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Voting while carrying

solus

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images


thought i might assist skid...

ipse
 

DeSchaine

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Actually, I think Gutshot has something there. I'd check with a lawyer, but the way the statute reads, if you have a valid AZ carry license, you can carry in a polling place.
 

azcdlfred

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Actually, I think Gutshot has something there. I'd check with a lawyer, but the way the statute reads, if you have a valid AZ carry license, you can carry in a polling place.
ARS 13-3102.A says "a person commits misconduct with a weapon by knowingly:" followed by several things not allowed. When you get to ARS 13-3012.11 it says "Unless specifically authorized by law, entering an election polling place on the day of any election carrying a deadly weapon."

Putting together you are committing a crime by carrying a deadly weapon (a gun is a deadly weapon) into a polling place on election day.

The exceptions are listed in ARS 13-3012.C - Having a CCW permit is not on the list. ARS 13-3102.C.4 ("A person specifically licensed, authorized or permitted pursuant to a statute of this state or of the United States.") is probably what is causing the confusion. A CCW permit is not a "license or permit" specifically authorized (or even vaguely alluded to) in any Arizona or federal statute that is covered by this section.

All the "specifically authorized" are covered in the preceding 3 subparagraphs.

Fred
 

DeSchaine

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Ok, so in AZ, a CCW license or permit is NOT a license or permit? Uh huh. Then why have them? Additionally, why add subpara 4 if the only exceptions are already spelled out in the three preceding subparas?

It stands to reason that in a state where you don't actually NEED a CCW permit to carry, a person that has one IS "specifically licensed, authorized or permitted pursuant to a statute of this state" especially when ARS 13-3112 deals specifically with concealed weapons permits and the issuance thereof.

Again, INAL, so the OP'er should find one and ask them.
 

azcdlfred

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Ok, so in AZ, a CCW license or permit is NOT a license or permit? Uh huh. Then why have them?
In Arizona the CCW permit process creates a government database of those who officially seek permission to carry discreetly and issues them a "permit" to do so.

However, it is not a permit to carry in a polling place. Check out ARS 13-3112, the concealed weapons statutes. All that is being granted is a permit to carry a non-exposed weapon in a state where there is no requirement to seek government approval to carry a weapon, exposed or discreetly.

Like someone suggested, check with an attorney.

Fred
 

azcdlfred

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Ok, so in AZ, a CCW license or permit is NOT a license or permit? Uh huh. Then why have them?
The 1912 Arizona Constitution says that the right to bear arms "shall not be impaired."

In 1990 a state appeals court ruled, and the Supreme Court declined to review, that it was not an impairment to restrict concealed carry.

In 1994 the Legislature instead of reaffirming the right to keep and bear arms created, with NRA's input, the abomination that became our CCW process. It only granted permission to carry a weapon concealed in lieu of open carry which was (and is) constitutionally protected. No other privileges are granted those with a CCW permit. It did little more than prevent you from being arrested if your gun was not in plain view from the perspective of the observer.

In 2005 AzCDL was founded. In 2010 we got legislation passed removing the requirement to have a CCW permit to carry discreetly.

The CCW permit was not eliminated, just made optional. A CCW permit is useful for those who travel to other states and is only required in establishments that serve booze - if they don't post a no-guns sign. Other than that there is no reason to have one.

Fred
 
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azcdlfred

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Update - The polling place statute was created a long time before the CCW permit statute. I have been informed that courts have ruled (sorry, no citations) that it was not the intent of the Legislature to include CCW permits in the polling place permit exception since permits did not exist at the time the polling place statute was written.

Fred
 

Fallschirjmäger

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I am not so sure. What does this mean?
C. Subsection A, paragraphs 2, 3, 7, 10, 11, 12 and 13 of this section shall not apply to:
1. A peace officer or any person summoned by any peace officer to assist and while actually assisting in the performance of official duties; or
2. A member of the military forces of the United States or of any state of the United States in the performance of official duties; or
3. A warden, deputy warden, community correctional officer, detention officer, special investigator or correctional officer of the state department of corrections or the department of juvenile corrections; or
4. A person specifically licensed, authorized or permitted pursuant to a statute of this state or of the United States.​

The prohibition on carry in a polling place is in subsection A., paragraph 11. Does this mean that if you have an Arizona license you can carry in a polling place? Sure seems like it.

I am sure that someone that is much more familiar with Arizona law will solve this dilemma for me. You might have to refund that 3 cents, skidmark.

It depends, does the phrase 'specifically license, authorized or permitted' have some specific meaning?
Must one be specifically permitted to carry while voting in order to carry while voting, or can just anyone do it? If just anyone can carry whilst voting then why specify that it must be specified that one must be specifically licensed, authorized or permitted?

I get the idea that 'specifically' must have a certain ....... ahem, specific, meaning in this AZ Code.

p.s. Funny thing even licensed, qualified, certified, diploma-ed police officers cannot by law carry while voting, unless they are in the performance of their duties (which I'm pretty sure voting isn't.)

(As a point of interest, GA Code is somewhat similar, a prohibition against carrying in any polling place AND within 150 feet of any such place
 
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azcdlfred

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It depends, does the phrase 'specifically license, authorized or permitted' have some specific meaning?
Must one be specifically permitted to carry while voting in order to carry while voting, or can just anyone do it? If just anyone can carry whilst voting then why specify that it must be specified that one must be specifically licensed, authorized or permitted?
The law was written way before the CCW laws and does not apply to CCW permits.

Fred
 

azcdlfred

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Having lived in Aridzona back when it was 'carry any way you want, as long as it's openly', I'm of the same opinion. The issuance of a general license to carry isn't a specific license, authorization, or permit.
Some of the confusion is what the CCW permit is and is not.

It is not a general license to carry. "Bearing arms" is constitutionally protected. You don't need a permit to open carry. In 1990 the courts ruled that the constitutional protection on bearing arms did not apply to concealed carry. In 1994 the Legislature created a permit system for nothing more than allowing a person to carry concealed. No other privileges or licenses were included.

As an aside, that same year (1994) the courts ruled that unless the observer could see the firearm, it was concealed. People were arrested for open carrying because the cop could not see their gun. For practical purposes you needed a CCW permit to carry openly to avoid arrest.

Same with vehicles. The courts ruled in 1994 that unless the gun could be seen from outside the car, it was concealed. And everybody in the car had to have a permit if the gun was deemed accessible to the passengers. When I took my official DPS CCW Instructor course, the cops who taught it bragged about arresting passengers without permits.

Fred
 

FreeInAZ

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To clarify Fred, you are speaking of past rulings, that have since been nullified, or in some other form been revised so that (today), folks without a permit aren't getting hauled away to jail for carrying in a car without a permit. Correct?
 
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azcdlfred

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To clarify Fred, you are speaking of past rulings, that have since been nullified, or in some other form been revised so that (today), folks without a permit aren't getting hauled away to jail for carrying in a car without a permit. Correct?
Yes, these are past rulings that have been nullified by eliminating the requirement to have a permit in order to discreetly carry a firearm.

Those rulings are a prime example why one should not rely only on statute. At the time those rulings were in effect, the law stated that a gun was NOT concealed if the holster (not the gun) was "wholly or partially visible." All the self-styled legal experts, who didn't bother to keep up with the court cases, thought that as long as a tiny part of your holster peeked out from under your jacket you were home free and didn't need a permit. Reality was much different.

Fred
 
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