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Boston....was there exigent circumstance?

EMNofSeattle

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Aug 7, 2012
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Hahhahahahahahaahahaha!!

Just because the Nazi's murdered millions (the worst), suddenly SVG's comment is wrong?

Notice how our college boy had to shift from SVGs comparative "in many cases much worse" to a superlative (photos of murdered millions).

EMN couldn't even argue the same point, so he had to go and change it. Hahahahahahahahaha!!

I think a country that retains the legal right to permantly intern you in concentration camps and kill certain people outright by the millions then they are worse in everyway, because what's the potential for a society to be worse then that? only a country that kills more people can be considered worse.

Because if a country has already given themselves that right (to kill millions with no review or justification) you can't say "well the average german was never rounded up and didn't have to stop at DUI checkpoints so they were better that way" no because the precedent was set that they could choose to kill whoever they wanted. a society that sanctioned killing millions of people for nothing other then their race or ethnic background is worse in every way then a society that does not.
 

WalkingWolf

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North Carolina
Some people like to forget that we rounded up Japanese Americans just like Nazi Germany rounded up Jews, and we put them in camps. The tactics used were the same as the police in Boston.

History is very important to our future...
 

EMNofSeattle

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Some people like to forget that we rounded up Japanese Americans just like Nazi Germany rounded up Jews, and we put them in camps. The tactics used were the same as the police in Boston.

History is very important to our future...

And that was wrong and should never have been done, but there are many differences between Japanese internment and the nazi internment.

First off, it was not just the japanese who were interned, italian and German immigrants were interned as well. I've been to the camp at Fort Missoula in Montana where the Italians on the West Coast were held. The law, was called the Enemy Aliens Act, which was passed in 1798....

Second, internees were well fed and recieved medical attention when needed

Third, many japanese-americans were never interned, and in most cases were allowed to opt to move off the West Coast. the "Exclusion Zone" was the states of Washington, Oregon, California, and Western Arizona. The Japanese were given until February of 1942 to move out of the exclusion zone.

fourth, the US Government eventually reimbursed all detainees, and by 1944 virtually all internees had been released to the East Coast where they worked on farms, joined the service, or worked in war industries for the ETO.

Fifth, many of the japanese americans interned were not citizens because of anti-asian laws made to prevent asians from becoming citizens, following world war 2 citizenship was granted to most of these people.

Finally motivation, the US did not intern people as a policy of "ethnic cleansing" or "the final solution" it was seen as measure of military nessesity to protect the war effort (during a declared period of war that we entered as a result of the home country conducting an outright military attack prior to declaration of war) and military and industrial base from a percieved "5th column" while misguided and wrong.....

it is ridicolous to compare internment to the nazi regime.
 
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marshaul

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Aug 13, 2007
Messages
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Fairfax County, Virginia
Godwin's law is just that given enough time any online discussion can draw comparisons to the nazis (which it seems we're proving pretty well)
I was actually thinking of Leo Strauss's Reducto ad Hitlerum a subset of association fallacy.

Nah. You're gonna have to do better than that to play at this table. :lol:

Right off the bat:

According to Strauss, the Reductio ad Hitlerum is an informal fallacy that consists of trying to refute an opponent's view by comparing it to a view that would be held by Adolf Hitler or the Nazi Party.

It's a form of ad hominem. Now, did I say anything about you being a Nazi to discredit your arguments?

Moreover,

However, invocation of reductio ad Hitlerum or (particularly on the internet) the related Godwin's Law may not be out of line where such a comparison is reasonable (for example, in discussions of dangers involved in eugenics or tolerance of racist and nationalist political parties). In such contexts, the belittling and dismissal of an opponent's argument on this basis becomes its own form of association fallacy and ad hominem attack.

Oh. Look at that. Looks like someone, not understanding what a fallacy actually is, committed one of their own. The irony! :lol:



well it depends upon your definition of police state. any modern society is going to have police state attributes, it's as simple as that.

lol. What kind of logic is that? Talk about logical fallacies:

Appeal to common practice

To that degree security theater is often used, in fact it's very effective. security theatre is not meant to stop crime or certain activity, it's meant to 1) deter low-level offenders and 2) make people feel safe enough to be out in public working and starting businesses and being productive. just the other day I was with a friend in Downtown Seattle, while everyone was tuned in to the evolving manhunt for the boston suspect on friday, police were everywhere in Seattle. we went to the the Russell building (a 40 floor skyscraper with an open air garden on the 17th floor) and there was an SPD officer at the security desk. we saw Seattle police officers on foot at Westlake mall, and pike place market, bicycle officers everwhere in the down town corridor, and king county sheriff's deputies posted in the transit tunnel. normally all these places only have private security at the entrance. Does the city actually think something will happen? of course not! it's all theater to make people feel safe enough to be in town.... and it's very effective at that....

Hahaha! You really have drunk all the kool-aid, haven't you? Suffice it to say I reject your arguments entirely.

A: Security theater does not work. Proof: 9/11. We had security theater then. Not much different from today, although they grope you more for the sake of... theatrics.

Security theater is nothing more than the attempt of worthless and otherwise-unemployable TSA types to justify their jobs, and government to justify its existence. That's it. It has no utility, no efficacy, no goal, no ability to function.

B: So, it's the job of the government to make people "feel" safe? Maybe we should ban open carry, then. After all, some people don't "feel" safe around guns.

C: I leave when I see cops. The police don't make any intelligent person "feel safe". In fact, I'll come right out and say that every single person I encounter regularly shares my view in this regard.
 
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marshaul

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Fairfax County, Virginia
it is ridicolous to compare internment to the nazi regime.

Why? Because the only evil thing the Nazis did was kill Jews?

Sorry to break it to you and every other fawning sycophant of the state, but the simple act of interning people for who they are is evil. The Nazis interned plenty of people who were never gassed (and were never planned to be gassed). This was evil in and of itself – no need to appeal to the greater evil of mass murder.

Japanese internment was evil. And you know what? You defended it. That says more than all your blundering arguments ever could.
 
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wrearick

Regular Member
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Mar 6, 2013
Messages
650
Location
Virginia Beach, Va.
That happen to you? Wait, you're imagining what could happen, as opposed to what happened. I follow you though.

Of course firearm owners would be strapped. It appears, by what I've seen, and by considering the totality of information consumed, these two men were trained, and ready for a fight. I would be happy to look out my window and see officers on the streets looking for these guys, going door-to-door making sure there were no hostage situations...but that's just me.

did you watcht the video? Did you see how the occupants of that house were treated? I doubt that the police officer's would have accepted my word that no bad guys were in the house and we were not hostages even though I was still in possession of my fire arm.

I agree with you to a point but think the police went to far and folks really didn't have a choice on a volunatry search, but that is just my opinion, no hard facts to back it up.
 

SouthernBoy

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May 12, 2007
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Western Prince William County, Virginia, USA
Close but not quite. It would be the threat of lethal force. This may still qualify as an assault depending upon the laws of the state in which it occurs, I believe.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

As soon as someone points a gun at you, you may open fire until the threat is neutralized (I am assuming the other two criteria have been met and you are honestly the innocent party). Not talking police with this, but there are even situations where you would be within your rights to fire on police (think acting illegally under the color of law). There was a case some years ago in Fairfax County where a homeowner fired at police. He was exonerated in court but the judge made it clear he was not fond of the idea of citizens shooting at police. The immediate case that comes to mind would be that rogue LEO in Canton, Ohio, formerly from Virginia, who threatened to shoot a motorist... not the first time for this bastard. Suppose he took this to the nearly end conclusion? What would you think he was about to do to you?
 
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wrearick

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Yeah, looks to me like contemporary america is much, much worse then nazi germany.....

care to say that again?

Please note that the date on the German Picture was 1938. Things were bad and got much worse, (because good people 'believed' the government was right and did not complain). What I saw in the video struck ME as Bad - Not equal to Germany at it's worst but bad none the less. NO ONE (IMHO) on this forum would like to see the US fall to the level of dehumanization that occurred in Germany, but those that don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it. All folks are saying is "Was all of this really neccessary?" If things went to far (in some cases) let's get the authorities to admit it and put in place policies, practices, procedures, (whatever the correct phrase is) to prevent it from going to far in the future. America's enemies did not cease to exist with these two young men removed from the populace. We ARE going to face additional terrorist acts in the future (no I am not a mind reader) and we as a society will have to deal with future 'events' like this. Let's try and do it without throwing all of personal rights out the window or someone getting shot because there were no clear rules of engagement for these unique situations. What is wrong with wanting to learn from this event and do better next time? I can not believe there is anyone who was involved in this massive effort that would claim EVERYTHING went perfectly and according to the rules set up for situations like this. Police are human and have emotions. I don't want to string anyone up but I also don't want a police officer, who hasn't thought out "likely" situations in advance to have to live with shooting an innocent because he opened the door on his own house with a gun in view of the officer.
 

Fallschirjmäger

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There's a rule about not bashing other forums, and especially one about bashing occupations (especially military or police) so I'm not going to mention or even give a hint as to what forum it was posted. I'm not even going to quote directly so there aren't any web searches. That said, feel free to take this with a grain of unproven, non-iodized salt.

Essentially the point of the poster's comment was "They needed to be cordially invited outside for tea and cookies so that the officers could determine that the terrorist wasn't behind the door pointing a gun at the person's head and telling them to make the bad policemen go away. It was fully justified because they didn't know."

You don't know that the hon--, err, cracker driving a BMW in a nice black neighborhood didn't steal the car.
You don't know that the man holding the young girl's hand isn't a pedophile luring an innocent girl home to bake cookies.
You don't know that the woman writing something on a piece of paper isn't making out a ransom demand or penning a bank robbery note either.

Its NOT what you 'don't know' it's what you can 'reasonably suspect."
 
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palerider116

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Nov 14, 2010
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Unknown
That's about the stupidest thing I've seen all day. you literally win a prize, where can I mail it too?

oh don't read this part...

but apparently they had cars in nazi germany too, and hospitals, and roads, and even trees. damn nazi spies are growing everywhere in my town!

You can keep the prize.

What you see in the Boston event is a relatively small attack. It's obscured by the media propaganda machine on top of it. Two individuals ran around planting multiple devices and no one noticed it - sell it to me again. Nosy people call things in all day long. A small attack in the hall of records, though horrific.

Now let us fast forward to the manhunt. You have a "lock down." It's like the little brother to martial law. The police and MPs, all of the alphabet soup agencies have pictures and names. Yet, they are stopping people for identification purposes who clearly look different or are a different race or sex.

No problem? At all? That's not even policing; that is subjection.

You see, sometimes bad things happen. A policing model should be employed that protects all of the rights of the citizens while in the pursuit of justice. There will be times where there may be impositions, e.g. "Ma'am, please stay inside because the armed bombing suspect just ran through your backyard into your neighbor's." Good call. You have an actualized threat and a specific operating area.

Where's Waldo police style didn't get the job done. After the "lock down" (is that like being grounded by government?) is lifted, a diligent citizen found the suspect by sheer virtue of policing his own property.

So I win stupid prize for the picture, thank you. This is just the harbinger of things to come. If you accept the narrative two people were responsible for all of this mayhem, 3 or 4 will be a doozy.

1938 was a walk in the park for Nazi Germany.

2013. What will the history books record about us?
 

nonameisgood

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Nothing done during the lockdown and manhunt did anything to capture the suspect EXCEPT the publicity about reporting unusual things.

Shooting the fish in the barrel was as unsafe and improper as things get. You know where he is, and you could easily have sniped him, you did not need ANYONE else shooting at the boat.

Overreaction was the theme of the day, and we should not let them get away without answering for that. The hornet's nest was stirred, and we let the hornets run free, when the proper course of action would be to have restraint and use proper tactics not excessive force. But this is what happens when an officer gets killed, every time. This is not a war zone and we should not allow it to be treated like one. (This from the guy who chastises people for not being willing to fight like its their life.) Reminds me of Dorner and the LA fiasco, which obviously didn't change behaviors.

(A guy involved in a shooting a mile from my house was stopped on my street. In the commotion that followed, he ran, and hid under a car across the street. From there he called his family and said he was under a car with a stomach wound and two handguns. PD found the guns but not him under the car a few minutes later. Do crooks frequently hide under and in things like this?)
 

countryclubjoe

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nothing done during the lockdown and manhunt did anything to capture the suspect except the publicity about reporting unusual things.

Shooting the fish in the barrel was as unsafe and improper as things get. You know where he is, and you could easily have sniped him, you did not need anyone else shooting at the boat. I wonder if the homeowner would of been charged had he shot and killed the alleged bomber in the boat?


Overreaction was the theme of the day, and we should not let them get away without answering for that. The hornet's nest was stirred, and we let the hornets run free, when the proper course of action would be to have restraint and use proper tactics not excessive force. But this is what happens when an officer gets killed, every time. This is not a war zone and we should not allow it to be treated like one. (this from the guy who chastises people for not being willing to fight like its their life.) reminds me of dorner and the la fiasco, which obviously didn't change behaviors.

(a guy involved in a shooting a mile from my house was stopped on my street. In the commotion that followed, he ran, and hid under a car across the street. From there he called his family and said he was under a car with a stomach wound and two handguns. Pd found the guns but not him under the car a few minutes later. Do crooks frequently hide under and in things like this?)

tia

ccj
 

Fallschirjmäger

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A decade ago, police shot at American citizens fleeing Hurricane Katrina, killing two people on the Danziger Bridge.

Last year, police surrounded an intersection in Aurora, Colorado because someone robbed a bank. Nineteen cars were stopped and every adult was handcuffed while the police apprehended a single bank robber that they could not identify but 'had a reliable tip" for.

Yesterday, police in body armor and carrying automatic weapons who were searching for a lone terrorist, forced hundreds to remain in their homes before surrounding their homes and dragging people at gunpoint from them.

Just think, what will tomorrow bring?
 
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countryclubjoe

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Anyone think the police would of charged the homeowner with a crime if said homeowner shot and killed the alleged bomber in the boat?

TIA

CCJ
 

crazydude6030

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Jan 20, 2009
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Fairfax, va
Anyone think the police would of charged the homeowner with a crime if said homeowner shot and killed the alleged bomber in the boat?

TIA

CCJ

I was thinking about that today. What if someone saw the shootout with those two and flanked them and took them out. I wonder what the news and cops had done and said
 
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