What Happened Here?

[22Luke36]

The Michigan forum here on OCDO used to be so...alive, for the lack of a better term. What happened? I used to lurk on here a lot, then sort of lost interest for a while due to so much infighting. I started coming back online, and now the place is dead. What happened? Seems more than seasonal.

 

[Venator]

The Michigan forum here on OCDO used to be so...alive, for the lack of a better term. What happened? I used to lurk on here a lot, then sort of lost interest for a while due to so much infighting. I started coming back online, and now the place is dead. What happened? Seems more than seasonal.

Well, lets see. MOC has a forum, MGO has an OC forum, but those are slow as well. I think Facebook has taken a lot of the people away as it has gained in popularity. MCRGO, MGO and MOC all have FB pages with a lot of action. Also OC in general has slowed down as more and more people know about it and less questions and issues come up.

 

[22Luke36]

I just saw a FB post by MCRGO asking members if they should go independent, or continue working with the other groups.

I think that we would be better off working together, instead of being in such divided ranks.

 

[Evil Creamsicle]

Now that most police departments generally accept that it is legal and have stopped [read: reduced the frequency of] assaulting people, there has been less need. [Yes, I know there is still a lot to be done]

 

[Rusty Young Man]

Now that most police departments generally accept that it is legal and have stopped [read: reduced the frequency of] assaulting people, there has been less need. [Yes, I know there is still a lot to be done]

Same thing in the AZ forum. Let's hope it really is the normalization of OC (we are in the business of putting ourselves out of business in that regard) and not antis getting our members...

The only regulars I see now are MAC702 and FreeInAZ, and even they seem to post less often.
Don't want to be "Last of the OCers" here in AZ.

 

[Michigander]

First this forum was a place where only a handful of free thinking people were active. Then it started gaining steam, and things got interesting. Then the people I initially called bandwagon jumpers, and now more accurately call collectivists started to get involved. Then it became a mix of good and nonsense. Finally, it got to where we are now, where the fight to get state law complied with by cops is fairly won, and it's played out.

Personally, I am okay with played out. It beats the alternative, where we have to fight court battles where someone is being prosecuted for no reason at all.

What we are left with is an information resource. Yes, it would be nice if this forum, and indeed the gun community in Michigan could get things in gear, and gain as much power as pro gun people in AZ and Virginia. I however don't see it happening, because despite the fact SE Michigan people get things done hard fast and immediately, we have too many fudds, and too many people in the mid west in general persist in living here because they don't respect themselves on some level, and aren't as concerned as someone in a beautiful and free place might be at living the best life they can.

Not that I am saying be defeatist, not at all, but it will always be an uphill battle to keep activists united and in gear in Michigan (I mean that as in all gun rights activism, not just OCing). There aren't many who are serious about it relative to the state's population, and there is a whole lot of not caring at the moment among the few, probably in large part due to our anti gun governor.

 

[Yooper]

It may also be partially because there isn't any great gun bills in the legislature right now. If we had bills moving that eliminated the permit to purchase, eliminated PFZ's and legalized OC (and uncased carry for longuns) in a vehicle, I bet this forum would be a lot more active

 

[22Luke36]

First this forum was a place where only a handful of free thinking people were active. Then it started gaining steam, and things got interesting. Then the people I initially called bandwagon jumpers, and now more accurately call collectivists started to get involved. Then it became a mix of good and nonsense. Finally, it got to where we are now, where the fight to get state law complied with by cops is fairly won, and it's played out.

Personally, I am okay with played out. It beats the alternative, where we have to fight court battles where someone is being prosecuted for no reason at all.

What we are left with is an information resource. Yes, it would be nice if this forum, and indeed the gun community in Michigan could get things in gear, and gain as much power as pro gun people in AZ and Virginia. I however don't see it happening, because despite the fact SE Michigan people get things done hard fast and immediately, we have too many fudds, and too many people in the mid west in general persist in living here because they don't respect themselves on some level, and aren't as concerned as someone in a beautiful and free place might be at living the best life they can.

Not that I am saying be defeatist, not at all, but it will always be an uphill battle to keep activists united and in gear in Michigan (I mean that as in all gun rights activism, not just OCing). There aren't many who are serious about it relative to the state's population, and there is a whole lot of not caring at the moment among the few, probably in large part due to our anti gun governor.

Well said. From what I can gather, none of the other groups and/or lobbyists in Michigan are getting anywhere with their interests in Lansing either. This legislature as a whole is an utter and complete failure.

It may also be partially because there isn't any great gun bills in the legislature right now. If we had bills moving that eliminated the permit to purchase, eliminated PFZ's and legalized OC (and uncased carry for longuns) in a vehicle, I bet this forum would be a lot more active

I think that if we want these things, then it is going to be up to us to get active first.

 

[FreeInAZ]

Well on a side note - Arizona Citizens Defense League - is just 300 hundred members short of reaching the 10,000 member mark. So looking at it like a legislator - if you have a well funded group that can be your friend & all its members and their family & friends all vote a certain way, you can choose to be their friend, or to have them try to have your a$$ thrown out of office. They usually make the choices that help themselves before all else. In MI there are groups that try hard, but they lack the numbers and money to be a threat to legislators - and that is what politicians are all about, getting a carrot or being afraid of being clubbed out of office by a BIG STICK.

 

[lil_freak_66]

we have largely accomplished the goal of OCDO for michigan.....to help make open carry a well known practice with the public and government and to educate the masses on it. no longer is it some "new" mysterious thing coming out of the gun rights closet that everyone wants to jump in on, it is somewhat common now and almost never an issue with the law or business owners or anyone really(except for shannon watts and diane feinstein, of course) and is generally accepted by the public, whether they like it or not, to be legal and not pose a significant safety and security risk. i remember when i first came on some years back the whole michigan page would refresh with new threads just about daily...hundreds of posts a day filled with people asking about legality, debating details and setting up several OC meets every single weekend, now its not this big new thing....its just, dare i say it? normal now.

 

[22Luke36]

OK then, on to car carry?

If we are heading in that direction, then we should all agree on what to call it.

Car OC...Castle Doctrine extended to vehicles,...Permitless Vehicle Carry, etc... I like the castle doctrine tag.

 

[Michigander]

I like the castle doctrine tag.

New Mexico, as I recall, calls it "extended domain". I personally like that name.

 

[22Luke36]

Extended feels like...permission almost?

 

[FreeInAZ]

Not to go too far off topic - I have always said if law makers in Lansing really want to get rid of open carry, they should just enact constitutional carry. That gives them what they want and allows law-abiding citizens to carry as needed. Here in AZ it's been (Const. Carry) the law for over 3 years. Guess what? Open carry is about as common as seeing a unicorn. Most people 98%+ will choose conceal/discreet carry. Now they maybe worried about losing $ on the CPL scam. Guess what? Not the case here either - demand is at an all time high, as people like options.

If you're reading mrs./mr. LE/Legislator you may want to take notes.

 

[jeffrey-r]

OK then, on to car carry?

If we are heading in that direction, then we should all agree on what to call it.

Car OC...Castle Doctrine extended to vehicles,...Permitless Vehicle Carry, etc... I like the castle doctrine tag.

We already have "Castle Doctrine" in our vehicles. I totally agree on the other vehicle carry though.

http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-780-951
780.951(1)(a)The individual against whom deadly force or force other than deadly force is used is in the process of breaking and entering a dwelling or business premises or committing home invasion or has broken and entered a dwelling or business premises or committed home invasion and is still present in the dwelling or business premises, or is unlawfully attempting to remove another individual from a dwelling, business premises, or occupied vehicle against his or her will.

 

[22Luke36]

We already have "Castle Doctrine" in our vehicles. .[/B]

Sure, with your bare hands.

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(3v...eg.aspx?page=getObject&objectName=mcl-750-227

 

[OC4me]

I'm all for permit-less vehicle carry either legislatively or through the courts. I truly think that the complete ban, on possession of a functional weapon readily available for immediate use in self-defense inside one's car, is (almost) ripe for a legal challenge.

An ideal Plaintiff would be a U.S. citizen residing in Vermont or Canada who spends time in Michigan (but not enough to qualify for Michigan residency) and therefore is unable to obtain a concealed carry permit or a senior citizen on a fixed limited income who cannot afford the cost of a concealed carry permit.

I also strongly in favor of Constitutional Carry as the preferred remedy for Michigan.

Does anybody know whether the other groups are inclined towards pushing for the same thing?

 

[22Luke36]

I've heard a rumble here and there.

All it takes, is someone who won't take a plea. I have heard that there were a couple candidates for the challenge, but they have all backed out.

 

[OC4me]

I've heard a rumble here and there.

All it takes, is someone who won't take a plea. I have heard that there were a couple candidates for the challenge, but they have all backed out.

The last thing we would want is a criminal case used as the vehicle for challenging the car ban in court. What I had in mind was a Plaintiff challenging the constitutionality of the law where we are in the driver's seat (Civil Rights Case). Of course, the Plaintiff would be a carefully chosen sympathetic law-abiding citizen.

 

[22Luke36]

I was thinking of the (innocent until proven guilty) accused criminal using the Michigan Constitution as a basis for a defense.