yet another "new to AZ" question, thank you for being patient.

[chrsjhnsn]

I live in La Paz County, very rural, everyone has guns but no one has real information.
I'm extremely wary of taking advice from gun owners who are totally unfamiliar with the term "ARS" and who don't know who is on SCOTUS let alone who ruled for us in Heller and McDonald.

So, I've been told "you can't carry in a bank, its federal property"
LOL!!!
I know that's B.S however, I frequent small establishments and Churches that rent small rooms , I sometimes see small signs that say "no guns per ARS" with out a cite, or just a "no guns" sign.

I used to live in NV and up there its OK to ignore when no metal detector present, all they can do is ask you to leave and misdo if they have to have police escort you out.

I think I asked a few months ago but I can't find the thread.

Thanks very much, this site doesn't seem as active as it used to be, is everyone on facebook now? I cant get on arfcom because you need to pay for internet account to register .... I'm eager to get into gun culture and activism

 

[Rusty Young Man]

I live in La Paz County, very rural, everyone has guns but no one has real information.
I'm extremely wary of taking advice from gun owners who are totally unfamiliar with the term "ARS" and who don't know who is on SCOTUS let alone who ruled for us in Heller and McDonald.

So, I've been told "you can't carry in a bank, its federal property"
LOL!!!
I know that's B.S however, I frequent small establishments and Churches that rent small rooms , I sometimes see small signs that say "no guns per ARS" with out a cite, or just a "no guns" sign.

I used to live in NV and up there its OK to ignore when no metal detector present, all they can do is ask you to leave and misdo if they have to have police escort you out.

I think I asked a few months ago but I can't find the thread.

Thanks very much, this site doesn't seem as active as it used to be, is everyone on facebook now? I cant get on arfcom because you need to pay for internet account to register .... I'm eager to get into gun culture and activism

Welcome to Arizona and greetings from (usually :uhoh sunny, dry Tucson chrsjhnsn!

Here is the applicable ARS:
ARS 13-3102 Misconduct involving Weapons
http://www.azleg.gov/viewdocument/?docName=http://www.azleg.gov/ars/13/03102.htm

In it, you'll read that very few (non-federal) places are "gun-free" zones. Chief among them would be K-12 schools and places that sell alcohol for consumption on the premises (these places will refer to ARS Title 4, which contains the liquor ordinances). In the case of CCW permit holders, IF the signs aren't posted or they don't meet the requirements, one may still carry on the premises (must carry discreetly, "CC") as well as NOT drink. Nevada still beats us there.

Banks, movie theaters, stores, malls, and restaurants, etc. are all private-property entities which may or may not restrict carry on their property. If you carry there and are asked to leave (or disarm before returning), failure to do so would constitute trespassing, which is a misdemeanor.

So in that sense, signs do carry some of the weight of law, if they are properly posted and adhere to the requirements.

Other than that (and Federal places, or Native American Tribal lands) you should be all set to carry.


Similar question to yours, post 536:
http://vb.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?111377-Open-Carry-experience-thread/page22

SNIP...

Banks, supermarkets, and other private businesses are ok to carry in (OC, CC, or "hybrid"). If there are signs up banning rolleyes weapons from the premises then it is best not to patronize the business. That said, you would only get in trouble for trespassing (misdemeanor).


In the case of places that serve alcohol for consumption on the premises, one would need to have a CCW permit and may only carry CC. Yeah, any of our Nevadan brethren who come down here and see how Arizonans can't lawfully OC while drinking a beer with friends at a restaurant realize how spoiled they are.

Seriously though, the trip to Nevada was worth it just to see what Freedom is like. And I don't even drink beer.



NOTE: give me a sec to see if I can find the applicable Federal stuff ("Trust, but verify").

Carry in FEDERAL facilities:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/930

 

[exelci]

Welcome to Arizona and greetings from (usually :uhoh sunny, dry Tucson chrsjhnsn!

Here is the applicable ARS:
ARS 13-3102 Misconduct involving Weapons
http://www.azleg.gov/viewdocument/?docName=http://www.azleg.gov/ars/13/03102.htm

In it, you'll read that very few (non-federal) places are "gun-free" zones. Chief among them would be K-12 schools and places that sell alcohol for consumption on the premises (these places will refer to ARS Title 4, which contains the liquor ordinances). In the case of CCW permit holders, IF the signs aren't posted or they don't meet the requirements, one may still carry on the premises (must carry discreetly, "CC") as well as NOT drink. Nevada still beats us there.

Banks, movie theaters, stores, malls, and restaurants, etc. are all private-property entities which may or may not restrict carry on their property. If you carry there and are asked to leave (or disarm before returning), failure to do so would constitute trespassing, which is a misdemeanor.

So in that sense, signs do carry some of the weight of law, if they are properly posted and adhere to the requirements.

Other than that (and Federal places, or Native American Tribal lands) you should be all set to carry.


Similar question to yours, post 536:
http://vb.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?111377-Open-Carry-experience-thread/page22

What are the requirements for the no guns sign??

Thank you.

 

[Rusty Young Man]

What are the requirements for the no guns sign??

Thank you.

A.R.S. Title 4 (Alcoholic Beverages), Section 2 (Regulatory Provisions), Section 29 (Licenses; handguns; posting of notice):
http://www.azleg.gov/viewdocument/?docName=http://www.azleg.gov/ars/4/00229.htm


4-229. Licenses; handguns; posting of notice

A. A person may carry a concealed handgun on the premises of a licensee who is an on-sale retailer unless the licensee posts a sign that clearly prohibits the possession of weapons on the licensed premises. The sign shall conform to the following requirements:
1. Be posted in a conspicuous location accessible to the general public and immediately adjacent to the liquor license posted on the licensed premises.
2. Contain a pictogram that shows a firearm within a red circle and a diagonal red line across the firearm.
3. Contain the words, "no firearms allowed pursuant to A.R.S. section 4-229".

B. A person shall not carry a firearm on the licensed premises of an on-sale retailer if the licensee has posted the notice prescribed in subsection A of this section.

C. It is an affirmative defense to a violation of subsection B of this section if:
1. The person was not informed of the notice prescribed in subsection A of this section before the violation.
2. Any one or more of the following apply:
(a) At the time of the violation the notice prescribed in subsection A of this section had fallen down.
(b) At the time of the violation the person was not a resident of this state.
(c) The licensee had posted the notice prescribed in subsection A of this section not more than thirty days before the violation.

D. The department of liquor licenses and control shall prepare the signs required by this section and make them available at no cost to licensees.

E. The signs required by this section shall be composed of block, capital letters printed in black on white laminated paper at a minimum weight of one hundred ten pound index. The lettering and pictogram shall consume a space at least six inches by nine inches. The letters constituting the words "no firearms allowed" shall be at least three-fourths of a vertical inch and all other letters shall be at least one-half of a vertical inch. Nothing shall prohibit a licensee from posting additional signs at one or more locations on the premises.

F. This section does not prohibit a person who possesses a handgun from entering the licensed premises for a limited time for the specific purpose of either:
1. Seeking emergency aid.
2. Determining whether a sign has been posted pursuant to subsection A of this section.

 

[exelci]

A.R.S. Title 4 (Alcoholic Beverages), Section 2 (Regulatory Provisions), Section 29 (Licenses; handguns; posting of notice):
http://www.azleg.gov/viewdocument/?docName=http://www.azleg.gov/ars/4/00229.htm


4-229. Licenses; handguns; posting of notice

A. A person may carry a concealed handgun on the premises of a licensee who is an on-sale retailer unless the licensee posts a sign that clearly prohibits the possession of weapons on the licensed premises. The sign shall conform to the following requirements:
1. Be posted in a conspicuous location accessible to the general public and immediately adjacent to the liquor license posted on the licensed premises.
2. Contain a pictogram that shows a firearm within a red circle and a diagonal red line across the firearm.
3. Contain the words, "no firearms allowed pursuant to A.R.S. section 4-229".

B. A person shall not carry a firearm on the licensed premises of an on-sale retailer if the licensee has posted the notice prescribed in subsection A of this section.

C. It is an affirmative defense to a violation of subsection B of this section if:
1. The person was not informed of the notice prescribed in subsection A of this section before the violation.
2. Any one or more of the following apply:
(a) At the time of the violation the notice prescribed in subsection A of this section had fallen down.
(b) At the time of the violation the person was not a resident of this state.
(c) The licensee had posted the notice prescribed in subsection A of this section not more than thirty days before the violation.

D. The department of liquor licenses and control shall prepare the signs required by this section and make them available at no cost to licensees.

E. The signs required by this section shall be composed of block, capital letters printed in black on white laminated paper at a minimum weight of one hundred ten pound index. The lettering and pictogram shall consume a space at least six inches by nine inches. The letters constituting the words "no firearms allowed" shall be at least three-fourths of a vertical inch and all other letters shall be at least one-half of a vertical inch. Nothing shall prohibit a licensee from posting additional signs at one or more locations on the premises.

F. This section does not prohibit a person who possesses a handgun from entering the licensed premises for a limited time for the specific purpose of either:
1. Seeking emergency aid.
2. Determining whether a sign has been posted pursuant to subsection A of this section.

So, if the sign Contains a pictogram that shows a firearm within a red circle and a diagonal red line across the firearm, but doesn't have the
"no firearms allowed pursuant to A.R.S. section 4-229" or only has the words "no firearms allowed" and not the "pursuant to A.R.S. section" 4-229" what would this mean? That you can carry with out it being ilegal? Because of the missing information?

Thank you for your clarification I've been wondering this for a very long time.

 

[Firearms Iinstuctor]

I have found that signage that does not meet the regulatory requirements are not valid and do not have the power of law.

But it might take a trip in front of the judge to prove the point. Some times a lawyer and a pretrial conference with the DA is all it takes.

But the hassle of proving so can be costly.

 

[chrsjhnsn]

so, an AA club I frequent has a no gun sign

there is no alcohol on the premises, I conceal carry in there anyway-even though they have a gun with a circle around it slash, but black and white- not the red one .
they don't know, probably don't really care, they get funding from liberal non profits so they have to ban guns and tobacco use.
in NV they do the same but the offense is only a misdo, you only get cited if you refuse to leave- is it like that here in AZ when no liquor is present?

 

[solus]

there is no alcohol on the premises, I conceal carry in there anyway-even though they have a gun with a circle around it slash, but black and white- not the red one .
they don't know, probably don't really care, they get funding from liberal non profits so they have to ban guns and tobacco use.
in NV they do the same but the offense is only a misdo, you only get cited if you refuse to leave- is it like that here in AZ when no liquor is present?

so you are attendind an AA meeting who's entire premise is based on self control thru the 12 sreps and you yourself lack the self control to follow their wishes at the meeting to abide by no firearms !!

really?

might wish to discuss your actions on a deeper level with your sponsor...

further you do not know if any of those other attendees are felons, on probation, or other judicial oversight who you are jeopardizing by your inconsiderate and extremely selfish act.

ipse

 

[solus]

Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions surrender failed self-control to God (control). The Tenth of the Twelve Traditions, "Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy."

My closure/retirement therapist required I learn Twelve Steps as part of anger management.

i am so glad your pschotherapist was so enlightened to point you to the self control guidance of the 12 steps...yet apparently failed to show you other CBT adaptive techniques to utilize for resolution of your issue(s) which do not involve belief in or support from a deity and instead put the sole accountability of self control on you, the individual, for your actions.

ipse

 

[solus]

I am sure that you have no idea of what you drivel, less of my experience.

Oh trust me, you have provided quite enough objective material to have been analyzed quite nicely...as for your experience...well perhaps Harry Callahan summed it best...'legend in your own mind"

ipse

added: AZ'ians forgive my off track commentary

 

[JustaShooter]

further you do not know if any of those other attendees are felons, on probation, or other judicial oversight who you are jeopardizing by your inconsiderate and extremely selfish act.

Perhaps you would expand on this statement? I'm not sure how the act of carrying a concealed firearm would put another person who is under disability in jeopardy.

 

[The Trickster]

so you are attendind an AA meeting who's entire premise is based on self control thru the 12 sreps and you yourself lack the self control to follow their wishes at the meeting to abide by no firearms !!

really?

might wish to discuss your actions on a deeper level with your sponsor...

further you do not know if any of those other attendees are felons, on probation, or other judicial oversight who you are jeopardizing by your inconsiderate and extremely selfish act.

ipse

Would you be willing to further elaborate as to how exactly you manage to follow all the rules all the time?

 

[solus]

Would you be willing to further elaborate as to how exactly you manage to follow all the rules all the time?

i don't have any substance sobriety or addiction issues so abiding by AA, NA, etc. meeting culture or the 12 step protocols is not an issue for me, tho thanks for inquiring.

ipse

 

[solus]

Perhaps you would expand on this statement? I'm not sure how the act of carrying a concealed firearm would put another person who is under disability in jeopardy.

forgive my oversight to you justashooter, and as pointed out by nightmare in deference to the AA, NA etc. program's meeting cultures just allow me to say not every individual attending is sober or clean of substances during their attendance to these meetings.

second, there are attendees who have criminal pasts, are still in judicial process, or are under judicially ordered supervised probation.

thirdly, we have all read stories on these forum pages where the carrier admits to sloppily concealing, or plays show and tell w/their firearm, or it just is seen inadvertently!

(uh, i am not bringing up those individuals who might conceal carry w/o permit or might be a prohibited person who has a firearm in their possession.)

lastly, attendees mentioned above who might be adjucated felons, still in the judicial processes or under active probation are in some cases prohibited from being around firearms and those that have them.

since these programs are based on an individual's self control of restraining from drinking or using substances, why would that same individual not use their self control to respect the wishes of the AA or NA host and abide in their request to not have firearms at the meeting.

ipse

 

[The Trickster]

i don't have any substance sobriety or addiction issues so abiding by AA, NA, etc. meeting culture or the 12 step protocols is not an issue for me, tho thanks for inquiring.

ipse

You seem to take issue with the fact that someone ignores a gun-buster sign, ergo not following the rules. So again, can you offer some advice to those of us who do not follow all the rules all the time? I'd appreciate some tips and pointers because up until this point in my life, I have been unable to locate anyone who can offer unbiased and honest help with the subject since every-single-one of them disobeys the rules at some point or another. Perhaps I am incorrect? Maybe your pomposity is not genuine because you, just like everyone else, doesn't always do the "right thing" as expected?

If you don't want to elaborate and provide advice, that's fine - but it would seem based on your willingness to dole out lectures that you would be.

Thanks in advance.

 

[solus]

You seem to take issue with the fact that someone ignores a gun-buster sign, ergo not following the rules. So again, can you offer some advice to those of us who do not follow all the rules all the time? I'd appreciate some tips and pointers because up until this point in my life, I have been unable to locate anyone who can offer unbiased and honest help with the subject since every-single-one of them disobeys the rules at some point or another. Perhaps I am incorrect? Maybe your pomposity is not genuine because you, just like everyone else, doesn't always do the "right thing" as expected?

If you don't want to elaborate and provide advice, that's fine - but it would seem based on your willingness to dole out lectures that you would be.

Thanks in advance.

i will take the bait...

as my name suggests, and as i have espoused previously, i live in my world to the point where i do my darnest to not have to judicially defend myself, period. i am not guided by any moral compass nor belief in mythical retribution if i don't meet those mythical moral , etc., standards laid out in tomes from ancient past.

For example, if i do not like the sign...i work diligently to get it removed or work towards me, within the confines of applicable statutory limits, be allowed to be exempt, e.g., ask the proprietor if i am allowed in OC'g. they say yea or nay...if nay, i find another emporium who is interested in my $$$$ to support their business.

if we would be out and about together and while statutorily allowed to defend others from BGs, unless i can unequivocally state to the nice investigating LE i saw the BGs firearm being aimed towards me, i would not defend you and yours.

yes, i would and do sleep quite nicely every night knowing after such an incident where i didn't defend you and yours.

your attempt at degrading my commentary as being insincere or presenting false bravado is, fortunately, something you will never be able to verify...

ispe

 

[The Trickster]

i will take the bait...

as my name suggests, and as i have espoused previously, i live in my world to the point where i do my darnest to not have to judicially defend myself, period. i am not guided by any moral compass nor belief in mythical retribution if i don't meet those mythical moral , etc., standards laid out in tomes from ancient past.

For example, if i do not like the sign...i work diligently to get it removed or work towards me, within the confines of applicable statutory limits, be allowed to be exempt, e.g., ask the proprietor if i am allowed in OC'g. they say yea or nay...if nay, i find another emporium who is interested in my $$$$ to support their business.

if we would be out and about together and while statutorily allowed to defend others from BGs, unless i can unequivocally state to the nice investigating LE i saw the BGs firearm being aimed towards me, i would not defend you and yours.

yes, i would and do sleep quite nicely every night knowing after such an incident where i didn't defend you and yours.

your attempt at degrading my commentary as being insincere or presenting false bravado is, fortunately, something you will never be able to verify...

ispe

You're right.

I'm wrong. :banghead:

I'm sorry.

I'll change. :monkey:banana: