Wis. Stat. 941.23 unconstitutional

[J.Gleason]

j.Gleason:
The certification you speak of is not what I meant. A person can be certified in any number of things. I for example am certified as a qualified computer engineer and have a certificate to show it. The certification I spoke of is mearly a certificate produced by the state of Wisconsin that the holder is lawfully allowed to possess and carry a firearm. It would be no more than words to that effect and contain an indication that a background check has been performed. Carry in most other states, open or concealed, by a non-resident would likely not be honored without such evidence. It is not an infringement of any rights. In fact it is a type of validation that a person has the right to exercise the right to keep and bear arms in Wisconsin. I'm not talking about any mandatory training, weapon profieciency or permits. I'm talking only about a certification from the state that a person is in good standing and may lawfully carry a firearm. Perhaps you are too close to the LEO certification process to comprehend that of which I speak.

If we are successful in getting 941.23 repealed so that we have true choice of carry under the umbrella of Art I section 25 then it is my opinion we will need some document attesting to that right, and to our character before firearm carry reciprocity will be honored with Wisconsin by most other states.

Wouldn't this be nothing more than Registration?
Registration is the first step towards Confiscation.
I guess my point is this, If you drive in any other state as long as you have a drivers license you are OK, even though many states have different laws concerning traffic. Your license is still accepted without question.
Same with walking down the street you have the right to do so. Without question.
You also have the right to bear arms... Why should we have to be certified, registered or show proof? It is then no different then handing over your ID every time an LEO demands it. The only way to make change is to just do it and with that said as long as we keep giving in and accepting more permits, which automatically come with fees, we will never be rid of them. If every state in the country would understand this the tax payers would be a whole lot better off for it.

 

[davegran]

Source for List?

....

This is the list I have as it applies to citizens of the respective states. I doubt that the requirements of open carry for non-residence more relaxed.

....

Is there a single source for your very comprehensive list or did you have to assemble it from separate lists?

 

[Captain Nemo]

j.gleason:

Your example of a drivers license is similar to the kind of thing I'm talking about. I don't know what the term is for it but a vehicle operators license is valid in all states as a universal reciprocity. If you happen to be stopped by LEO in another state it is proof that you are qualified in your home state to operate a vehicle. That is proof in all 50 states that you are qualified to drive and is reciprocal in all the states, in fact throughout much of the world. In most states it is reciprocal for a limited time. If you change residency you must re-qualify your competency to drive according to that state's vehicle laws.

Bear in mind that a drivers license is a privlege that, if valid, gives you the right to drive on any public road. It is not a fundamental right given by any constitution I am aware of. It carries with it all sorts of mandatory bells and whistles one must comply with. I of course would not support any of that for carry of firearms. I am only talking about a document that can be obtained at a person's request from the state so that he/she can use it to carry in other states that would recognize it as a valid qualification to carry a firearm. No firearm information, perhaps not even an address. Perhaps just name and physical information and state of origin and totally voluntary.

The 2nd amendment, especially since the Heller and McDonald decisions, only guarantees that congress and the legislatures of the states can not deny any law-abiding individual the possession of arms and the right to keep them in their home. Beyond that the what, where, when and how is largely still left to the states. Right now there are roughly 250 lawsuits filed to challenge those conditions. The results of those challenges and mandatory change in state law will likely not be known or happen for years. ----My opinion

.

 

[J.Gleason]

j.gleason:

Your example of a drivers license is similar to the kind of thing I'm talking about. I don't know what the term is for it but a vehicle operators license is valid in all states as a universal reciprocity. If you happen to be stopped by LEO in another state it is proof that you are qualified in your home state to operate a vehicle. That is proof in all 50 states that you are qualified to drive and is reciprocal in all the states, in fact throughout much of the world. In most states it is reciprocal for a limited time. If you change residency you must re-qualify your competency to drive according to that state's vehicle laws.

Bear in mind that a drivers license is a privlege that, if valid, gives you the right to drive on any public road. It is not a fundamental right given by any constitution I am aware of. It carries with it all sorts of mandatory bells and whistles one must comply with. I of course would not support any of that for carry of firearms. I am only talking about a document that can be obtained at a person's request from the state so that he/she can use it to carry in other states that would recognize it as a valid qualification to carry a firearm. No firearm information, perhaps not even an address. Perhaps just name and physical information and state of origin and totally voluntary.

The 2nd amendment, especially since the Heller and McDonald decisions, only guarantees that congress and the legislatures of the states can not deny any law-abiding individual the possession of arms and the right to keep them in their home. Beyond that the what, where, when and how is largely still left to the states. Right now there are roughly 250 lawsuits filed to challenge those conditions. The results of those challenges and mandatory change in state law will likely not be known or happen for years. ----My opinion

.

It would definitely be a start as long as your name isn't placed on a register.

 

[Captain Nemo]

davegran:

http://www.carryconcealed.net/

The information in the link was not totally accurate. I had to relocate Wisconsin and Arizona. Washington D.C. is not a state so I removed it from my list. I just tried to enter the site and noticed that the section on reciprocity is being maintained at this time so perhaps those changes are being made.

 

[Doug Huffman]

The Drivers License Compat WAS voluntary. Now we have the Drivers License Agreement

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driver_License_Compact

All states are members except for Georgia, Michigan, Wisconsin, Tennessee (dropped out in 1997). Nevada repealed the authorizing legislation in 2007, though it still generally conforms to the agreement through regulations.

 

[Captain Nemo]

Sorry davegran:
I posted the incorrect link. This is the correct one.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/2076953/open_carry_firearm_states_list_and_pg1.html?cat=7

 

[AaronS]

It would definitely be a start as long as your name isn't placed on a register.

I agree with you on that, but the fact is that if this kind of law were to pass in Wisconsin, you would be on a register of some kind. And I also agree with you that registration is the first step towards confiscation. I can only look at our past, and see what registration has done for other places.
So, if you want to be on a list, go for it. I would like to stay off it though, if you dont mind. I would just hate to have to burry all my guns, so the "man" can't take them away... A gun under the ground does me no good at all...
The free carry of arms is a right I think worth fighting for. I only wish the NRA felt the same way about this. We sure could use some help, and the NRA does have a lot of power (and money)...

 

[Doug Huffman]

That's quite a dilemma that we face, isn't it?
When it's time to bury our guns then it's time to dig them up!
Or die on our knees like slaves.

 

[AaronS]

That's quite a dilemma that we face, isn't it?
When it's time to bury our guns then it's time to dig them up!
Or die on our knees like slaves.

So true, so true...

 

[Captain Nemo]

Aarons:
I had a FFL for 25 years. If you purchased a handgun from a FFL holder in Wisconsin beleive me you are already on a "list".

 

[davegran]

Source of State Laws Compilation

Sorry davegran:
I posted the incorrect link. This is the correct one.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/2076953/open_carry_firearm_states_list_and_pg1.html?cat=7

Thanks, Captain, I appreciate your posting the compilation.
After following your link I see that it was published back on August 18, 2009 by:
Think Big
and his sources were:
Wikimedia
National Rifle Association

I'm hoping to find a compilation of the states that is kept up to date and has some more reputable sources. Perhaps the best way is to personally visit the state's firearm sites that I'll be traveling through and verify the laws myself; you know, take responsibility for my own actions? :idea: This dang freedom stuff can be a lot of work, hey?

 

[Tomas]

1245A defender:
...
Permissive Open Carry States which means the states have passed full preemption regarding all firearm laws. These states permit open carry to all law-abiding citizens without a criminal record without any special permit or firearms license. The open carry is legal for a citizen on foot or in a motor vehicle. The states that allow this are Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, Arizona, New Mexico, South Dakota, Vermont, West Virginia, Wisconsin, Virginia, Alaska and Kentucky.
...
Anomalous Open Carry States open carry in these states are generally lawful, but the state itself may have other stiff restrictions to deter citizens from carry a firearm open. The laws in these states are very grey and could cause you a lot of problems if you go toting a gun around openly. The states that have a lot of grey area on open carry are Washington, Oregon, Nevada, California, Colorado, Missouri, Kansas, Louisiana , Mississippi, Alabama, North Carolina, Nebraska, Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Maine, Delaware and New Hampshire.

...
many of the states you listed with GREY areas dont belong on that list,
washington is my state, we enjoy full state preemption,
restrictions against are uniform in most states, no carry in jails, courts, schools, others/etc

I believe the "problem" with Washington state that puts it in the "grey" as opposed to the more permissive list is that while one can carry openly on the street one CANNOT openly carry in one's car without a Carry License/Permit from either Washington or a reciprocal state. A very fast way to run into problems if one is not familiar with Washington state's little quirk.

(And of course there are still some officers and prosecutors who make it ugly at times, IE: Vancouver...)
________

Seriously, though, I really enjoyed reading the court decision that started this! Well researched, thought out, and written.