SCOTUS makes a good call for once!

nonameisgood · Jul 8, 2015

You have options. The most obvious of which is to select a different community in which to live. The better one is to work to shape your community as you see fit, keeping in mind that surrounding yourself with people very different from yourself then trying to change them is rather less effective that migrating to a place full of similar individuals.
That said, Texas is growing by one million people a year, half by immigration and half by birth. So even my Utopia is changing. Those half million immigrants are primarily northerners fleeing the oppressive city governments and frigid cold. They bring with them big brother NY ideas and sh&tty attitudes.

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Dave_pro2a · Jul 9, 2015

nonameisgood said:
You have options. The most obvious of which is to select a different community in which to live. The better one is to work to shape your community as you see fit, keeping in mind that surrounding yourself with people very different from yourself then trying to change them is rather less effective that migrating to a place full of similar individuals.
That said, Texas is growing by one million people a year, half by immigration and half by birth. So even my Utopia is changing. Those half million immigrants are primarily northerners fleeing the oppressive city governments and frigid cold. They bring with them big brother NY ideas and sh&tty attitudes.

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https://freestateproject.org/

If the free state project succeeds then there still won't be freedom in New Hampshire, while it remains under federal slavery.

countryclubjoe · Jul 9, 2015

if you operate a business, you should have the right to serve or not to serve whom ever you want or don't want to serve... It is a business decision.. The G should not have any say in who or how you run your business... Money is green to me however some folks see things thru different colors...

My .02

CCJ

OC for ME · Jul 9, 2015

The Oregon case, and I could be mistaken, was not about service or no service, but the specific request. Bake a cake for gays, OK, promoting gay weddings, not OK.

In Colorado, a similar situation exists, bake a cake for gays, no problem, bake a cake promoting gay marriage, problem. So, is the argument denial of service, or shirt no shirt.

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_28445399/lakewood-man-defends-refusal-bake-wedding-cake-gay

This issue is singularly focused on gay marriage promotion and not the denial service to gays. But, facts and figures are irrelevant at this point it seems. If you are firm in your personal convictions and your convictions conflict with the gay lobby agenda your peaceable non-participation will be brought before the state, and the state has proven that you will be sanctioned for exercising your peaceable non-participation.

We gun owners should start suing businesses that violate the law by denying us our right to engage them.

stealthyeliminator · Jul 9, 2015

nonameisgood said:
The state is an instrument of The People, not an individual. It acted exactly as instructed by the voters.
This is where the unelected courts become the arbiters working on behalf of the minority (in this case, the bakers.). The courts have an opportunity to determine if the business (not the bakers individually) can disregard local standards with bad intent and then publicly shame the same sex couple for pointing out the unlawful discrimination.
It could be compared to a robber claiming that although he did rob someone he was justified in doing so because of his religion, he then says he would do it again and then he attempted to publicly shame the person he robbed when the robbery was reported to authorities.
The seriousness of the "crime" is different, but the logic is the same.

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The logic is not the same because refusing to bake a cake for someone is not aggression but robbery is.

stealthyeliminator · Jul 9, 2015

Citizen said:
... Doesn't matter how many equals one aggregates, they are still just a bunch of equals, all equal to the one individual. ...

Exactly. 0*X=0. If "society" or "community" were a legitimate entity in the question of right to use force against another, as opposed to every person still being an individual, which is the truth, when your neighbor has no right to put a gun to your head and demand cash, and neither does his neighbor, or his, the sum of their right as a "community" or "society" to do so is still zero. < Edited to rephrase.

nonameisgood said:
Citizen presents an anarchist's view of the world. I view the laws and rules of a community to be an agreement between and among individuals. I agree to pay taxes and to not kill people. In exchange, the community of others agrees to provide city services and to not kill me..
Living as individuals, without community involvement, would be expensive and time consuming. We would each have to provide our own fire suppression, pave our own roads, source water, dispose of waste, and hundreds of other things. If not done with taxation, we would each be paying for services one way or another, or going without.

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Citizen presents a realistic and logical view that doesn't whimsically and selectively apply principle and logic only when there hasn't been found a reason of convenience or practicality to toss it.

Edit: Oh, and, emphasis mine, "Every step by which an individual substitutes concerted action for isolated action results in an immediate and recognizable improvement in his conditions. The advantages derived from peaceful cooperation and division of labor are universal." - Ludwig Von Mises. The advantage is from capitalism, not statism.

sudden valley gunner · Jul 9, 2015

nonameisgood said:
You have options. The most obvious of which is to select a different community in which to live. The better one is to work to shape your community as you see fit, keeping in mind that surrounding yourself with people very different from yourself then trying to change them is rather less effective that migrating to a place full of similar individuals.
That said, Texas is growing by one million people a year, half by immigration and half by birth. So even my Utopia is changing. Those half million immigrants are primarily northerners fleeing the oppressive city governments and frigid cold. They bring with them big brother NY ideas and sh&tty attitudes.

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Oh so Rosa Parks should have just not rode the bus? She had options.

This being forced to move because you don't want to capitulate to the extortion of others is a failed argument in my book.

twoskinsonemanns · Jul 9, 2015

It's continually disheartening to see adamant 2A supporters that care nothing for the rights of other groups getting hosed.
"If you don't like draconian gun laws GTFO" is awfully offensive. But don't like ridiculous trade and religious restrictions? Find another community. :banghead:

nonameisgood · Jul 9, 2015

twoskinsonemanns said:
It's continually disheartening to see adamant 2A supporters that care nothing for the rights of other groups getting hosed.
"If you don't like draconian gun laws GTFO" is awfully offensive. But don't like ridiculous trade and religious restrictions? Find another community. :banghead:

Lots of people say that they don't move to California because they don't like the gun laws. Maybe bakers don't move to Oregon because of cake laws.

What group got hosed? The group who wants to tell same sex couples that they can't get married. The court ruling in the OP in no way affects anyone else. A same sex couple getting married in no way causes harm to anyone else. (Arguably, any couple who gets married could be harming themselves, but that is a different discussion.)

As to the case of the cake, there is no restriction on religion because there is no basis in christianity to deny service to a same sex couple. God doesn't hate f@gs, despite what a preacher might say. And trade practices have long been a matter of a community approval. Once they started closing brothels and casinos because they were "unwanted" (despite market forces saying otherwise) the pattern was set. Oregon has a law. Change it or have it overturned in court. If the means to get to a court hearing is to break the law, that is fine. But don't then go on Fox News and claim you are a victim after you knowingly broke the law. Stand up and say you broke it as a means to get an unjust law changed. There is not oppressed bakers' minority, nor an oppressed christian minority. There is, however, an oppressed gay minority which is perpetuated because some preachers say bigotry against homosexuals is good. It feels like a Twilight Zone episode wherein the Westboro baptist folks have taken over christendom.

twoskinsonemanns · Jul 9, 2015

nonameisgood said:
As to the case of the cake, there is no restriction on religion because there is no basis in christianity to deny service to a same sex couple. God doesn't hate f@gs, despite what a preacher might say. And trade practices have long been a matter of a community approval. Once they started closing brothels and casinos because they were "unwanted" (despite market forces saying otherwise) the pattern was set. Oregon has a law. Change it or have it overturned in court. If the means to get to a court hearing is to break the law, that is fine. But don't then go on Fox News and claim you are a victim after you knowingly broke the law. Stand up and say you broke it as a means to get an unjust law changed. There is not oppressed bakers' minority, nor an oppressed christian minority. There is, however, an oppressed gay minority which is perpetuated because some preachers say bigotry against homosexuals is good. It feels like a Twilight Zone episode wherein the Westboro baptist folks have taken over christendom.

I see. There is no restriction on religion because the restriction in question has no bases in your view of Christianity. So what bout people that CLAIM it does restrict their religion freedom? They got the wrong religion?

stealthyeliminator · Jul 9, 2015

DrakeZ07 said:
Can y'all please stop derailing my congratulatory thread and put things back on track? I really don't want to have to ask for a thread lock on my own thread.

Sorry for my part of the off-topic discussion.

Despite our different views, I hope you know I'd never cast a stone at you. I'd never seek to prohibit your non-violent relationship choices using threat or use of force or violence, even if I believe they're wrong choices.

OC Freedom · Jul 9, 2015

DrakeZ07 said:
Can y'all please stop derailing my congratulatory thread and put things back on track? I really don't want to have to ask for a thread lock on my own thread.

@UTBagpiper or whatever his username is; Deal with it. I hate religion, and I hate religious people. Anyone who believes in any sort of mythical being, is no better to me, than an earth worm. Gun rights, and the right to open carry, and the promotion thereof, are the only things that I agree, and am united with everyone else on this forum, over. Other than that, each and every one of us will argue, kick, spit, scream, and throw punches towards, with, and at each other, over the thousands of things that no one person on the forum agrees on. You are disgusted by my sheer hatred of religion, and religious people... well, I'm disgusted by your words, and your reasoning FOR being religious. We can follow three simple words that sum up each others right [outside of this private forum] to free speech... Deal with it. Personally, I'm perfectly content, and fine, and supportive, of restrictions on religion, or the destruction of 'religious freedoms', imposed by the federal, or state governments, so long as it's in my favor, and my favor being state atheism. Your religion has held back humanity for hundreds, thousands, of years, and has oppressed peoples that it deems 'sinners', for just as long. Way I see it, I'd welcome a law, or a forced order, to force religious people, christians, jews, muslims, etc, to take part in, celebrate, and promote LGBT marriages, as a big "F you", and "IN YOUR FACE!", as a means of pay back for the thousands of years of torture, humiliation, oppression, death, and harsh-treatment by most of the religions in the world today, and by most of its followers.

@ the others, the forum has a rule against advocating that ANYONE break the law, no matter what law, no matter in what manner, no matter if its knowingly or unknowingly. That goes for everyone, even myself as the Atheist non-Gods' gift to the human race.

Such hate of others different than you, I can feel the anger in your post, please get some help before you hurt yourself or someone else.

DrakeZ07 · Jul 9, 2015

OC Freedom said:
Such hate of others different than you, I can feel the anger in your post, please get some help before you hurt yourself or someone else.

>Implies that anything but love for religion is a serious problem that needs 'help'.

sudden valley gunner · Jul 9, 2015

Congratulations on being treated equally before the law.

A side benefit for me is states are starting to think about getting out of the marriage business. Sometimes they'll do right for the wrong reasons.......lol.

Liberty-or-Death · Jul 9, 2015

I will actively oppose any attempt to force me to behave contrary to my beliefs. I would also defend your right to do the same, even if I disagreed with your beliefs. I would not ridicule you for your beliefs.

Westboro, IMO, is an abomination that brings shame on the name of Jesus. No preacher worth his salt would say God hates f@gs. God loves everyone but hates their sin.

I believe Jesus is the Son of the living God and that He died to pay my sin penalty and yours. He rose from the dead and so now I live for Him. I know not everyone believes as I do. That's fine. I also know I'll be hated for my faith. Great. But for those who ridicule believers, and mock God, consider this. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm 14:1

Dave_pro2a · Jul 10, 2015

Liberty-or-Death said:
I believe Jesus is the Son of the living God and that He died to pay my sin penalty and yours. He rose from the dead and so now I live for Him. I know not everyone believes as I do. That's fine. I also know I'll be hated for my faith. Great. But for those who ridicule believers, and mock God, consider this. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm 14:1

And Islam believes that Muhammad is the real, true prophet, and without faith in him his followers are allowed to kill you.

Mormons believe that Joseph Smith was a real, true prophet (born in 1805) and god gave him magical gold tablets that contain the truth that having a lot of wives is awesometastic.

Satanists believe in Mr. Crowley and doing whatever the heck they like.

Isrealis think you are a sinner if you say or write the word God, so they obsessively write G-d, because ya know, that fools God's rulz

And then we have Scientology, invented by a science fiction writer.

Hmm, while I'm not a secular humanist, I don't believe in the garbage above.

Better get our gov out of the religion business now, before Muslims become the majority in America.

Marriage is a STATE ISSUED LICENSE. The government has no defense for discrimination[/end topic]

countryclubjoe · Jul 10, 2015

I follow the "Golden Rule"... I could care less if two guys or two woman get married. I could care less if some small town baker refuses to bake a cake for the gay man or woman... I could care less if some poor black guy hates white cops and I could less if white cops or all cops hate black people....

Lets treat others as we want them to treat us....

I could care less if a person conceal carries or open carries... As long as they treat me with respect and their rights don't violate my rights.

Screw religion, follow the "Golden Rule"...

My .02

CCJ

solus · Jul 10, 2015

OC Freedom said:
Such hate of others different than you, I can feel the anger in your post, please get some help before you hurt yourself or someone else.

i find it quite strange, OC you accuse and advise someone for having anger issues for speaking out about their anguish, as they perceive it, then you have the audacity to accusing them of self harm to themselves or another and to seek treatment...

seems there is a a whole group of people over the years who have been espousing those same sentiments for quite awhile...

let see...SVG, didn't you mention Rosa? how many died, continue to die, and will be killed in their quest for equality?

oh wait, how bout the victims of the current jihad campaign being waged by ISIS against those who do not believe as they do?

and the Israeli issue(s) ...

OC do all these individuals who are espousing their anguis within those groups need treatment as well?

ipse

solus · Jul 10, 2015

Liberty-or-Death said:
I will actively oppose any attempt to force me to behave contrary to my beliefs. I would also defend your right to do the same, even if I disagreed with your beliefs. I would not ridicule you for your beliefs.

Westboro, IMO, is an abomination that brings shame on the name of Jesus. No preacher worth his salt would say God hates f@gs. God loves everyone but hates their sin.

I believe Jesus is the Son of the living God and that He died to pay my sin penalty and yours. He rose from the dead and so now I live for Him. I know not everyone believes as I do. That's fine. I also know I'll be hated for my faith. Great. But for those who ridicule believers, and mock God, consider this. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm 14:1

and careful OC will diagnosis you as expressing self loathing and being angry and so forth and so on...

BTW...do you pass around the collection plate after we say AMEN??

ipse

J_dazzle23 · Jul 10, 2015

DrakeZ07 said:
>Implies that anything but love for religion is a serious problem that needs 'help'.

You just lost me.

Sure. Hate religion. But you are pretty open about hating people because of their religion. Well let me pass you this little nugget:

The prominent religion in charles' state had atrocities committed against them (SANCTIONED BY THE STATE) that absolutely eclipse any descrimination against ANY minority group in the world today.

So go ahead and play the "RKBA is better than religious rights" tune all you want. Just keep in mind who you are taking to.

You are right. I DO agree with you that RKBA is a common interest. But it seems you don't copy that ethos to other personal liberties.

SCOTUS makes a good call for once!

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