Boston PD to monitor police cars by GPS tracking... officers don't like it

[Reasonable]

Swearing can be a tool to gain control of a hostile situation.

If any of you scholars are married think back to when your spouse swore at you and your reaction.



IF you are truly wronged file a complaint.

 

[Fuller Malarkey]

If fallacies were fouls, you'd be out of the game.

"Our entire society has some bad apples in it."

The adage isn't "Well, there's always gonna be a few bad apples". That was something cooked up by used car salesmen to overcome objections to some fairly obvious shortcomings in some hard to sell junk.

The metaphor goes like this: "Even a few bad apples will quickly ruin the whole barrel”. And there's some wisdom behind that. The rot quickly spreads to the good ones. The implication is that bad apples must be removed immediately, because they are worse for the system than they appear. It’s a justification for full, intense attention to the beginnings of corruption in a human system, and for making that attention the duty of the highest urgency.

That you got to "well, there's a few everywhere" as a logical conclusion is not to be ignored, it could be a glaring indicator that you are either not serious or are in conversations that are way over your head. Your use of it seems to justify little personal accountability [others do it] and excuse the managerial failure of the entity you are part of [we got bad apples...so's everybody else. And we're OK with it"].

 

[Primus]

If fallacies were fouls, you'd be out of the game.

"Our entire society has some bad apples in it."

The adage isn't "Well, there's always gonna be a few bad apples". That was something cooked up by used car salesmen to overcome objections to some fairly obvious shortcomings in some hard to sell junk.

The metaphor goes like this: "Even a few bad apples will quickly ruin the whole barrel”. And there's some wisdom behind that. The rot quickly spreads to the good ones. The implication is that bad apples must be removed immediately, because they are worse for the system than they appear. It’s a justification for full, intense attention to the beginnings of corruption in a human system, and for making that attention the duty of the highest urgency.

That you got to "well, there's a few everywhere" as a logical conclusion is not to be ignored, it could be a glaring indicator that you are either not serious or are in conversations that are way over your head. Your use of it seems to justify personal accountability [others do it] and excuse the managerial failure of the entity you are part of [we got bad apples...so's everybody else. And we're OK with it"].

What? Out of a long post you pull a 9 word phrase and say I quoted and misused it? Then accuse me of being over my head or making excuses? Really?

How about reponding the PREMISE. The point was to lay out examples so you could look past the exact wording and get the idea. The PREMISE is that society has bad people in it. LEOs are pulled from society. So should be no suprise there are bad people a LEOs. There is no way to weed all of them out before they get sworn in (although they try with back ground checks, interviews, interview your family, friends and neighbors, psych evals, etc.).

If you disbelieve this premise and think otherwise, then respond and say so. To attack a very specific phrase isn't productive....

 

[Grapeshot]

--snipped--

The metaphor goes like this: "Even a few bad apples will quickly ruin the whole barrel”. And there's some wisdom behind that. The rot quickly spreads to the good ones. The implication is that bad apples must be removed immediately, because they are worse for the system than they appear. It’s a justification for full, intense attention to the beginnings of corruption in a human system, and for making that attention the duty of the highest urgency.

While the original meaning of the idiom is accurate, the current popularly understood meaning is of equal relevance. Doubt seriously that the use has been misunderstood here.

Indeed, there is also no reason to dump the whole barrel. Think that a better analogy might be to weed the garden - just don't use a herbicide.

 

[davidmcbeth]

While the original meaning of the idiom is accurate, the current popularly understood meaning is of equal relevance. Doubt seriously that the use has been misunderstood here.

Indeed, there is also no reason to dump the whole barrel. Think that a better analogy might be to weed the garden - just don't use a herbicide.

I think the barrel could be a lot smaller though .... we have way too many cops ... from just a cost standpoint .... I'd say, slash in 1/2 on average would do nicely.

 

[sudden valley gunner]

While the original meaning of the idiom is accurate, the current popularly understood meaning is of equal relevance. Doubt seriously that the use has been misunderstood here.

Indeed, there is also no reason to dump the whole barrel. Think that a better analogy might be to weed the garden - just don't use a herbicide.

The barrel is rotten. And until it is restructured and minimized it will continue to attract certain apples to it.

 

[eye95]

This metaphor is becoming horribly strained.


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<o>

 

[sudden valley gunner]

This metaphor is becoming horribly strained.


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<o>

Then counter it. And tell cops to stop using it, as pointed out they forget the rest of the saying. They also keep trying to circle it back to the private sector which it can and never will equate.

 

[eye95]

Saying that is has been strained has nothing to do with countering or supporting it. It is an observation that the metaphor is being contorted in ways that strain it.

Moving on.

BTW, "then" not "than."


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<o>

 

[sudden valley gunner]

Saying that is has been strained has nothing to do with countering or supporting it. It is an observation that the metaphor is being contorted in ways that strain it.

Moving on.

BTW, "then" not "than."


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<o>

I had caught my mistake and corrected it before your admonishing.

I understand your point, it will stop being used when cops stop using it wrongly.

 

[Grapeshot]

The barrel is rotten. And until it is restructured and minimized it will continue to attract certain apples to it.

That is perceived as LEO bashing which is a known violation of Forum Rules. Please do not contunue further down this path.

 

[Citizen]

This metaphor is becoming horribly strained.


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<o>

Ooo. Applesauce. Lumpy applesauce.

 

[Citizen]

[The barrel is rotten] is perceived as LEO bashing which is a known violation of Forum Rules. Please do not contunue further down this path.

Maybe that's how its perceived by cop-apologists.

I perceived it to be a metaphor for the interlocking protection racket for bad cops--the Blue Wall of Silence, unions, union contracts, unjustified credibility assigned to cops by prosecutors and judges, qualified immunity, the good faith exception, and so forth.

Its a metaphor for ******* sake! Now we're enforcing metaphors!!

The moderator is now using a similar tactic to athiests fighting religion on 1A grounds of separation of church and state. "The church and state must be separate!!" They're taking a metaphor Thomas Jefferson invented in a letter to the (Danbury Baptist Church?) wherein he remarked the founders had created a wall of separation between the church and state. Today the ******** athiests are trying to enforce the metaphor instead.

So, here's our moderator decrying a ******** metaphor!! instead of something that actually does violate the forum rules. And, he knows he's making a stretch. Why? Because he had to preface his comment with "that is perceived."

 

[eye95]

Ooo. Applesauce. Lumpy applesauce.

Ya know, as soon as I posted that, I told myself that some wiseass was going to mention applesauce. I see my faith in humanity has not failed me!

As I always say, better to be a wiseass than a dumbass!


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<o>

 

[sudden valley gunner]

That is perceived as LEO bashing which is a known violation of Forum Rules. Please do not contunue further down this path.

The system is bad is all that is saying, it does not mean there are no good cops. Just because the few apologist don't like the it being pointed out there are major problems with unconstitutional policing does not mean it equates to "cop bashing".

 

[Grapeshot]

Maybe that's how its perceived by cop-apologists.

I perceived it to be a metaphor for the interlocking protection racket for bad cops--the Blue Wall of Silence, unions, union contracts, unjustified credibility assigned to cops by prosecutors and judges, qualified immunity, the good faith exception, and so forth.

Its a metaphor for ******* sake! Now we're enforcing metaphors!!

The moderator is now using a similar tactic to athiests fighting religion on 1A grounds of separation of church and state. "The church and state must be separate!!" They're taking a metaphor Thomas Jefferson invented in a letter to the (Danbury Baptist Church?) wherein he remarked the founders had created a wall of separation between the church and state. Today the ******** athiests are trying to enforce the metaphor instead.

So, here's our moderator decrying a ******** metaphor!! instead of something that actually does violate the forum rules. And, he knows he's making a stretch. Why? Because he had to preface his comment with "that is perceived."

Anger management problem? Making a mountain out of a molehill?

Yes, it was a soft handed suggestion/request - saw nothing egregious to dictate a called decision.

You know what to expect from continued tirades/rants on this subject - no good reason to have history repeat itself here.

 

[Grapeshot]

The system is bad is all that is saying, it does not mean there are no good cops. Just because the few apologist don't like the it being pointed out there are major problems with unconstitutional policing does not mean it equates to "cop bashing".

I understand that, and didn't mean to come across so harsh to you - witness the "please." Sorry if I caused any embarrassment.

Was as much or more for others on the forum.

 

[Fuller Malarkey]

What? Out of a long post you pull a 9 word phrase and say I quoted and misused it? Then accuse me of being over my head or making excuses? Really?

Actually, I didn't say that. You did. Taking posts out of context is a violation of forum rules some places. And I accused you of nothing, did I? Reading are hard. Please notice the use of the qualifier phrase "glaring indicator" before any mention of some of the possible errors in logic you might embark on.

How about reponding the PREMISE. The point was to lay out examples so you could look past the exact wording and get the idea. The PREMISE is that society has bad people in it. LEOs are pulled from society.

I addressed this. I can't help it if you don't "see through to the end" your contentions and use metaphors that make my point, and undermine your own. You want to hang on to the "well everybody has a few bad apples". OK. Stick with that. Let's look at

"LEOs are pulled from society. So should be no suprise there are bad people a LEOs."

Airline pilots are pulled from society also. There seems to be a method of weeding out the blind ones, the one's that can't fly, are a danger to others. We just aren't seeing too many cases of pilots-gone-commando, kicking open the cabin hatch and going SGT Fury on the passengers. We aren't. And those pilots come from society. While we see some meltdowns, some irresponsible alcohol intake, maybe some directionally challenged pilots, we do see occupational accountability and we DO NOT see the forming of a industry wall of silence that refuses to divulge why a plane went down.

Structural engineers come from society too. We don't have many bridges going down because the engineer is just human. Engineers have checks and balances, standards, things that qualify them to have the responsibility they have. We don't see too many liability lawsuits beginning with the defense "Society is comprised of bad apples. Our Engineer is just a product of our society, and cannot be held accountable".

So should be no suprise there are bad people a LEOs. There is no way to weed all of them out before they get sworn in (although they try with back ground checks, interviews, interview your family, friends and neighbors, psych evals, etc.).

If you disbelieve this premise and think otherwise, then respond and say so. To attack a very specific phrase isn't productive....

I believe your premise is built on logical fallacies and is false.

My responses in bold [strike]and red.[/strike]

 

[Reasonable]

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...&mid=3C86EC7C860344A369B33C86EC7C860344A369B3

 

[Primus]

http://www.sacbee.com/2013/05/18/5431401/corrosion-plagues-new-bay-bridge.html

This is for your example since you brought up engineers and buildings....

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-01-08/bottle-to-throttle-a-short-history-of-drunk-pilots

That one is about your drinking pilots.

My premise and point was simpley that EVERY profession has people who screw up. Period. We could literally sit here all night and go back and forth with examples of every profession having someone who jacks something up. But again, LEOs are the only one you cry out to be treated with a certain "attitude".

Also, you failed to acknowledge anything I said about the EMTs, Doctors, Teachers, etc. They all have unions also and they seem to be in the news more and more. So do you guys think the ENTIRE medical field needs to be stripped because of those Doctors and EMTs? New education all across the country to strip the unions and weed out the pedophiles?