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Bad Intercity Transit! Bad! Bad!

sv_libertarian

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Massivedesign; I wouldn't be surprised if IT has gone hands off again. I've seen a few interesting altercations down there, and all I've ever seen the security do was the "stop or I'll say stop again" routine.
 

gogodawgs

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Federal Way, Washington, USA
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END_THE_FED wrote:
amzbrady wrote:
Question? As unarmed security, If you see someone steal something from a store, do you or can you, give chase,tackle, detain, and handcuff them?
Depends on the situation and on company policy.

Legally speaking for the most part security has no more authority to arrest then anyone else. (must witness a felony)
one exception to this is If you are working for a retail store and have probable cause that someone has stolen something you can detain them by reasonable means on the store property or in the immediate area, but the same goes for anyone who works for the store not just security.

I have stopped dozens and dozens in 20 years of retail. I am the manager and have the same authority as unarmed security (which I have never had at a store I have worked for).

"Probable cause" is not a guiding principle in detaining someone. At least not that terminology.

There are 5 elements of an arrest: (to hold up in court)

1) You must see the suspect enter the area (aisle, section) without the item in their hand.

2) You must see the suspect take the item from the shelf and must be able to identify the item.

3) You must see the suspect conceal the item. (some suspects don't conceal they just walk out with the item in plain view)

4) You must NEVER lose sight of the suspect. (This is the most difficult)

5) You must witness the suspect pass the last point of payment.



If you don't complete all 5 of these items and testify to them you will lose in court. A good manager/security will, once you conceal the item, close the distance and offer customer service and be within a few feet of the suspect at all times. At this point you do not try to follow the suspect from a distance, otherwise you will lose contact with the suspect around and aisle/corner and you will risk the suspect setting the item down and an illegal detainment. Companies payout significant amounts (5k) for illegal detainment when a suspect calls corporate.

Many times after concealment, I have been right next to the suspect asking them if they need help finding anything. "Can I help you find the "SUNGLASSES"? (stating the item that they concealed) The suspect will take the item out and set it down or hand it to me and leave. This is the ideal situation as they know they were caught and no one is hurt. And, no, you cannot detain them at that point. They did not admit to stealing and they didn't as they did no pass the registers. Yes, it pisses you off but arresting someone, waiting for the police to arrive, filling out paperwork takes a couple of hours and in retail you just don't have time for all of that.

Funny story:

I often catch shoplifters when I am shopping (not working and not where I work). I was at Home Depot once shopping. I saw a guy down the aisle sticking several items in his jacket. I told my wife to go get the manager and tell him I was going to be following a shoplifter. She left to find the manager. I followed the thief around the store and to the front end. I realised that the items he took would make the EAS alarm go off at the door. My wife was standing with the manager near the front. I realised that the manager would be unable to stop the thief because of the 5 rules. However, as a customer and not an employee, I could do much more. I walked to the door and waited past the EAS alarm. The thief got to the alarm and it went off and then he started to run. I stuck my foot out and tripped him. SPLAT! face first right onto the concrete! The items he had fell out of his jacket and the manager came over to pick them up.

The thief at this point is yelling at me that he is going to sue Home Depot for me tripping him. I simply said, "I'm sorry, I don't work here, I am just a customer." I walked back to my wife and finished shopping. The manager picked up his products and told the thief to get the hell out of his store. A little road rash never hurt anyone!
 

massivedesign

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sv_libertarian wrote:
Massivedesign; I wouldn't be surprised if IT has gone hands off again. I've seen a few interesting altercations down there, and all I've ever seen the security do was the "stop or I'll say stop again" routine.

Not to toot our horn, but we had that place running well. Most of the riders got along well, they all knew the rules and the drivers and road supervisors could rely upon us. We had some additional "leniency and privileges" after our first year there... After 5 years, when the contract came up for renewal, we didn't get it and from what I heard, went to hell-in-a-handbasket. All over a few bucks. A few drivers (from what I heard) went on a mini-strike to get IT to renew the contract with us...

Sad, because OTC and LTC are great facilities and a great asset to IT....

PS - If you are ever on the bus and hear 199 or 299 called out... 199 is security at OTC and 299 is LTC
 

amzbrady

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Marysville, Washington, USA
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Reason I asked is,the 76 station we fuel up the tow trucks at, has a cashier who I think is a compulsive liar. I have caught him ina few already. His last one provoked me askingthis last question about detainment and cuffs. He said he worked for a Wal-mart in the propane tank dept. (first off, their tanks are either empty or the full ones are not their, but another companies exchange service), He said Wal-Mart employed him as security, and he had to take classes and get trained on handcuffs, and has a handcuff card (I have never herd of a handcuff card, much less a wal-mart employee being trained as "security" and being allowed to carry them). Hehad also told me that he had to use them once on someone who tried stealing a tank, He said he tackled them and cuffed them andhad to drag them back to the security office, ( I cant imagine Wal-Mart putting themself in thatkind of positionand opening up a chance for an employee to put themself in harms way), (This guylooks like he mayby wieghs a buck 10, I could probably throw him 10 feet,and couldnt imagine him wrestleing a strong wind and winning, I would think he would break in a tussle)I thought I would ask about the cuff thing before just flat out telling him he's a dumbass and needs to quit puking crap out of his pie hole.

Edited to add: I dont know about other security firms, but when I worked for Securitas, we were told we were there to observe, not confront. At no time were we to put ourselves in harms way.
 

massivedesign

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Olympia, Washington, USA
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My brother worked for Securitas for quite a few years... Up in Auburn and down in Shelton.

I worked for Capital Security Enforcement (CSE)... Securitas got most of our sites when CSE went belly up.

There is a Wash. State Criminal Justice Training you can do to get certified on cuffs, OC, Pistol, Taser, baton etc.. But in no means is it a "card". You do get a cute little diploma though lol. Some companies insurance will require certification based upon the gear that the officer is carrying. We had to be cert'd on OC and Cuffs. Pistol cert is mandatory for any armed guard, which I also got.
 

END_THE_FED

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Mar 19, 2010
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926
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Seattle, Washington, USA
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gogodawgs wrote:
I have stopped dozens and dozens in 20 years of retail. I am the manager and have the same authority as unarmed security (which I have never had at a store I have worked for).

"Probable cause" is not a guiding principle in detaining someone. At least not that terminology.

There are 5 elements of an arrest: (to hold up in court)

1) You must see the suspect enter the area (aisle, section) without the item in their hand.

2) You must see the suspect take the item from the shelf and must be able to identify the item.

3) You must see the suspect conceal the item. (some suspects don't conceal they just walk out with the item in plain view)

4) You must NEVER lose sight of the suspect. (This is the most difficult)

5) You must witness the suspect pass the last point of payment.



If you don't complete all 5 of these items and testify to them you will lose in court. A good manager/security will, once you conceal the item, close the distance and offer customer service and be within a few feet of the suspect at all times. At this point you do not try to follow the suspect from a distance, otherwise you will lose contact with the suspect around and aisle/corner and you will risk the suspect setting the item down and an illegal detainment. Companies payout significant amounts (5k) for illegal detainment when a suspect calls corporate.

Many times after concealment, I have been right next to the suspect asking them if they need help finding anything. "Can I help you find the "SUNGLASSES"? (stating the item that they concealed) The suspect will take the item out and set it down or hand it to me and leave. This is the ideal situation as they know they were caught and no one is hurt. And, no, you cannot detain them at that point. They did not admit to stealing and they didn't as they did no pass the registers. Yes, it pisses you off but arresting someone, waiting for the police to arrive, filling out paperwork takes a couple of hours and in retail you just don't have time for all of that.

Funny story:

I often catch shoplifters when I am shopping (not working and not where I work). I was at Home Depot once shopping. I saw a guy down the aisle sticking several items in his jacket. I told my wife to go get the manager and tell him I was going to be following a shoplifter. She left to find the manager. I followed the thief around the store and to the front end. I realised that the items he took would make the EAS alarm go off at the door. My wife was standing with the manager near the front. I realised that the manager would be unable to stop the thief because of the 5 rules. However, as a customer and not an employee, I could do much more. I walked to the door and waited past the EAS alarm. The thief got to the alarm and it went off and then he started to run. I stuck my foot out and tripped him. SPLAT! face first right onto the concrete! The items he had fell out of his jacket and the manager came over to pick them up.

The thief at this point is yelling at me that he is going to sue Home Depot for me tripping him. I simply said, "I'm sorry, I don't work here, I am just a customer." I walked back to my wife and finished shopping. The manager picked up his products and told the thief to get the hell out of his store. A little road rash never hurt anyone!



Yes your absolutely correct.
Sorry, I was using "probable cause" as a general term I was posting from work and didnt have a lot of time. I should of been more specific.

I have worked retail security and was involved with the RTP with SPD
I was trained on the "5 elements" and if they weren't articulated in your report your in big trouble.


It was great how well the "Can I help you with anything" line worked.

"Can I help you find the SUNGLASSES" that's brilliant sir

Also if I had "selection" and "concealment" but at some point lost a visual I would approach just before they left and say "Excuse me sir, can I help you find the registrars?"

Do you know if the "5 elements" are actually law or are they more of a "industry standard"?
 

Jayd1981

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Mar 14, 2010
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Richland, Washington, USA
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I didn't know there were 5 elements to shoplifting. Out of curiousity if I do not conceal the item and just walk out, then what do they do? I would not have given them all 5 elements at that point, but am still committing the same crime.
 

END_THE_FED

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Jayd1981 wrote:
I didn't know there were 5 elements to shoplifting. Out of curiousity if I do not conceal the item and just walk out, then what do they do? I would not have given them all 5 elements at that point, but am still committing the same crime.
If I saw you select an item from the shelf and then leave I would detain, if I had a good visual the whole time, If I didn't detain I would at least confront you the main thing is to recover the merchandise so I can get back out on the floor. As GoGo said your much more valuable to the store on the floor then in the backroom doing paper work and waiting for LE.

Once we got involved with the Retail Theft Program (RTP) we no longer had to wait for SPD after we detained someone. We could call SPD pull a case number, check for warrants,write a good report and it would go through SPD to the DA.
This way there is still a report of it in the system but it took 30min instead of 2+ hours
 

Aaron1124

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Jul 5, 2009
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Location
Kent, Washington, USA
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I work in LP for Wal Mart. They do not use hand cuffs anymore. They stopped using hand cuffs due to an incident a long time ago, where a suspected shoplifter was cuffed, and then was tripped on accident, and fractured his wrist. It opened up a huge issue, and the company decided to stop the use of hand cuffs. How long ago? I'm not sure.

I can also tell you that there is a huge difference between security/loss prevention who works exclusively to an agency (such as a Wal Mart or Fred Meyer LP Agent) and a contracting security/loss prevention agent. The criteria are much more strict for contracting security agencies.
 

gogodawgs

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Federal Way, Washington, USA
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Jayd1981 wrote:
I didn't know there were 5 elements to shoplifting. Out of curiousity if I do not conceal the item and just walk out, then what do they do? I would not have given them all 5 elements at that point, but am still committing the same crime.
Same thing as if you conceal...
 
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