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Are "No Refusal" DUI checkpoints possible in Virginia?

utbagpiper

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So what. There is no way to catch such a crime without violating the 4th.

In many cases there are perfectly acceptable ways to gain probable cause of such a crime without violating any constitutional rights at all.

To be clear right up front, I oppose checkpoints and roadblocks as both violations of constitutional rights and wasteful of limited resources. I think dangerous drivers are much more likely to be caught if officers are out patrolling, watching how drivers are operating their vehicles when they are not approaching a roadblock.

So, how to gain probable cause without a roadblock? Watch drivers. Weaving in lanes, making excessively wide and slow turns, and other signs of impaired driving can be observed without ever violating a person's rights. A non-anonymous tip or complaint about a drunk person getting into a car and driving can also alert authorities about commission of the crime of DUI.

There are many draconian no-victim crimes.

There are some, but far fewer than some would like to think. Externalities, by definition, affect others.

The whole issue is driven (heh heh heh) by propaganda. Propaganda machine stirs up righteous indignation. The sheep bleat. The government uses it to shat all over our rights in order to cash in and increase control.

Ah yes. The evil government. Because having a loved one killed by some self-absorbed jackwagon who cares more for his own recreatinal access to a mind altering drug (or making the next facebook post or tweet) than he does for the life and limb of those around him is so much less offensive.

I'm just old enough to remember watching old TV shows and movies where, "Gee, I didn't mean to crash. I guess I just had one too many to drink...." was a mitigating rather than aggravating factor. I have a sibling who will endure pain for the rest of his life because of a drunk driver. I routinely endure longer than necessary commutes because too many drivers can't seem to focus on driving but have to dick around with their phones during rush hour.

A 2,000 to 4,000+ pound automobile moving at 20 to 80 mph is not a toy. It is more deadly than a firearm. In fact, if we eliminate suicidal use of guns, more people die each year in this nation due to car crashes than do from bullets.


How many of those hypocrites admit to driving drowsy? A condition proven to be as dangerous as dui. (http://www.sleepdr.com/blog/driving-drowsy-vs-driving-drunk)

Anytime I see someone claim that this or that is "as dangerous as DUI" my BS meter goes off. In too many cases, these statements are made by someone trying to diminish the dangers posed by drunk drivers. Or, they are said ignorantly by those who have no idea the difference between 0.07% and 0.20% BAC. Sadly, at least one of these seems to be at play here. DUI accounts for about 1/2 of all automobile related fatalities. Meanwhile, from your linked article:


In European countries with more uniform records, drowsy driving accounts for 10 to 30% of all crashes.

...

Furthermore, an Australian study correlated sleep deprivation with blood alcohol content (BAC) in terms of how likely they were to result in a collision. Staying awake for 18 hours corresponds to a BAC of .05; maintaining wakefulness for a full 24 hours equates to a BAC of .10, which is over the legal limit of .08.


So even at 18 hours of being awake, a person is still no more likely to crash than is a drinker who is still below the legal limit. Somewhere between 18 and 24 hours is where a person would cross the DUI threshold. That ain't "drowsy" that is flat out sleep deprived and no shock that is dangerous.

Ditto when it comes to talking on a hands free cell phone. That puts a person at about the same risk factor as being just barely 0.08% BAC.

Now, texting or otherwise reading a smart phone?

That all said, a person chatting on a phone can, presumably, end the call when traffic conditions change. A drunk cannot decide to be less drunk when his quiet drive home gets more difficult for some reason.

Point is, as we come to recognize the risks to safe driving, those who willfully place the public at danger should be properly punished. I don't care whether it is DUI (alcohol or other drugs, OTC, Rx, or illicit), excessive drowsiness, texting or talking on a cell phone, or just lacking basic driving skills (get out of the right lane for heaven's sake and let faster traffic pass safely).


I would agree it's irresponsible to dui or drive drowsy but I strenuously disagree with violating rights in order to catch people in the act.

I join you in opposing roadblocks.

But I'm afraid in your zeal against roadblocks, you've gone too far in diminishing the crime of DUI or other needlessly risky driving behaviors. It isn't merely "irresponsible", it is grossly negligent, selfish, self-centered, anti-social, and criminal to drive drunk or otherwise impaired. I'd bet that randomly discharging a gun into the air in an urban area is less risky to innocent life and limb than is driving drunk or texting while driving. And nobody here would ever defend randomly discharging a gun into the air in an urban area as merely "irresponsible". I'll happily vote for a long prison stay for anyone who runs around randomly discharging guns. I'll do the same for anyone who drives impaired. And I hope the jackwagon is caught before he destroys an innocent life or five.

Charles
 

Citizen

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SNIP Ah yes. The evil government. Because having a loved one killed by some self-absorbed jackwagon who cares more for his own recreatinal access to a mind altering drug (or making the next facebook post or tweet) than he does for the life and limb of those around him is so much less offensive.

I'm just old enough to remember watching old TV shows and movies where, "Gee, I didn't mean to crash. I guess I just had one too many to drink...." was a mitigating rather than aggravating factor. I have a sibling who will endure pain for the rest of his life because of a drunk driver. I routinely endure longer than necessary commutes because too many drivers can't seem to focus on driving but have to dick around with their phones during rush hour.

A 2,000 to 4,000+ pound automobile moving at 20 to 80 mph is not a toy. It is more deadly than a firearm. In fact, if we eliminate suicidal use of guns, more people die each year in this nation due to car crashes than do from bullets.

False premise. And, fear-mongering. "Since a few people can be hurt, government can intrude on everybody."
 

Citizen

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SNIP But I'm afraid in your zeal against roadblocks, you've gone too far in diminishing the crime of DUI or other needlessly risky driving behaviors. It isn't merely "irresponsible", it is grossly negligent, selfish, self-centered, anti-social, and criminal to drive drunk or otherwise impaired. I'd bet that randomly discharging a gun into the air in an urban area is less risky to innocent life and limb than is driving drunk or texting while driving. And nobody here would ever defend randomly discharging a gun into the air in an urban area as merely "irresponsible". I'll happily vote for a long prison stay for anyone who runs around randomly discharging guns. I'll do the same for anyone who drives impaired. And I hope the jackwagon is caught before he destroys an innocent life or five.

Charles

Straw man argument. And, false re-definition. Irresponsible necessarily includes all behaviors below responsibility.
 

utbagpiper

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Straw man argument.

I don't think that phrase means what you think it means.

But do feel free to point out exactly what the strawman was if you think you understand the logical fallacy of which you've wrongly accused me.
False premise. And, fear-mongering. "Since a few people can be hurt, government can intrude on everybody."

Straw man as you put offensive words into my mouth. I never said government can intrude on everybody. It is a week argument that relies on lies to make its point.

And, false re-definition. Irresponsible necessarily includes all behaviors below responsibility.

And there is a reason the english language contains over a million words, drawing richly from so many other languages. If you'd like to limit yourself to Orwellian "ungood" have a ball. Though the irony would be rich indeed.

On topic, was there anything material in my post you wished to comment on? Or were you just drive-by sniping on "style" with your two posts?

Do you actually want to defend driving drunk or take issue with laws that place limits on our conduct while driving?

Charles
 
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TFred

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double-plus-one, no, make that five.

moreover, you should ALWAYS decline the offer to have you do "roadside sobriety tests" - they are all designed to create probable cause, there's really no such thing as a "sobriety test". You have to get out of the car if ordered to do so (assuming a rational basis for the stop), but you don't have to do anything else. when the cop tells you what he "needs" for you to do, that's simply an expression of his own emotional state - sounds like a personal problem to me (no, don't say that - say, "No, thank you, officer. I prefer not to.") If they jam a flashlight up in your face, be aware the flashlight has an alky-sensor in it designed to "alert" on the cloud of exhalation in front of your face - jump back, treat it as an attempt to hit you with the flashlight. Recoil in alarm and yell, "Don't hit me with that flashlight!!!" as loud as you can ( a-la PeeWee Herman in PeeWee's PlayHouse). Sue him later for assault, since you had the present apprehension of an immediate battery (all it takes is your perception that you're about to be hit).
Just for those, like me, who had a misconception here... it may be a good idea to occasionally remind folks that the implied consent law only kicks in AFTER you have been arrested. I was remembering my 10th grade driver's ed instruction incorrectly, which confused me, as I thought one could not refuse a test prior to arrest as well.

§ 18.2-268.2. Implied consent to post-arrest testing to determine drug or alcohol content of blood.

TFred
 

Citizen

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Question for User

What is the history on implied consent? By which I mean, why bother to presume consent, and then penalize refusal? It is such an obvious lie--government never intended to actually let a person refuse or withhold consent. Government tells him that by driving he consents. So, government never even asked him whether he consented; government simply put words in his mouth.

So, why bother? Why not just tell drivers you will be tested and quit monkeying around with sham dignity about consent?

So, I'm wondering where it all started and why.
 

user

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It's a "legal fiction" derived from common law rules about the King's highways. The reason it's a bit tenuous is that in Jolly Olde England, the King's highways were actually the King's property - as was all of England's real estate, as "landowners" only held their fiefs by leave of the King who was, in effect, the landlord of the whole country. A good wikipedia article on the subject under the heading, "quia emptores", after the statute which began in those words. But there was a change in the mid-1600's by which land tenure was essentially taken away from the king in exchange for an allowance of sorts. In Virginia, the rule was clearly that the landowner owns his own land, and that highways were created out of rights-of-way across the lands of some individual owner. In custom, abutting landowners whose boundary was a road owned to the center line of the highway. So the Sovereign was not the sovereign of the highways in Virginia. Nevertheless, the courts said that the privilege to operate some particular mode of transport on The Sovereign's Highways could be subject to terms and conditions. Everyone's got the absolute right to travel on the Sovereign's highways, as at common law, but if you use a motor vehicle to do it, your use of the vehicle can be subject to regulation. The assumption of county roads into the State Highway System under Byrd Road Act (1932) reinforced that kind of thinking. So the rule that by your use of a motor vehicle on the highway implied your acceptance of terms and conditions, among which is your agreement to submit to a test to determine your blood alcohol level. I don't know when the current statute was passed originally, but the failure to submit to the test is a separate offense. And here we're talking only about the one that's given at the jail after an arrest, not an "alkasensor" by the side of the road which is entirely optional.

By the way - DUI is a crime whether you're on the public highways or not - but you can't be required to take the breath test if you're not operating a motor vehicle on a highway. Some private roads are made highways for law enforcement purposes by local ordinance, but that's only in residential subdivisions. I knew of a recent case in which a woman had attended a private event at one of these country "inns" of which Virginia seems to have no lack, and was stopped and charged before she'd actually reached the highway - still on a private driveway. She'd refused the blood test, so they had no real evidence of DUI so they charged her with the refusal - she won because implied consent did not extend to private land.
 
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solus

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thanks for the thoughtful and thorough information...quite informative, and again quite appreciated to an outsider of the commonwealth.

ipse
 

OC for ME

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If the state wanted to cut down on drunk drivers how about cops stationing themselves outside a bar? Nabb the weaving pedestrian while he is fishing for his keys which reduces the chances that he will kill to just about zero...this is the goal is it not? Nabbing a drunk after he gets behind the wheel is nothing but a revenue scheme.

Missouri citizens are not so fortunate as to refusing to submit.

http://moga.mo.gov/mostatutes/stathtml/57700000411.html?&me=intoxicated
 

TFred

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If the state wanted to cut down on drunk drivers how about cops stationing themselves outside a bar? Nabb the weaving pedestrian while he is fishing for his keys which reduces the chances that he will kill to just about zero...this is the goal is it not? Nabbing a drunk after he gets behind the wheel is nothing but a revenue scheme.

Missouri citizens are not so fortunate as to refusing to submit.

http://moga.mo.gov/mostatutes/stathtml/57700000411.html?&me=intoxicated
If you read that code, it also requires an arrest (same as Virginia), OR a detention or stop, but that only applies to airplane pilots, or vehicle drivers under the age of 18 or 21, AND if the officer suspects they may have a BAC of 0.02 or greater.

TFred
 

Citizen

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It's a "legal fiction" derived from common law rules about the King's highways. The reason it's a bit tenuous is that in Jolly Olde England, the King's highways were actually the King's property - as was all of England's real estate, as "landowners" only held their fiefs by leave of the King who was, in effect, the landlord of the whole country. A good wikipedia article on the subject under the heading, "quia emptores", after the statute which began in those words. But there was a change in the mid-1600's by which land tenure was essentially taken away from the king in exchange for an allowance of sorts. In Virginia, the rule was clearly that the landowner owns his own land, and that highways were created out of rights-of-way across the lands of some individual owner. In custom, abutting landowners whose boundary was a road owned to the center line of the highway. So the Sovereign was not the sovereign of the highways in Virginia. Nevertheless, the courts said that the privilege to operate some particular mode of transport on The Sovereign's Highways could be subject to terms and conditions. Everyone's got the absolute right to travel on the Sovereign's highways, as at common law, but if you use a motor vehicle to do it, your use of the vehicle can be subject to regulation. The assumption of county roads into the State Highway System under Byrd Road Act (1932) reinforced that kind of thinking. So the rule that by your use of a motor vehicle on the highway implied your acceptance of terms and conditions, among which is your agreement to submit to a test to determine your blood alcohol level. I don't know when the current statute was passed originally, but the failure to submit to the test is a separate offense. And here we're talking only about the one that's given at the jail after an arrest, not an "alkasensor" by the side of the road which is entirely optional.

By the way - DUI is a crime whether you're on the public highways or not - but you can't be required to take the breath test if you're not operating a motor vehicle on a highway. Some private roads are made highways for law enforcement purposes by local ordinance, but that's only in residential subdivisions. I knew of a recent case in which a woman had attended a private event at one of these country "inns" of which Virginia seems to have no lack, and was stopped and charged before she'd actually reached the highway - still on a private driveway. She'd refused the blood test, so they had no real evidence of DUI so they charged her with the refusal - she won because implied consent did not extend to private land.

And, we can point to exactly which king did that: William the Conqueror. He claimed every scrap of dirt in England as his personal property.

Now, just for a bit of back round.

If one concedes there can be such a thing as a good king, Edward the Confessor qualifies. The problem was he never married, and had no children. In roughly 1060 AD, Edward started looking toward the succession--who would succeed him when he died.

Roll back the clock some years more. During Edward's reign, Godwin, Earl of Wessex was the most powerful noble in England. And, Godwin gave Edward no end of headaches. Eventually, Godwin died, and his son, Harold Godwinson, became Earl of Wessex. I vaguely recall that Edward and Godwin sort of reconciled or came to terms; so, by the time Harold Godwinson inherited the title of Earl, there was little or no friction between the son and Edward the king.

Roll the clock forward again. Edward sees the end coming. William, Duke of Normandy (France) has some minor legitimate claim to the throne of England. So, Edward promises William the crown upon his passing. I think this part is actually documented.

In roughly 1064 AD, Harold Godwinson goes to France to negotiate or rescue a hostage/prisoner. While there, he is captured and ends up the guest (privileged prisoner) of William for a while. Now, remember, Harold is Earl of Wessex, a very powerful nobleman in England. If Harold would recognize William's succession to the throne of England, that would carry a good bit of weight. So, of course, William obtained Harold's promise to recognize William as the king of England when Edward passes away.

Here's where it gets a bit fuzzy. Edward dies in late 1065 or early 1066. But, according to Harold, Edward bestowed the crown on him just before he died. Uh-oh. You don't even have to know the rest of the story to see trouble coming.

Harold Godwinson assumed the throne. William found out and said, "Oh, heck no! That's mine!!" William spent the next several months preparing an invasion--assembling an army, building a transport fleet. And, invaded.

The battle was on a ridge about nine miles north-northwest of the coastal town of Hastings. Its called the Battle of Hastings, but you'll find it actually took place at a village today aptly named, Battle.* Harold died during the battle. As did much of the nobility of England. That's why William was able to insert his own people--there were dang few English noblemen left for him to have to cooperate with.**

Now, historians today are still unsure whether Edward the Confessor changed his mind and gave the crown to Harold without telling William, or whether Harold was just ambitious and made it up.

But, regardless of that question, it makes no sense at all that Edward--a recognized good king--told William that ownership of every scrap of land in England accompanied the crown. Edward did not claim that for himself. He certainly would not have transferred it to William.

Thus, the legal fiction that the roads of Virginia belong to the sovereign rests on the simple, bald-faced, self-serving assertion of a man history proves was vicious and brutal.***


---------------------------------------------

*There has been a bit of a break-through on the actual location of the battle relatively recently. You see, the traditional battlefield is a very curious battlefield. In the 900 years since the battle, not once has a military artifact been discovered on the battlefield. Not an axe, not a belt buckle, not an arrowhead. Nothing. So an archeological group decided to dig into the question. They did several things. They re-surveyed the traditional battlefield (metal detectors, trenches, etc.) and found nothing. They eliminated a nearby hill (Caldbec Hill) for tactical reasons--the hill is too broad for Harold's shield wall to defend; William's cavalry could just ride around them and attack the flanks and rear. But, there is one little place just to the south-east of the traditional battlefield that would have made the ideal defensible ground. You see, in 1066, sea levels were higher. The land around Hastings was marshy. There was only one road out of Hastings, leading inward along high ground and ridgelines. That road is still there today, albeit paved and more populated along its route. And, as that road makes its final approach the village of Battle, it ascends along a ridge. And, at the northern end of the village, there is a saddle where the ground drops away steeply on the left and right. A British infantry commander was asked to assess the lay of the ground. Even he said that exact place was the crucial point, and exactly where he would set up his own troops. You can see it for yourself. Just use google-maps, key words "Battle" and "England". Bang at the northwest end of town there is a small traffic circle. Go to street view and look at how steep the ground is. Just to the northwest is the ruins of Battle Abbey, the church built at William's command to commemorate his victory. The traditional battlefield is the south slope of grass behind the ruins. You can't miss it.

**From time-to-time, User has educated us that the first 250 years of Virginia common law is in French. Now you know why--because William the Conqueror from France installed his own people to run England. Remember the movie Braveheart? Remember the king? That was Edward I (not to be confused with Edward the Confessor). Edward I, about 1300 AD, was the first king to habitually speak English. All the rest before him and back to William the Conqueror in 1066 spoke French. There is an excellent documentary on the English language on YouTube. It spends a little time explaining how the entire government system, the courts, and official documents from this period are all in French.

***Do a little on-line research into how William dealt with uprisings protesting his tyranny. Also, do a little research into how the Normans (William's successors and their lackeys) treated the Anglo-Saxon common people.

Bonus Tidbit: Near as I can tell, the people of England have not ruled themselves since the day before the Roman Emperor Claudius invaded England in 43 AD. The Romans ruled the poor Celts of England until, roughly, 450 AD. It was the Romans who set up the Anglo-Saxons to take over. In fact, one documentary I viewed, showed how the last of the Romans used an Anglo-Saxon chief for security, putting him in a position of power. So, the Anglo-Saxons held sway over the poor Celts until the Viking incursions starting about 800 AD. Then the Vikings, after some back and forth, got plenty of control when a Viking king named Swain took over much of the country. His son, king Canute, cleaned up and controlled most of England. King Harold Godwinson's mother was a sister or sister-in-law of Canute. That brings us to 1066 when Godwinson is killed at the Battle of Hastings. Then the Normans take over.

But, here is the tidbit. This from a documentary. The Normans were actually descended--and not all that far back--from Vikings. Vikings invaded part of France. Norman--Northmen--Norseman. Get it?

So, the danged Vikings and their descendants ruled England one way or another from roughly 1000 AD until the death of King John in 1216-17. They either ruled directly, or through their Norman descendants for almost two centuries. Poor Celts. They must have gotten pretty tired of being ruled by others. For dang near 2000 years. Even today, the monarch of England is of Germanic descent. Poor Celts. Damned Romans.
 
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Citizen

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It's a "legal fiction" derived from common law rules about the King's highways. The reason it's a bit tenuous is that in Jolly Olde England, the King's highways were actually the King's property - as was all of England's real estate, as "landowners" only held their fiefs by leave of the King who was, in effect, the landlord of the whole country. A good wikipedia article on the subject under the heading, "quia emptores", after the statute which began in those words. But there was a change in the mid-1600's by which land tenure was essentially taken away from the king in exchange for an allowance of sorts. In Virginia, the rule was clearly that the landowner owns his own land, and that highways were created out of rights-of-way across the lands of some individual owner. In custom, abutting landowners whose boundary was a road owned to the center line of the highway. So the Sovereign was not the sovereign of the highways in Virginia. Nevertheless, the courts said that the privilege to operate some particular mode of transport on The Sovereign's Highways could be subject to terms and conditions. Everyone's got the absolute right to travel on the Sovereign's highways, as at common law, but if you use a motor vehicle to do it, your use of the vehicle can be subject to regulation. The assumption of county roads into the State Highway System under Byrd Road Act (1932) reinforced that kind of thinking. So the rule that by your use of a motor vehicle on the highway implied your acceptance of terms and conditions, among which is your agreement to submit to a test to determine your blood alcohol level. I don't know when the current statute was passed originally, but the failure to submit to the test is a separate offense. And here we're talking only about the one that's given at the jail after an arrest, not an "alkasensor" by the side of the road which is entirely optional.

By the way - DUI is a crime whether you're on the public highways or not - but you can't be required to take the breath test if you're not operating a motor vehicle on a highway. Some private roads are made highways for law enforcement purposes by local ordinance, but that's only in residential subdivisions. I knew of a recent case in which a woman had attended a private event at one of these country "inns" of which Virginia seems to have no lack, and was stopped and charged before she'd actually reached the highway - still on a private driveway. She'd refused the blood test, so they had no real evidence of DUI so they charged her with the refusal - she won because implied consent did not extend to private land.

<chuckle> Oh. Thank you for reminding me of another...um...[STRIKE]government lie[/STRIKE] legal fiction. The first time a person refuses a blood or alcohol test after arrest is a civil offense--I read the statute linked above. Now, for this non-crime, civil offense, the [STRIKE]sentence[/STRIKE] penalty is government refusal to recognize your right to convey yourself by state-of-the-art, efficient, quick means (automobile) on roads based on the historical, self-asserted claim of a vicious, brutal tyrant. For one year. Hahahhahahaa. And, that is a civil penalty.

To rub salt in the wound, the statute omits to mention that should the king's minions catch you violating their arrogantly, self-asserted law, they can use force--up to and including lethal force--to make you comply (society's laws have to be vindicated, you know). There's nothing civil about that. Nothing at all. They're just hoping we forget that part about vindicating, with up to lethal force, laws falsely attributed to "society." Government and its own desire to rule is more like it.
 
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user

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If the state wanted to cut down on drunk drivers how about cops stationing themselves outside a bar? Nabb the weaving pedestrian while he is fishing for his keys which reduces the chances that he will kill to just about zero...this is the goal is it not? Nabbing a drunk after he gets behind the wheel is nothing but a revenue scheme.

Missouri citizens are not so fortunate as to refusing to submit.

http://moga.mo.gov/mostatutes/stathtml/57700000411.html?&me=intoxicated

They've been doing that for years. Particularly with bars they want to shut down but can't.
 

user

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Here's another wrinkle: William was the illegitimate offspring of the Duke of Normandy and one of the women hanging about the castle, so William had no hope of inheritance in France. That's why, until he made himself William the Conqueror, he was known as William the Bastard. At the time, that was merely a factual characterization, didn't mean anything bad, exactly. So his daddy, the Duke, outfits him with his own army and sends him to England on the pretext heretofore described.

But it really didn't matter whether King Ed had promised the crown, William became the landowner by right of conquest, just the way the United States did with the Constitution after the Great War against Virginia.
 

va_tazdad

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They've been doing that for years. Particularly with bars they want to shut down but can't.

An Agency did that a number of years ago and even though they won the cases, they lost LEO positions when the state representatives demanded they be brought under control during the next session of the legislature.

Nothing was illegal or done wrong, but the agency suffered for doing their job.

Politics.
 
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