sins forgiven. Sola Fide. Sola Scriptura. Sola Gratia.

The courts are Caesar's, my conscience is mine and clear. A difference of Luther's teaching was that we are not to tie ourselves in knots to winkle out every transgression, they are all known by our Creator. Honest repentance is all that is required.

In context it appears to me the carpenter was wisely avoiding an entrapment by those who wanted him dead and were willing to use the state to do the dirty deed.
 

user

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In context it appears to me the carpenter was wisely avoiding an entrapment by those who wanted him dead and were willing to use the state to do the dirty deed.

Paul makes a similar admonition, Romans 13:1-7, but a really big problem for Jesus was the use of phrases such as "son of God", which is what the Emperor, since the time of Augustus, used exclusively in connection with himself, at least until his own apotheosis. Augustus was the first, btw, to refer to himself as "The Supreme Holy Father", too, by the way. But Jesus' understanding of the nature of the unity of God was (and I submit, still is) in direct contravention of the cult of Rome, which is why, under later emperors, one was required to be able to produce a certificate showing that he had made the proper sacrifices to the Emperor or die.

Another factor is the relative unbelief I see among the religious people today. They think God has gone off to the fifth dimension somewhere and is separate from the time/space dimensional construct. It doesn't occur to them that God does "diddle" in human affairs and gives people hints and nudges that cause things to happen in certain ways and not others. So not only should one comply with the civil authority to the extent that it is legally and morally correct to do so, but one should not lose his peace over the internal struggle against an illusory power. Or, put another way, one can stop worrying about getting stopped for speeding without a radar detector simply by complying (more or less) with the traffic law. You don't have to be concerned about getting a ticket for an HOV violation if you just stay out of the HOV lane at rush hour. Such things help build a habit of patience, as well.

This stuff has a lot to do with why I practice law and talk about voluntary compliance a lot. In a society in which we (and all the other Wal-Mart Shoppers) are at least indirectly responsible for the laws we choose to enact, we have a special responsibility to all the others in the game to play by the rules. It's also why I've been questioning, lately, my participation in a system that I believe to be in a state of decay. There are good and honest people in every nook and cranny of The System (or as Marcus Borg puts it, "the Domination System"), but there is also a whole lot of just plain humans who are not intellectually honest and who regard the importance of individual people as more significant than the importance of our law. How can people be voluntarily compliant when just that part of the law which is codified would take a lifetime just to read, much less to understand?
 
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marshaul

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How can people be voluntarily compliant when just that part of the law which is codified would take a lifetime just to read, much less to understand?

Why should they be?

In places like California it's gotten so bad that there is virtually zero overlap (beyond obvious stuff like "don't commit acts of aggression") between enacted laws and limitations which can be readily understood (and therefore voluntarily followed), and as well between those laws and moral behavior.

I don't think law deserves the benefit of doubt you seem to grant it. The onus is rightfully and completely on those enacting legislative impositions to justify and explain their interventions, every step of the way.

A claim of default righteousness on the part of law is inherently question-begging, but more importantly has been disproved, via reductio ad absurdum, by law itself.

Given that most of (statutory) law's strongest proponents argue that such law, to achieve its goals, must be respected by default, and given that, by any reasonable analysis, (statutory) law cannot be respected by default, I find it increasingly difficult to attach any value whatsoever to statutory law.
 
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Citizen

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SNIP Paul makes a similar admonition, Romans 13:1-7, but a really big problem for Jesus was the use of phrases such as "son of God", which is what the Emperor, since the time of Augustus, used exclusively in connection with himself, at least until his own apotheosis. Augustus was the first, btw, to refer to himself as "The Supreme Holy Father", too, by the way. But Jesus' understanding of the nature of the unity of God was (and I submit, still is) in direct contravention of the cult of Rome, which is why, under later emperors, one was required to be able to produce a certificate showing that he had made the proper sacrifices to the Emperor or die.

Hmmmm. I wonder. I shall have to do a little research.

Augustus was Julius Caesar's legal heir--Caesar expressly named the young man, Octavian, his legal heir in his will. We know Octavian as Augustus Caesar. And, for sure, Julius Caesar was pontifex maximus--the head of the cult of Rome. That is where the Pope gets the word pontiff from. Julius Caesar ran for pontifex maximus and was elected fair and square, or as fair and square as buying votes and corruption could be said to be. This was an old office; not to say it was dusty or useless, just that it was well established.

So, I wonder whether Augustus, upon the death of the only real challenger to his power--Mark Antony--I wonder whether Augustus assumed the title of pontifex maximus, or maybe he was nominated or awarded it by the Senate. I can't imagine it transferred to him from Julius Caesar. I shall have to look into it.

I'm interested in it because you can almost see the government distortion--the slippery slope--from an elected office to an obligation to prove your sacrifice or die.


Edited to Add: Found it. The Senate voted that should Julius Caesar die, his title as pontifex maximus would pass to his legal heir--son or adopted son. While Octavian aka Augustus did become Julius Caesar's adopted son, somewhere along the line, the title was picked up by Lepidus. Lepidus was co-triumvir with Octavian and Mark Antony in the Second Triumvirate. If I recall, Octavian and Antony sidelined Lepidus to a certain extent. Years later, when an aging Lepidus passed away, Augustus assumed his position as pontifex maximus. Until re-reading, I forgot that Augustus was pro-morality, and used his position as first citizen* to promote a return to virtue. Assuming the title of pontifex maximus helped him along that line.

*Augustus did not call himself emperor. Romans would not have tolerated that--Julius Caesar was killed because he became too powerful. (It was later scholars who assigned Augustus the honor of being the first emperor of Rome.) Similarly, he could not deify himself while alive. Here is where User's information ties in: Becoming pontifex maximus gave Augustus stronger influence in religious matters, but Romans close to Rome and the political center would not tolerate deification while he was alive. However! In the provinces he encouraged a cult with Rome as a goddess, and himself a god-like being. This was a political maneuver to give religious provincials a way to be loyal to the boss in Rome.

So, there you go. What started as a gentle push in a certain direction was twisted by later emperors until the emperor was a god, and buddy, you'd better prove your submission to that god.


ETA: I wonder if Thomas Jefferson had any of this history in mind when he wrote the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom, creating "a wall of separation between church and state." Certainly, he knew the much more recent history of the religious strife in England coming forward from Henry VIII's break with Rome--the seesawing back and forth between Catholics, Anglicans, Protestants, and fundamentalists (Puritans), ultimately resulting in two civil wars (Oliver Cromwell) and eventually the abdication of James II. But, I wonder whether he had the Roman emperors and their godhood in mind, too. Anybody know?
 
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Citizen

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SNIP So not only should one comply with the civil authority to the extent that it is legally and morally correct to do so, but one should not lose his peace over the internal struggle against an illusory power. Or, put another way, one can stop worrying about getting stopped for speeding without a radar detector simply by complying (more or less) with the traffic law. You don't have to be concerned about getting a ticket for an HOV violation if you just stay out of the HOV lane at rush hour. Such things help build a habit of patience, as well.

This stuff has a lot to do with why I practice law and talk about voluntary compliance a lot. In a society in which we (and all the other Wal-Mart Shoppers) are at least indirectly responsible for the laws we choose to enact, we have a special responsibility to all the others in the game to play by the rules. It's also why I've been questioning, lately, my participation in a system that I believe to be in a state of decay. There are good and honest people in every nook and cranny of The System (or as Marcus Borg puts it, "the Domination System"), but there is also a whole lot of just plain humans who are not intellectually honest and who regard the importance of individual people as more significant than the importance of our law. How can people be voluntarily compliant when just that part of the law which is codified would take a lifetime just to read, much less to understand?

First, let me say I recognize you are sharper and wiser than I, and that this is probably a large part semantics; so, to avoid lots of conditionals, and alternatives, I'll just dive in, treating your text in a more literal sense, saying:

I disagree.

I set my own standards for conduct. Not the state. Not society; certainly not a society that is willing to rule other equals without their express individual consent. Certainly not a society that is willing to try to seize the levers of power in order to force others to behave the way they want. If my conscience and ethics happens to coincide with "the law" and "morality", fine. It is just a matter of the two happening to coincide. Nothing more. The last who was so much better than I that he deserved to rule me was tacked up to a cross by the Romans almost two millennia ago.

I have absolutely no responsibility to others to play by the rules of yet others. Especially when most of those rules were invented by self-serving, pandering politicians. And, double-especially when those pandering, self-serving politicians rely on an asserted authority from men dead for over two hundred years.

No. My responsibility to others is not to initiate aggression against them. To leave them alone. Or, to persuade them to my ideas. Nothing more. And, they owe me the same responsibility. No one, not one! has my signature on a contract or agreement to accept one jot more responsibility. For ****** sure, pathetically few have ever offered me the same in return even verbally.

Do I speed? No. Is it because I want to comply? No. Is it because I no longer want to go fast? You bet. Do I sometimes speed? It is very rare; but, when I do, you can bet its because I decided I wanted to or needed to (not counting accidentally). When I "comply" with some government rule, regulation, or law, you can bet its either coincidence--I happened to already have the same or higher ethical standard--or it was a grudging decision not to risk exposing myself to enforcement. I don't need "society" in the form of its "government" to tell me that murder, robbery, burglary, fraud, rape, and arson are wrong. I'm not going to go out shoot up some heroin if government suddenly decides to legalize it.

I think at the bottom of this is self-respect and self-worth. Years ago I was talking with a real live, honest-to-god, made-a-living-from-it psych. She told me our self-esteem is tied to our sense of accomplishment in life or some such. Rubbish. Years later I discovered our self-esteem is tied directly to our self-recognized harmful acts of commission and omission against our fellow human beings. No qualifications. No conditions. Plain and simple. What did you do? Who did you do it to? What should you have done that you didn't? Who did you not do it for when you should have? And, our sense of self-worth is tied directly to our contributions to others. What contribution did you make exactly to who?

While I still seek redemption, I have little doubt about my own ethics. And, I know to a relatively exacting degree my contributions to my fellows. You see, I've had some time to think it over. Some time for introspection. Can't claim I've attained Bodhi; I'm not a Louis Pasteur, Jonas Salk, or Mother Theresa. But, I am damn sure I am not a risk to others who is so stupid or dangerous he needs regulated, lawed, or ruled. And, I am damn sure nobody else is so much better than I that they deserve to set themselves above me and rule me. Once you stop doubting your own self-worth, start recovering your self-respect, you come to realize the rest of the world isn't enough better than you that they deserve to rule you. You come to realize that the "rulers" are just playing on your own self-doubts about your own self-worth and ethics--and everybody else's.

Which is really just another way of saying the individual really is all-important. I know that isn't what User meant when he said some treat the individual as more important than the law; I'm just using his comment as a jumping off point. The fact is, without individuals, there can be no society. Rulers are just playing down the individual, banking on his own lack of self-worth and self-respect, using his own appreciation of his fellow human beings to get him to elevate society (other individuals) above himself, their arguments always calling on the individual to make some sacrifice for the "good of society."

Do I respect the individual? You decide. Here is a simple idea I've expressed for maybe two years now: "There is no person on this earth I hate so much that I would actually vote to afflict him with government."
 
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Grapeshot

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--snipped--
I have absolutely no responsibility to others to play by the rules of yet others...........

....... No one, not one! has my signature on a contract or agreement to accept one jot more responsibility.
Au contraire, but that would seem very telling of your thought process..

You need not look beyond these pages for an example of where you have agreed to abide.

ACCEPTANCE OF RULES
If you do not agree with any of these Rules then please do not use this site, because BY USING THIS SITE YOU WILL BE DEEMED TO HAVE IRREVOCABLY AGREED TO THESE RULES. Please note that these Rules may be revised and reissued without notice at any time. You should review the current Rules regularly, since your continued use of the site will be deemed as irrevocable acceptance of any revisions.
 

OC for ME

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So, is OCDO hoping to assume the mantle of "civil authority"? :)
More along the lines of a selfish land owner. Concerned over the look of his front yard. I have no issues with a fellow who keeps a tidy yard.

As to the rules of this site, is the law subject to change without notice? It sometimes seems to. In fact the law is not changed without notice, or are we simply not paying attention. When a cop resorts to policy as the foundation of his acts we are told to be confident that the policy is founded on the law. Nope, cops who violate our rights do so because they have hung their moral compass on a hook in their locker before hitting the streets. The policy reins supreme ans is not to be violated, cuz the cop could get fired 9or not promoted), this is bad, no? How can a cop know right from wrong, if he knows right from wrong, yet do wrong.

We are expected to stop shooting if the threat is running away but not cops, they may continue shooting because a policy, founded on bad law, permits them to keep shooting.

Q-munity caretaking, or more simply put, the state, and the state alone, knows what is good for you. All we need to do to confirm this is to read the words of those few cops who post here from time to time.
 

sudden valley gunner

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Au contraire, but that would seem very telling of your thought process..

You need not look beyond these pages for an example of where you have agreed to abide.

ACCEPTANCE OF RULES
If you do not agree with any of these Rules then please do not use this site, because BY USING THIS SITE YOU WILL BE DEEMED TO HAVE IRREVOCABLY AGREED TO THESE RULES. Please note that these Rules may be revised and reissued without notice at any time. You should review the current Rules regularly, since your continued use of the site will be deemed as irrevocable acceptance of any revisions.

I'm fairly certain he is referring to positive law.
 

Repeater

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McAwful grants full restoration to Daniel Harmon-Wright (Oops)

Gov. Terry McAuliffe (D) mistakenly restored the right to vote to several violent felons currently in prison or on supervised probation, as part of his sweeping clemency order, records show.

Including Daniel Harmon-Wright.

Daniel Harmon-Wright, who lost his final appeal.

Daniel Harmon-Wright, who was released on supervised probation.

So, how does McAwful rationalize his boo-boos? By being coy:
When McAuliffe restored their rights and the rights of others amid great fanfare on April 22, he presented it as a way for Virginia to move past the Jim Crow era, because African Americans have been disproportionately affected by felon disenfranchisement. One in 4 African Americans in Virginia had been banned from voting because of laws restricting the rights of those with convictions.

The administration said only felons who had served their time and completed parole would win back the right to vote and be permitted to resume other aspects of civic life, such as serving on a jury or running for public office.

McAuliffe’s spokesman, Brian Coy, attributed the errors to flaws in a system officials devised to identify convicted felons in Virginia.

But officials did not check for felons living outside Virginia, such as Cloud, who is serving the first of two life sentences in West Virginia, and Harmon-Wright, who is on supervised probation in California.

“This is obviously a massive administrative undertaking,” Coy said. “We are working constantly to refine the working administrative database that we’re using to implement this process. As we are made aware of ways we can refine it, we’re executing those refinements immediately.”

But wait, there's more from Coy:
As of Thursday night, McAuliffe’s spokesman, Coy, could not say how many people had mistakenly been given back voting rights while serving sentences in other states.

In the cases of Dantic and Ferrara, data entry errors were to blame, Coy said. In one case, a Social Security number was incorrect; in another, the computer program dropped a “zero” at the start of a Social Security number, he said.

“The folks you brought to us are going to be removed,” Coy said. “None of them have exercised any rights. In the interest of keeping the list clean, it would be nice if prosecutors called us before they called you.”

None of the felons had registered to vote, Coy said. If they had, the Department of Elections voter database would have allowed it, and they could have voted by absentee mail.

The state has denied Freedom of Information Act requests, citing a “working papers” exemption, and they will not change that position as a result of the errors, Coy said.

“This underscores our point that this is a working list. We are constantly refining it,” he said.

In the meantime, the state is relying on prosecutors and felons themselves to spot errors.

McAwful's version of UBCs? Simply put:
Coy had this message for felons in prison or under supervised probation who discover that their rights have been restored: “You should contact our office immediately.”

Perfect!
 

ProShooter

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