Chesterfield PD--OCer Encounter

[wylde007]

OK, Not "Identical"

But the general phraseology would lead one to believe that they could have been written one in deference to the other... and they BOTH indicate that they rely on the "circumstances" as a prerequisite for identification.

Lawful open carry is not a circumstance worthy of such a demand. Any "reasonable man" should be able to ascertain that fact.

 

[user]

Here's a few more...

But the general phraseology would lead one to believe that they could have been written one in deference to the other... and they BOTH indicate that they rely on the "circumstances" as a prerequisite for identification.

Lawful open carry is not a circumstance worthy of such a demand. Any "reasonable man" should be able to ascertain that fact.

Generally agree, though the external circumstances regarding general peace and order may have nothing to do with that - e.g., that phraseology would give the cops a legal basis for demanding identification of witnesses in the event of a traffic collision.

I checked all the Northern Va. and Northern Piedmont jurisdictions that have their codes listed on Municipal Code Corporation's website. Most have no such ordinance. The exceptions are below. Unless someone wants to pay the big bucks to have me challenge such an ordinance, and given the spotty character of where and when these things pop up, I stick to my prior advice. Go ahead and tell them your name and address, and then promptly turn and walk away.

Manassas: Sec. 78-311 - Loitering

(paragraph c) Identification. It shall be unlawful for any person at a public place or place open to the public to refuse to identify himself by name and address at the request of a uniformed police officer or of a properly identified police officer not in uniform, if the surrounding circumstances are such as to indicate to a reasonable person that the public safety requires such identification.

Manassas Park: Sec. 17-15. Loitering prohibited.

(paragraph b) [Identification.] It shall be unlawful for any person at a public place or place open to the public to refuse to furnish a proper form of identification or otherwise properly identify himself by name and address to a uniformed police officer or properly identified police officer not in uniform if the surrounding circumstances are such as to indicate to a resaonable person that the public safety requires such identification.

Town of Haymarket, Pr. Wm. Co.
Sec. 30-11. Identification.

It shall be unlawful for any person at a public place or place open to the public to refuse to identify himself by name and address at the request of a uniformed police officer or of a properly identified police officer not in uniform, if the surrounding circumstances are such as to indicate to a reasonable person that the public safety requires such identification. Any person violating this section shall be guilty of a class 1 misdemeanor and punished as provided by law.

 

[peter nap]

Memorable responses to Police Questioning from the past:

Cop: Hey kid. Why do you wear sunglasses at night?
Because when you're cool, the sun shine on you 24 hours a day.

Detective Nulty: What's your name, cowboy?
Robert Roberts, Esquire to you, honky!

 

[wylde007]

My Science Project

One of my favorite movies from my youth. Love that flick.

"I hooked it up last time. You hook it up."

Classic.

 

[TFred]

That's because there isn't one. Check again if you like:

http://library.municode.com/index.aspx?clientId=14013&stateId=46&stateName=Virginia

Btw, what Wylde007 said - "There is none in "Virginia" which means that independent localities/municipalities may adopt ordinances." - isn't entirely correct. There has to be a grant of power by charter or general law in order to authorize a city or county to do anything. There are no "independent localities/municipalities" in Virginia; each and every municipal corporation is subordinate to the Commonwealth.

So the obvious next question is, where in the Code of Virginia does it authorize localities to enact such an ordinance?

2nd question... would a person with an uncommon name be required to spell it for them?

TFred

 

[wylde007]

The wording might lead one to believe that such an request could only be made in the course of an officer investigating a crime or such "circumstances", however so loosely contained in the ordinance.

It does not appear that an officer can just go about "demanding identification" willy-nilly and for any reason whatsoever.

As to your second question, I suppose that could easily be a discretionary response - on either party. Personally, if the cop cannot figure out how to spell your name, it is not your problem, but the cop's... except that cops sometimes like to make their problems "your" problems.

 

[user]

So the obvious next question is, where in the Code of Virginia does it authorize localities to enact such an ordinance?...

Counties:

§ 15.2-1200. General powers of counties. — Any county may adopt such measures as it deems expedient to secure and promote the health, safety and general welfare of its inhabitants which are not inconsistent with the general laws of the Commonwealth. Such power shall include, but shall not be limited to, the adoption of quarantine regulations affecting both persons and animals, the adoption of necessary regulations to prevent the spread of contagious diseases among persons or animals and the adoption of regulations for the prevention of the pollution of water which is dangerous to the health or lives of persons residing in the county.

-----
Cities and Towns:

§ 15.2-1102. General grant of power; enumeration of powers not exclusive; limitations on exercise of power. — A municipal corporation shall have and may exercise all powers which it now has or which may hereafter be conferred upon or delegated to it under the Constitution and laws of the Commonwealth and all other powers pertinent to the conduct of the affairs and functions of the municipal government, the exercise of which is not expressly prohibited by the Constitution and the general laws of the Commonwealth, and which are necessary or desirable to secure and promote the general welfare of the inhabitants of the municipality and the safety, health, peace, good order, comfort, convenience, morals, trade, commerce and industry of the municipality and the inhabitants thereof, and the enumeration of specific powers shall not be construed or held to be exclusive or as a limitation upon any general grant of power, but shall be construed and held to be in addition to any general grant of power. The exercise of the powers conferred under this section is specifically limited to the area within the corporate limits of the municipality, unless otherwise conferred in the applicable sections of the Constitution and general laws, as amended, of the Commonwealth.

 

[TFred]

Counties:


-----
Cities and Towns:

Interesting, thank you for the references!

It would seem that these go a long way toward watering down the Dillon Rule status of Virginia. And also explains why 15.2-915 is needed for firearms related ordinances.

TFred

 

[wrightme]

Now, given that "power", I am still of the mind that this may not fit the terms required of Hiibel.

 

[JamesB]

Hey, it's my dream... my snowman does belly flops; besides, there ain't no abominable snowman, except in that Rudolph the Reindeer movie; and, what about "Quinn the Eskimo"? Speaking of which, all the people I've represented who would go by the title, "snowman" have been somewhat abominable. The sort of people who think that, if they lie to me, they're going to get better representation. I guess if they'd'a had brains they wouldn't have gotten caught selling "snow".

OMG, can it be that user got so smart by reading GI Joe comics? or an I reading too much of them myself?

 

[user]

Now, given that "power", I am still of the mind that this may not fit the terms required of Hiibel.

I think I've said that several times already. The cops have to have reasonable suspicion to start interrogating a person in a context in which he is not free to leave (i.e., "detained"). They don't have to tell anyone what that suspicion is, and it can change between that time and the time the case gets to court. So you have a perfect right to "stand on your rights" and insist that the cops scrupulously obey the law. Just be sure to carry one of my cards in your wallet at all times, and when (notice I didn't say, "if") they arrest you, say, "I want my lawyer!" Make sure you've got at least a couple thousand dollars laying around, too, just in case of such an eventuality.

Best thing is, don't get arrested. Having a good, arguable defense at trial is no guarantee of success at trial, and you're much better off not going to trial.

Btw, Wrightme in Nevada, I'm beginning to think you're a cop who's on a trolling mission. The more you can get other people to be "unco-operative", the more chance you and your buddies will have to beat up on some otherwise law-abiding citizen, right?

 

[user]

OMG, can it be that user got so smart by reading GI Joe comics? or an I reading too much of them myself?

That line was from a song that was out when I was in, like, ninth grade. "When Quinn the Eskimo gets here, everybody's going to want a dose. Come on without; come on within; you'll not see nothing like the mighty Quinn." A song about the informal, social use of cocaine.

I got my smarts by reading Sgt. Rock, not G.I. Joe ("Banzai!! Banzai!!). My oldest boy, now a father himself, came into the house once and said, "Daddy! I want some of that djye-oh stuff!" The next door neighbor's kid had some G.I.Joe "action figures" with accessories. He did have a "Transformer" action figure that turned into a toy, chrome-plated 1911 .45 ACP. Can't get 'em like that anymore. I remember when Barbie dolls first came out; I was writing some of the very first satellite network control system software when G.I.Joe hit the shelves.

Not to mention Batman, Archie, Superman, Aquaman, the Justice League of America, and my favorite (I'm going to have to see the movie), Green Lantern.

In brightest day,
in darkest night;
let those who worship evil's might,
beware my power,
Green Lantern's Light!!!.

I inherited boxes of comics from my uncles and had a copy of the very first original Batman. They all vanished when I went away to college. I learned to read comics by the time I was four, and that's why I flunked reading in first grade. We sat around in a circle reading about "see puff run; funny, funny,spot. see spot run; funny, funny, puff." By the time they got to me, I'd finished the book, and no one ever told me I was supposed to keep track. So the teacher assumed I was an idiot and flunked me.

Funny, people (like our friend, Mr. Poindexter) still assume I'm an idiot.

I have so much fun with that. Is it wrong?

 

[wrightme]

I think I've said that several times already. The cops have to have reasonable suspicion to start interrogating a person in a context in which he is not free to leave (i.e., "detained"). They don't have to tell anyone what that suspicion is, and it can change between that time and the time the case gets to court. So you have a perfect right to "stand on your rights" and insist that the cops scrupulously obey the law. Just be sure to carry one of my cards in your wallet at all times, and when (notice I didn't say, "if") they arrest you, say, "I want my lawyer!" Make sure you've got at least a couple thousand dollars laying around, too, just in case of such an eventuality.

Best thing is, don't get arrested. Having a good, arguable defense at trial is no guarantee of success at trial, and you're much better off not going to trial.

I do understand your stance, and your advice. But, it seems you are moving to an adversarial position in this conversation, and that is neither my desire, nor my aim. As it seems that my role here is being misunderstood, my interest in this topic is strictly as an academic discussion, and I am not advocating any specific type of actions. BUT, I am having this discussion because the specifics I see in Hiibel, against the specifics presented in VA law, show unchallenged contradictions. I do NOT point this out to get anyone to be in trouble, but to see what is actually written down, and where it is written down.

Btw, Wrightme in Nevada, I'm beginning to think you're a cop who's on a trolling mission. The more you can get other people to be "unco-operative", the more chance you and your buddies will have to beat up on some otherwise law-abiding citizen, right?

IANAL as I have mentioned. Also, I am MOST DEFINITELY NOT LE.


In case that has not become clear, I am NOT a cop of any sort. I am a citizen who advocates OC and fully supports the Second Amendment among other Rights. I am also the webmaster for our local firearms association, http://www.stillwaterfirearms.org/


While I can understand WHY you took the stance you have with me, let me assure you without question that I am most emphatically NOT what you seem to think I am.

 

[wrightme]

Now, with that said user, can you point to a SINGLE POST where I have encouraged ANYONE to take ANY sort of action?

 

[user]

Now, with that said user, can you point to a SINGLE POST where I have encouraged ANYONE to take ANY sort of action?

Nope; I accept your representation. Besides, it's too much like work.

 

[JamesB]

I got my smarts by reading Sgt. Rock, not G.I. Joe ("Banzai!! Banzai!!). My oldest boy, now a father himself, came into the house once and said, "Daddy! I want some of that djye-oh stuff!" The next door neighbor's kid had some G.I.Joe "action figures" with accessories. He did have a "Transformer" action figure that turned into a toy, chrome-plated 1911 .45 ACP. Can't get 'em like that anymore. I remember when Barbie dolls first came out; I was writing some of the very first satellite network control system software when G.I.Joe hit the shelves.

Not to mention Batman, Archie, Superman, Aquaman, the Justice League of America, and my favorite (I'm going to have to see the movie), Green Lantern. I inherited boxes of comics from my uncles and had a copy of the very first original Batman. They all vanished when I went away to college. I have so much fun with that. Is it wrong?

User,
That "transformer" toy was the original Megatron. He turned into a Walther P-38. And just for the...

http://cgi.ebay.com/MEGATRON-Transf...027?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item588e0888cb

you can get 'em if you know where to look.

Waiting for the GL movie here too. Eagerly awaiting missing Thor. But Green Lantern, for that I'll go to the theatre.

 

[wylde007]

That line was from a song that was out when I was in, like, ninth grade. "When Quinn the Eskimo gets here, everybody's going to want a dose. Come on without; come on within; you'll not see nothing like the mighty Quinn." A song about the informal, social use of cocaine.

OT:

Despite the illicit undertones, still a great song.

Manfred Mann and the Rare Earth Band, I think?

 

[MKEgal]

Apprehension of the citizen? Wasn't the Leo in uniform? That should end apprehension.
I don't know why you must criticize positive encounters by police.

Knowing of the abuses far too many uniformed LEOs commit against law-abiding citizens, no, seeing a uniformed LEO does not reduce my apprehension (unless there's a lot of them & I've called for help solving a problem; then it reduces my apprehension about the original problem because I have lots of armed backup).

And I don't see the OP as a positive encounter. A positive encounter would have been no encounter, or the officer not asking for ID without RAS of a crime. (That being the law.)

...I flunked reading in first grade. We sat around in a circle reading... By the time they got to me, I'd finished the book, and no one ever told me I was supposed to keep track. So the teacher assumed I was an idiot and flunked me.

OMG! You're just like me! Only they didn't flunk me, they tossed me up a grade.

My school didn't expect kindergartners to be reading, & the teacher didn't like it when I read the directions on the coloring paper we were supposed to do, & pointed out that she hadn't read the paper right. (Obviously it wasn't just one instance...)

Funny, people (like our friend, Mr. Poindexter) still assume I'm an idiot.
I have so much fun with that. Is it wrong?

Not wrong at all. Allowing people to underestimate you can be good tactics.
And it is enjoyable, in a schadenfreude [sp?] sort of way, when their bad judgment comes back to bite them in the gluteus maximus. Hoping Mr. Poindexter's will be well-documented for all of us to share.

 

[wylde007]

(unless there's a lot of them & I've called for help solving a problem; then it reduces my apprehension about the original problem because I have lots of armed backup).

Ask Hendu024 how he feels about this subject. I bet you'll change your mind, and quick.

A positive encounter would have been no encounter, or the officer not asking for ID without RAS of a crime. (That being the law.)

^^^ That.