Video of police officer defending him self

[simmonsjoe]

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CommonMan101 wrote:

simmonsjoe wrote:

My uneducated guess is because he was alone? Felony stops are super dangerous right? Better to wait till you have backup to have contact. I almost commented the same thing until I thought about it for a bit.

One couldassume with equal sureness he wouldn't be ramming him because it was just a traffic stop that wouldn't stop.

Too bad we don't get to see any evidence pointing to why we should call this afelonious stop. It's a complete assumption to jump to that conclusion and call it that. So farall of theevidence says this is a "stop and obey me or I'll kill you" thing rather than a righteous shoot.

The fact thatthe officer described the first part as an attempt at ramming shows what cops do to justify escalating use ofviolence. He did not try to ram the squad car or an officerat any point in the video.

If I were on a jury about this and this video was all I had to go on theshooter(s) would be in deep doodoo. I've had harder things to call than this one in a jury room.

UMM, FLEEING THE POLICE? :banghead: Have you ever seen someone flee capture and they DIDN'T perform a felony stop??

 

[TheyWeRight]

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This looks like a completely unjustified use of deadly force to me. I see a person fleeing police, who may or may not have attempted to initiate an illegal stop. They do illegal stops all the time around here, various unconstitutional fishing expeditions and such. If that is the case for this fellow, and he just had enough of the "papers comrade" tactics, then I do have some sympathy for him and feel the cops should not have used deadly force.. Although he should have stopped and dealt with the Constitution trampling after the fact. I will say the driver seemedsomewhat safety mindedand non-aggressive, as others have said. This makes me doubt the use of deadly force as justified.

If this was a fellow was being persued for a crime, had warrants for violent crime, theft, etc. then good on the cops. Unless we know why and how the chase began, as well as what happened immediately prior to the shooting, it's difficult to make a judgemnet either way.

 

[OPS MARINE]

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Need more information? Try this. Here at 00:15 seconds, the Officer’s codes are activated. That’s 6 seconds before we hear that buzzing sound. The BG should reasonably know that the lights are for him, right? He’s attempting what looks like a seriously dangerous u-turn across the dubbleyella. There’s your PC for stop. He then pauses, and makes the INCORRECT decision to pass the Officer on the wrong side, in the wrong lane, and at what any Officer would consider an aggressive speed and manner. He clearly did not wish to stop for this Officer.

When the Officer puts out that he is Westbound on Cornell (code 3), this BG has 15 full seconds from 00:18:45 until 00:19:00 to stop or yield to an oncoming emergency vehicle. It is clear from the engine noise that the Officer has to travel at a high rate of speed to catch up to the BG.

Then, at 00:19:35, the BG feigns pulling over, only to make another illegal u-turn and turn down a side street to avoid making contact with the Officer. So what do we have now?

a) Improper turn
b) Failure to yield
c) Evading a Police Officer
d) Obstructing a Police Officer’s duties

At 00:20:23, Over the radio we hear the tone, and we can hear Dispatch calling for mutual aid for this Blue Ash unit in pursuit of a possibly stolen car. At the same time, the responsible Officer starts calling speed. We are at 100 mph passing Embassy.

e) Excessive Speed
f) Reckless driving

There is absolutely NO WAY this BG had any intent of compliance. The chase continues. Officers set up to join the pursuit, and can be seen on the opposite side of Reed Hartman Hwy. After being warned not to pull out due to excessive speed, they join the chase right after being passed.

Since the times are obscured at this point, the clock on the player reads 3min:17sec and an Officer says “I’m with the subject, I need cover!” From 3min:28sec to 3min:21sec, he’s directing another unit to “Stop and cover me!” then something unintelligible, and “Stop and cover him, be careful!” clearly fearing for the other Officers’ safety.

At 00:23:30 is where it gets really bad for the BG. Because he is off camera, we cannot see what he may have done to warrant this Officer getting off these initial 6 fast paced rounds, reholster and move.

At 00:23:40, as the unit apexes the corner, AFTER the initial 6 shots, we can see that the BG is still aggressively on the move, and we can hear the Officers yelling for him to “Stop moving!” “Don’t move!”

Keep in mind that we are hearing shots even before the Officer apexes the corner. I count two, which after the final 6 we see comes to eight (14 total, it seems). After watching it more closely this time to parse it, I can see that the Officer on the hood of the car is making an attempt to get to the driver to end this pursuit by taking him into physical custody. He does not have time to go all the way around the Monte Carlo, so he’s going to cross the hood. The BG is not having this, and begins to drive a 3,354lb bullet with a Cop on top.

g) Assault with a deadly weapon
h) Attempted vehicular homicide
i) Attempted murder on a Police Officer
Rightfully fearing for his life, the Officer has no choice but to stop the threat.

Why is it that anyone here has a problem with this? Can we not all pick this up from watching the video? Are the cops monsters? I think not.

 

[TheyWeRight]

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We still don't know the original reason for the cop trying to stop this guy. Was it a justified stop? And I'm talking probably cause, not the "reasonable suspicion" nonsense that can mean anything depending on the officer's mood, time of day, alignment of starts, etc...

I'd also be interested to know if this vehicle was in fact stolen, or if the driver had any warrants, etc.

I'd feel real bad for the fellow if he had a clean record, held a job, and otehrwise was a good upstanding citizen but made a poor judgement to evade the police for whatever reason.Though it's likely the guy had it coming to him for one reason or another, I'm hesitatnt to praise the police in their use of deadly forceuntil all the facts are known.

 

[tekshogun]

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It doesn't matter why the cop stopped someone. If they tell you to stop or they try to arrest you for any reason. DO NOT RESIST. Regardless of how many laws they may or may not be breaking you can end up injured, paralyzed for life, or dead. You don't have to consent to or say anything. Let them make mistakes when they make them, don't add to the muddled mess. Even if they do catch or arrest you, any action you took to resist them will only serve to help their case against you. SHUT UP! DO NOT RESIST!

AND FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, DO NOT CONTINUE TO DRIVE WITH AN OFFICER ON THE HOOD OF YOUR CAR! Unjustified my butt, if someone was driving with me on the hood and I told them stop, and they didn't stop, I would shoot them if I had the means. Cop or not, justified stop or not, the shooting was justified.

 

[OPS MARINE]

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tekshogun wrote: SNIP

Unjustified my butt, if someone was driving with me on the hood and I told them stop, and they didn't stop, I would shoot them if I had the means. Cop or not, justified stop or not, the shooting was justified.

Word.

 

[TheyWeRight]

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tekshogun wrote:

Cop or not, justified stop or not, the shooting was justified.

This is where we disagree. While any normal person would stop, justified stop or not, this fellow did not. We d not know if it wasa justified stop or not. If it was not... This cop placed himself on the hood of the Monte Carlo, he had the choice not to do so. It is extremely relevant whether the stop was probably cause or not. Everything that follows an illegal stop is pretty much irrelevant, the only thing relevant is that it was an illegal stop. Of course in this case we do not know this, one way or the other. Deadly force seems excessive and unjustified to me, until we know for sure it was a legal probably cause stop.

 

[tekshogun]

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TheyWeRight wrote:

tekshogun wrote:

Cop or not, justified stop or not, the shooting was justified.

This is where we disagree. While any normal person would stop, justified stop or not, this fellow did not. We d not know if it was a justified stop or not. If it was not... This cop placed himself on the hood of the Monte Carlo, he had the choice not to do so. It is extremely relevant whether the stop was probably cause or not. Everything that follows an illegal stop is pretty much irrelevant, the only thing relevant is that it was an illegal stop. Of course in this case we do not know this, one way or the other. Deadly force seems excessive and unjustified to me, until we know for sure it was a legal probably cause stop.

I know what you are trying to say. But the reason for the stop still has no relevance. As far as I know, in the United States of America, if law enforcement is pulling you over, you must do exactly that. Failure to do so is against the law and in many places, police either have prerogative or are required to give chase. Cops place themselves in dangerous positions everyday. That is their job, not necessarily to protect people, no, but to uphold the law. That means going after criminals.

Outside of that or any case of any legality of a stop, a cop on the hood of the car, after you've been told to stop means nothing except for you to cease and desist. Failure to so means that cop or another will probably shoot you.

That is the point.

A cop draws down on a person that may or may not be legally carrying a gun, and tells the person to put their hands up and the person instead takes their gun out and points it at the cop: Ok, we have an illegal detainment, the cop put himself/herself in that dangerous position. Now are you telling us, that since the cop may or may not have stopped or detained the person legally, they have lost their justification to defend themselves? So now they should just get shot? I know that isn't exactly what you are trying to say, but by your philosophy, that is how it can be taken and is why I believe the cop fired justifiably.

We're not talking about civil war or a revolution, it was a stop, for whatever reason, the person ran, the person and the vehicle became a danger......Comply or be shot. Simple as that.

 

[Tomahawk]

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tekshogun wrote:

Comply or be shot. Simple as that.

Yes, that's how it works. Might makes right.

 

[simmonsjoe]

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TheyWeRight wrote:

We still don't know the original reason for the cop trying to stop this guy. Was it a justified stop? And I'm talking probably cause, not the "reasonable suspicion" nonsense that can mean anything depending on the officer's mood, time of day, alignment of starts, etc...

I'd also be interested to know if this vehicle was in fact stolen, or if the driver had any warrants, etc.

I'd feel real bad for the fellow if he had a clean record, held a job, and otehrwise was a good upstanding citizen but made a poor judgement to evade the police for whatever reason.Though it's likely the guy had it coming to him for one reason or another, I'm hesitatnt to praise the police in their use of deadly forceuntil all the facts are known.

Just ignore all this dudes comments he is off his balls.

 

[Capn Camo]

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That part of Blue Ash at 00:15, Im shocked there was no traffic. Thats between Sharonville and Montgomery. Reed Hartman is rarely empty.

The first problemis that the car DID NOT try to RAM the cruiser. The driver carefully steered AROUND the cruiser. The car had a straight shot at running into the side of the cruiser and deliberately went AROUND it.

In fact, if youll watch the video carefully, its the OTHER WAY AROUND. The PD tried to ram the car.

This starts in Sycamore Twp and goes to Blue Ash (Reed Hartman), so if a Blue Ash PD is there, theres a whole lot more to the story. Sycamore was the Sherriffs territory last time I lived there.

Whatever happened to arrest, detain, debrief and TRY a criminal?

When does speeding warrent EXECUTION?

I realize that lots of posters here try to justify the PDs actions by listing a long list of "what the perp did wrong" but go to ORC and tell us which of those warrant an immediate HIGHWAY EXECUTION.

I call BS.

 

[simmonsjoe]

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Capn Camo wrote:

That part of Blue Ash at 00:15, Im shocked there was no traffic. Thats between Sharonville and Montgomery. Reed Hartman is rarely empty.

The first problemis that the car DID NOT try to RAM the cruiser. The driver carefully steered AROUND the cruiser. The car had a straight shot at running into the side of the cruiser and deliberately went AROUND it.

In fact, if youll watch the video carefully, its the OTHER WAY AROUND. The PD tried to ram the car.

This starts in Sycamore Twp and goes to Blue Ash (Reed Hartman), so if a Blue Ash PD is there, theres a whole lot more to the story. Sycamore was the Sherriffs territory last time I lived there.

Whatever happened to arrest, detain, debrief and TRY a criminal?

When does speeding warrent EXECUTION?

I realize that lots of posters here try to justify the PDs actions by listing a long list of "what the perp did wrong" but go to ORC and tell us which of those warrant an immediate HIGHWAY EXECUTION.

I call BS.

Off his balls.

 

[CommonMan101]

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Those offenses cited were created by the officer's presence and actions. We are stillleft to assume a lot. What if the chase never happened? Would he be worthy ofshooting then? We never saw WHY he was being chased in the first place. That's all I'm asking for. We never saw if he had a gun and as far as the car...- if the cop wasn't chasing him all over then he would not be in danger!

If this was all I was shown in acourt room I would vote to convict the officer. I was not shown why it was justified to chase him in the first place. Show me the original reason he was chased. Until then it's in the air. It's highly dangerous grounds to assume everything a cop does is justified - just because he's a cop! I love them and want them around but there are dumbazzez that wear blue too! They're human and make humanly bad judgements too. For all we know this guy was boinking the officer's wife and he just executed him. Let's get all the facts before we jump on the "YAY! He shot a BG" bandwagon. I'll jump on it when I see the why he was worthy of being shot before the chase.

 

[vegasche1023]

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if the guy wasn't stopping then there is reason to suspect that he committed a crime and in most states a cop can kill a suspect who committed a felony(even if it's not self defense), if he has reason to believe that the public would be in danger if he gets away. I don't think the cop should have jumped on the hood but if I was in his shoes ordering the driver to exit the vehicle and he tried to drive off, I sure as hell would unload my entire mag into that dirt bag. I hate when ppl defend criminals, over cops.

 

[Carnivore]

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END OF STORY ??

 

[Ian]

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I don't think there really is anything to say to that but just "WOW."

 

[CommonMan101]

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vegasche1023 wrote:

if the guy wasn't stopping then there is reason to suspect that he committed a crime and in most states a cop can kill a suspect who committed a felony(even if it's not self defense), if he has reason to believe that the public would be in danger if he gets away. I don't think the cop should have jumped on the hood but if I was in his shoes ordering the driver to exit the vehicle and he tried to drive off, I sure as hell would unload my entire mag into that dirt bag. I hate when ppl defend criminals, over cops.

I hate it when people defend criminals over cops too!

I alsohate it when people assume the cop is right no matter what - just because the cop is involved.

I was not defending him I was calling what I saw and asking for more info. Apparantly you need no proof for cops to shoot people.

Looking at the words you chose to useyour subconcious agrees we don't really have all the facts, yet you are convinced he is guilty of felony when the chase began. You couldn't write that post without admitting you are assuming things.


The question is... Was he a felony criminal before the cop was introduced into the scenario or did he become a felony criminal because the cop was intruduced?

It very well could be I'd pull the trigger on that guy too. I just haven't seen why it all turned into "Stop or I'll kill you" thing. WHAT"S THE REAL STORY? I'm just asking for what made him a felony stop in the first place.

What if it really turned out that the guy was a love rival and the cop found a way to get rid of him in an - apparantlyto you- "acceptable-to-the-public" way. What would you say if he was running because he knew the cop was wanting to kill him in the first place for some other personal reason?Where do you run to for help then? Looks the same from a dash camwith no testimony from a conveniently dead perp.

Or is this just an excersise where you don't even want to consider any otherpossibilities of what the truth may may actually be? Are youbeing the monkey with the hands over the ears or the one with the hands over the eyes?

So in your world cops are to be considered perfect and shouldn't ever be questioned? Dangerous world ya got there. I'll pass on that one. I happen to prefer Rule-of-Law.

 

[vegasche1023]

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I agree with wanting to know what he originally did. As far as the lover thing(cop wanting to kill him), that is extremely far fetched. Even if that was the case the "suspect" could have called 911 or driven to PD station and explained what had happened. Regardless of the original reason to chase him, once the cop jumped on hood and the "suspect" DECIDED to try and drive off(that right the is felony assault on a peace officer or even attempted murder, which is also a felony).

"The question is... Was he a felony criminal before the cop was introduced into the scenario or did he become a felony criminal because the cop was intruduced?"

No cop, under any circumstances could CAUSE me to become a felon. I HATE cops but I'll defend them when they are right.

 

[okboomer]

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Yeah, where he turned around was only a few blocks away from the Blue Ash PD ... but he turned around (how did he end up in the barditch anyway?) and fled the other way, towards a highway ... looked like he was headed for Reed Hartman or the Kenwood ramp to 71.

You all also should remember that this was in a suburb of Cincinnati ... lots of drugs and BAD GUYS roam around all over. When I was there during the late 1980's coccaine was the drug of choice and there was A LOT of it in Cincinnat. I can just imagine how it is with something as damaging and destructive as Meth or Ice.

I am not defending the actions seen in the video, but it is not a far stretch of the imagination for me to come up with several scenarios which could have led to the use of deadly force.

1. PD may very well have followed the vehicle from a known drug house.

2. Other municipality may have followed the vehicle from a known drug house and the BAPD could have 'picked him up' as he crossed into that municipality.

3. BAPD had simply run the tag on a vehicle moving through his jurisdiction in the middle of a boring shift and found outstanding warrants for the owner with 'armed and dangerous' attached. (And when they say 'A & D' in Cincinnati, they mean it!

The guy ran from the PD for some reason and in my experience (not LEO, but a bondsman) he had some reason to fear contact with LEO ... and that fear is only *reasonable* if he had outstanding warrants or was carrying *felony weight.*

 

[skiingislife725]

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If case you haven't googled it already, here's the story with more detail then what the video is showing.

http://www.officer.com/web/online/Top-News-Stories/Two-Ohio-Officers-Injured-in-Fatal-Chase--Shooting/1$37606

-history of drug trafficking...although probably irrelevant at the time, but probably explains why he was fleeing

-and at the time of the chase:

"Neighbor Daryl Black, 28, said he'd gotten a ride to Walgreen's with Bennett, who he said "went crazy" when police turned on their lights. "I'm screaming at him, ‘Get me out of this car -- you're going to cost me my life,'" Black said.
The man said he tried to wrest the steering wheel from Bennett, who Black said punched him in the face during the struggle"