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Wait inside your apartment

NightOwl

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, California, USA
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Last night at around 7pm I was laying down for a nap, with the tv on. I thought I heard some screaming nearby, so I turned down the tv. A moment later, I determined that the lady who lives in the apartment above me was the one screaming "help, call 911" and there was some jostling around up there-my ceiling fan was shaking and I could hear heavy movement. I promptly made the call, and got dressed, then went downstairs to open the front door of my apartment building (it's a "locked" building, 3 stories, central stairwell) to let the police in-they made great time. The screaming had stopped while I was getting some clothes on, shortly after the "call 911" was heard. My gun was on my belt, on the pants I put back on.

After letting the police in, I'm standing out front smoking, when two of the cops run out the front door and around the building to the right (if you're facing the building). I hear a car starting in the parking lot, on the left, a moment later and direct the officer who returned that way a moment later. Other cop gets in his car and goes racing around the corner. A little while later, a fire engine pulls up for what I assume to be a paramedic call, and they proceed upstairs, I hold the door for them.

At this point, I'm up on my floor, talking with the neighbor across from me. Her and I were discussing what was going on, and it wasn't a long conversation, just general talk about the building. One of the original responding officers comes back downstairs from the third floor and asks me to go inside my apartment, "that" (with a gesture towards my gun) was making "people" nervous. I asked why, I'm not doing anything wrong, and I'm on my property (ok, it's an apartment, I don't own the outside, etc, beside the point). He just makes his point that they need to keep an eye on everything that's happening nearby due to the incident upstairs, and if I didn't want to they'd send someone to keep an eye on me. My neighbor was apparently disgusted by this point and went inside, so I asked the cop to let me know when they were done so I could talk to my neighbor upstairs, and went inside. I know that the neighbor I was talking to didn't have a problem with it, she's been my neighbor for some time now and we've discussed the matter previously.

The more I think about it, the more ticked off I get. I'm the one who called, they know I wasn't involved in the incident, I've been nothing but helpful, and I'm on my porch *inside* the building and not in the way. Thoughts? I'm tempted to call and complain, but not sure what exactly to say yet. I'll be calling to get the incident number later on today for reference in a complaint, if I do file one. I'd appreciate any input on the matter either way. Call and complain, let it drop, or something altogether different?

Edit: Apparently it made the news. http://www.idahopress.com/news/?id=21832
 

Flyer22

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Was there anybody else around besides that one neighbor? If not, then the officer was just making up some excuse to try to get you back inside.

If you decide to complain, you could make the point that this officer seemed willing to draw resources away from fighting crime in order to keep watch on a peaceable person who was calmly exercising his rights.

If you do complain, I'd be happy to help you with the wording.
 

IndianaBoy79

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As the situation already seemed tense, I think you did the right thing not standing your ground on the issue and going back inside. But I certainly would give them a call or write them to tell how you feel about the matter. Personally, I get nervous on phone calls but do great when I have time to put my thoughts into written form.

Out of curiosity, do you know what happened in the aftermath of the 911 call?
 

Citizen

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I'd send them a letter. Not so much a complaint, but a realignment of reality for them.

Sacred right, etc. And, ridiculous that police would waste resources watching a citizen who takes enough responsibility to defend himself and others. Makes the 911 call.

I've decided I very much like Mark Marchifavia's response:

Cop: "You're making people nervous."

OCer: "They'll just have to get used to it."
 

PT111

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, South Carolina, USA
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Considering that there was a BG running around, he had fled but maybe he was not the only one, theLEO and EMT were there investigating I think that it was more of and excuse to get you back into your apartment than anything to do with the gun. I agree that you had every right to be out ther talking with your neighbor but what if there was another BG in the apartment that all of a sudden started running and you were facing the LEO standing outside your apartment with a gun. Thing could have gotten hairy.

I would say just drop it. Thge people you were making nervous may have been the LEO and EMT's.:? As I said they were investigating a crime scene where the suspect was on the loose. He may have exaggerated but he did want you out of the way in case anything did break loose. In a case like this the last thing the police want is everyone standing around in the open when they are looking for a suspect. Just a thought.
 

NightOwl

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, California, USA
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No further info on the incident yet. I'll go upstairs tomorrow, I've not heard any noise up there yet, so I'm guessing she's not home. I'm hoping she's alright, but as I don't really know her, I'd like to not disturb her too much so she has a chance to recover.

I didn't go back inside from a choice of "I want to be agreeable", but rather due to my neighbor going back in. Standing in front of my door staring at other doors while being stared at didn't seem enjoyable. If I'd be able to simply continue to mind my own business and talk to my neighbor, I'd have told him to send someone to watch me if he so chose. There was no tension at that point anyhow, since the guy had fled successfully (for a little while, anyhow) and there was nothing going on except for medical assistance in the upstairs apartment.

Citizen, I like that too, would have used something like that if I'd stayed outside.

PT111, there was no other badguy, it was a male/female domestic dispute, and at the point where I was asked to go back inside, that was well confirmed. After all, they'd already chased the guy off and had been speaking to her for a good 10 minutes by then. They knew he'd driven off. When the incident was active, I'd been helpful and stayed out from underfoot. Heck, even if the whole thing had restarted somehow, the landing is pretty big, and more than sufficient for them to chase people up and down the stairs without me or my neighbor being in the way. It's not a tiny stairwell, it's large and central to the building...maybe, 12 by 6 or so (I didn't measure, just ballparking). I'm pretty sure it was the firemen/emts that were nervous, but really, that's their problem and not mine. At least it was until they sent the cop down to ask me to go back inside.
 

PT111

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, South Carolina, USA
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NightOwl wrote:
No further info on the incident yet. I'll go upstairs tomorrow, I've not heard any noise up there yet, so I'm guessing she's not home. I'm hoping she's alright, but as I don't really know her, I'd like to not disturb her too much so she has a chance to recover.

I didn't go back inside from a choice of "I want to be agreeable", but rather due to my neighbor going back in. Standing in front of my door staring at other doors while being stared at didn't seem enjoyable. If I'd be able to simply continue to mind my own business and talk to my neighbor, I'd have told him to send someone to watch me if he so chose. There was no tension at that point anyhow, since the guy had fled successfully (for a little while, anyhow) and there was nothing going on except for medical assistance in the upstairs apartment.

Citizen, I like that too, would have used something like that if I'd stayed outside.

PT111, there was no other badguy, it was a male/female domestic dispute, and at the point where I was asked to go back inside, that was well confirmed. After all, they'd already chased the guy off and had been speaking to her for a good 10 minutes by then. They knew he'd driven off. When the incident was active, I'd been helpful and stayed out from underfoot. Heck, even if the whole thing had restarted somehow, the landing is pretty big, and more than sufficient for them to chase people up and down the stairs without me or my neighbor being in the way. It's not a tiny stairwell, it's large and central to the building...maybe, 12 by 6 or so (I didn't measure, just ballparking). I'm pretty sure it was the firemen/emts that were nervous, but really, that's their problem and not mine. At least it was until they sent the cop down to ask me to go back inside.
We know that now and probably everyone felt that way at the time. I was just bringing that out as every time someone brings up some scenario someone pops up with what about his partner. :idea: It's like why does everyone slow down at an accident scene even though it is in the other lane of a divided highway with a concrete median between. I still say just forget about it even though you are PO'd at his actions and I am not condoning them. For what it is worth you did exactly what you needed to do by calling 911 immediately and unlocking the door for them. Maybe instead of telling you to go back inside they should have thanked you but remember that for you it is a rare occurance but for them it is several times a day and most people hinder instead of help. Sometimes they get jaded to everything.
 

chrsjhnsn

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the bad guy looks like a bad guy, I wouldn't complain but I would keep a close eye on the case and be extra carefull when he gets released and if he sends friends around for retribution.
 

idahoguy84

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At least the K-9 dog bit the bastard. I wonder if the LEOs worried about their dogs making people nervous...
 

smoking357

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Your gun is entitled to go wherever you go, certainly on your own property.

I wouldn't have went inside. Cops are servants, not masters, and they don't give orders.

Martial law sees orders given for people to go inside.
 

GoldCoaster

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idahoguy84 wrote:
At least the K-9 dog bit the bastard. I wonder if the LEOs worried about their dogs making people nervous...
I'm guessing the LEO's were probably more worried about their dogs catching something nasty from biting that scumbag.
 

IndianaBoy79

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smoking357 wrote:
Your gun is entitled to go wherever you go, certainly on your own property.

I wouldn't have went inside. Cops are servants, not masters, and they don't give orders.

Martial law sees orders given for people to go inside.
Indeed, no none is arguing the fact that the OP had every RIGHT to be out there. I also tend to have the initial "you can't tell me what to do" attitude when anyone tells me what to do. And in this case, I'd be right, they can't tell me what to do. It doesn't sound like the cop was trying to be commanding, he simply asked him to go inside for what could be several reasons, some of them quite good. If he was just driving by doing a patrol at the apartment complex I live at, then I most certainly would have a terrible attitude about it. In this situation, there was a little more going on and I think some understanding on our part would be the mature thing to do at the time. There is no shame in "submitting" for the moment and then making your feelings known at a more opportune time.

PT111 had it right: "remember that for you it is a rare occurance but for them it is several times a day and most people hinder instead of help. Sometimes they get jaded to everything."

There are times to fight and argue, and there are times to let it go. This is one of those times to have let it go and take it up later if necessary.
 

IdahoCorsair

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I wouldn't have let them bully me. In this case it's likely he just wanted to get you inside to eliminate more 'faces' to scan... but it's still not his business telling you what to do unless you're directly interfering... which apparently you were not.

btw, good on you!
 

smoking357

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IndianaBoy79 wrote:
There are times to fight and argue, and there are times to let it go. This is one of those times to have let it go and take it up later if necessary.
There are never times to take orders from a cop when you're doing nothing wrong.

Backing down emboldens them for the next encroachment.
 

IndianaBoy79

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Next time a cop puts his lights on and you don't believe you are breaking the law, do you plan to pull over?

Where does this animosity come from? I didn't say anyone should just "take orders" laying down. I said it can sometimes be smart to argue about it at a different time, or even go as far as trying to see their view. I don't believe in this case anyone was ordered around so much as he was asked to do something he felt inclined not to. I fully support your right not to comply with a simple request, but you seem to want to say no just because someone made a request in the first place. Where does this attitude come from?

Edited:
Nevermind, i see where it comes from in several previous posts. All one has to do is read your history here.

Your just out looking for a fight. Don't worry, I won't bother the likes of you with my "feelings" again. I'm sure there are several forums out there for you to join that support your anti-government stances on things. The difference between you and others I see with similar views is they want to restore government to its proper place, and they choose their battles carefully. You seem to want a confrontation in any situation. Best of luck.

BTW, WHERE are you? You seem to want everyone to "man up" but are hiding behind the anonymity the internet offers. Have you ever met an Idaho cop? Sure, we have our occasional mishap, and members I respect will disagree with me that most of them are good apples. Those same people probably wouldn't want to trade our cops for cops from California or elsewhere. Just wondering where you are because that might shed some legitimate light on your feelings.
 

smoking357

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IndianaBoy79 wrote:
I fully support your right not to comply with a simple request, but you seem to want to say no just because someone made a request in the first place. Where does this attitude come from?

Lexington.

Concord.
 

4liberty

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smoking357 wrote:
IndianaBoy79 wrote: 
I fully support your right not to comply with a simple request, but you seem to want to say no just because someone made a request in the first place.  Where does this attitude come from?                           

Lexington.

Concord.
This forum gets more and more interesting every day! I love the 1st ammendment!
 

NightOwl

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IndianaBoy79 wrote:
Have you ever met an Idaho cop? Sure, we have our occasional mishap, and members I respect will disagree with me that most of them are good apples. Those same people probably wouldn't want to trade our cops for cops from California or elsewhere. Just wondering where you are because that might shed some legitimate light on your feelings.

In all honesty, I'm very concerned when I do have to interact with Idaho police. Seems like every couple of months there's a police shooting with the officers consistently found to be not guilty of anything via internal investigation. A great example is an incident where a mentally insane man was in the back room of his ex wifes house with a bread knife, and the police were called to remove him, nobody was in the house except for him. IIRC there were 7 officers on scene when they went in and shot him for charging at them with the bread knife. Officers found not guilty of any wrongdoing. That man could have been alive today if they'd tossed in some teargas, had a negotiator come out, shot him with a tazer, or any scenario that involved a little common sense. He was not, at the time, a threat to anybody, he was alone in a back room and not known to be suicidal, though he was certifiably insane. Where was the non-lethal ammunition (bean bags or something), where was the pepper spray and close the door on him for a minute while it takes effect?

Had I not been concerned for the life of my neighbor, I wouldn't have called, I'd have gone up there to make contact myself, just like I do when people play the music or party too loudly (just to be clear, the sound of it was definately a serious incident and calling the police was what I immediately did, and I'm not regretting that, it was the correct choice due to the evident sounds of hostility and terror from upstairs). Far too many incidents of officers shooting people then sticking together in a not-guilty investigation. That man in the example was murdered by the police, flat out. It could have gone much better had they not wanted to shoot him and had attempted non-lethal force. I understand they all want to go home at the end of the day, but it wasn't a situation of coming around the corner and finding someone charging at you, they knew where he was and that he wasn't a threat until they made him one by going in there with guns drawn instead of non-lethal force. No riot shield? No baton?

Another quick example is a teenage boy, around 14-15 iirc, with a musket that had a bayonette on it on drugs in his father's front yard, police called by the father. The musket was plugged, and was completely incapable of firing. Officers arrived, and shot the boy. No taser? Pepper spray? Baton? Surely a 14 year old with a non-firing musket w/bayonette can't be THAT much of a threat to the life ofmultiple trainedofficers who were aware of where he was and not suddenly surprised by his appearance. The father was, understandably, crushed, since he contacted the police to avoid anybody getting hurt, and his son was shot to death as a result. Internal investigation found the officers actions to be acceptable, no charges filed.

Perhaps I express this all a bit too forcefully, as I don't tremble in my boots when I see an Idaho police officer, though I do think that many in this general area are a bit...perhaps bloodthirsty might be an applicable term. Still, I *am* concerned for the life of anyone on the receiving end of an idaho police call, and I think twice before contacting them. Those were only a couple of examples, there are plenty more. I don't recall the exact location of those, but they were somewhere in the area of Caldwell to Boise. In general I'm sure that most of the officers are decent enough folks. They don't bother me, I don't bother them. However, there seems to be a bad element, and they seem to stick together very, very tightly when there's a shooting investigation that inevitably finds the officers to have done the right thing...even when it's clear that they didn't. Calling Idaho police is a scary thing, to me. It shouldn't be that way. It's mighty hard to tell which ones are the bad apples, so it sort of makes the whole barrel suspect, I guess you could say. I just...I just find it to be a very sad, depressing situation when I find myself wondering if the police are going to murder someone if they get called. I certainly hope I'm never in a situation where I need to call them out for more than a loud dog or to take a report again....I don't want to feel like the father of that teenager felt, by calling the police to help and instead costing someone their life.

Note: To briefly touch on your prior post, IndianaBoy, I'm about 99.9% sure that it was the fire department that was nervous about me being armed, since the police had been on site and interacted with me a few times over the course of the incident without saying anything, and the officer came down after the fire department went up.
 

Vandal

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NightOwl, you remember incorrectly.

The high school student was in possession of a WWII Japanese 8mm rilfe with bayonet attached. He charged the single BPD officer from the bushes by his home and stuck the cop through his jacket. According to the Tueller Rule (which has been held up in court) a person within 21 feet with an edged weapon is an immediate and lethal threat. That teen was well within 21 feet and had already attempted to stab the cop after going apesh!t inside of his home. If you would have pulled the trigger it would have been justified and so was that one. Oddly enough the same rule applies to the guy with the bread knife.

Before you go ragging on our cops do some research about the cases you so poorly cite. You should also look into the use of force continuum that LEOs use.

I would much rather have Idaho cops than CA or Spokane cops here. They may be found not-guilty in their shootings but that is because they tend to play by the rules around here and are not a corrupt agency like LAPD, Spokane PD or any host of others. If you don't like 'em leave my state.

Call me a LEO apologist, or whatever you want but before you go calling out people and situations you have very little knowledge of do some research into the cases. You appear to have virtually zero knowledge of police procedure, if you had any you would know the cops did what needed to be done. Of course you seem to have a hard on for stirring up trouble around here. Personally I don't trust you with a firearm with your attitude, but living in Nampa it kinda come with the territory.
 
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