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Unlawfully Detained while Voting and Banned from all GRPS Schools

griffin

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Joined
Aug 16, 2011
Messages
871
Location
Okemos, MI
Too bad the original thread was closed. I don't understand why people kept saying the authorities were going to be in trouble for arresting him going to or from a polling place. No one ever arrested the guy. He voluntarily went along with some code enforcement guy. :banghead:

ETA: also, where are the story comments people keep talking about? I didn't see any and only saw a place to send a private comment to the TV station, which I did.
 
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CrimsonSoul

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Can you really blame the school? I mean what if a student had seen the firearm and realized that hey people have rights in America. Please, think of the children! /sarcasm
 

griffin

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Messages
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Location
Okemos, MI
Some of the laws we are looking at don't require an arrest.
I fully agree with your statement, but that is not what I am questioning, or what some people were railing about in the original thread.

I do find it ironic, though, that because he DID voluntarily go along and wait for the LEOs that all these other issues have now arisen that wouldn't have if he had simply told the guy to get lost. It will be interesting.
 

griffin

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Aug 16, 2011
Messages
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Location
Okemos, MI
With a Michigan CPL, a person can Open Carry at a School in Michigan.
I am unclear on why, according to law, you must have a CPL to OC at a school. I see nothing in MCL 28.425o stating that. MCL 750.234d doesn't come into play because MCL 750.234d doesn't mention schools, only the other PFZs.

What am I missing?
 

Bronson

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Jul 14, 2008
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2,126
Location
Battle Creek, Michigan, USA
Too bad the original thread was closed. I don't understand why people kept saying the authorities were going to be in trouble for arresting him going to or from a polling place. No one ever arrested the guy. He voluntarily went along with some code enforcement guy.

You're mixing up the details from at least two separate incidents.

Bronson
 

PDinDetroit

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Joined
Jun 20, 2009
Messages
2,328
Location
SE, Michigan, USA
I am unclear on why, according to law, you must have a CPL to OC at a school. I see nothing in MCL 28.425o stating that. MCL 750.234d doesn't come into play because MCL 750.234d doesn't mention schools, only the other PFZs.

What am I missing?

Sorry, should have posted this earlier, have been having incredibly bad headaches for 6 months now and yesterday/today is pretty bad (Mostly associated with Barometric Pressure Events).

To follow up on stainless1911's post...

MCL 750.237a said:
Individuals engaging in proscribed conduct; violation; penalties; definitions.

Sec. 237a.

(1) An individual who engages in conduct proscribed under section 224, 224a, 224b, 224c, 224e, 226, 227, 227a, 227f, 234a, 234b, or 234c, or who engages in conduct proscribed under section 223(2) for a second or subsequent time, in a weapon free school zone is guilty of a felony punishable by 1 or more of the following:

(a) Imprisonment for not more than the maximum term of imprisonment authorized for the section violated.

(b) Community service for not more than 150 hours.

(c) A fine of not more than 3 times the maximum fine authorized for the section violated.

(2) An individual who engages in conduct proscribed under section 223(1), 224d, 226a, 227c, 227d, 231c, 232a(1) or (4), 233, 234, 234e, 234f, 235, 236, or 237, or who engages in conduct proscribed under section 223(2) for the first time, in a weapon free school zone is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by 1 or more of the following:

(a) Imprisonment for not more than the maximum term of imprisonment authorized for the section violated or 93 days, whichever is greater.

(b) Community service for not more than 100 hours.

(c) A fine of not more than $2,000.00 or the maximum fine authorized for the section violated, whichever is greater.

(3) Subsections (1) and (2) do not apply to conduct proscribed under a section enumerated in those subsections to the extent that the proscribed conduct is otherwise exempted or authorized under this chapter.

(4) Except as provided in subsection (5), an individual who possesses a weapon in a weapon free school zone is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by 1 or more of the following:

(a) Imprisonment for not more than 93 days.

(b) Community service for not more than 100 hours.

(c) A fine of not more than $2,000.00.

(5) Subsection (4) does not apply to any of the following:


(a) An individual employed by or contracted by a school if the possession of that weapon is to provide security services for the school.

(b) A peace officer.

(c) An individual licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.

(d) An individual who possesses a weapon provided by a school or a school's instructor on school property for purposes of providing or receiving instruction in the use of that weapon.

(e) An individual who possesses a firearm on school property if that possession is with the permission of the school's principal or an agent of the school designated by the school's principal or the school board.

(f) An individual who is 18 years of age or older who is not a student at the school and who possesses a firearm on school property while transporting a student to or from the school if any of the following apply:

(i) The individual is carrying an antique firearm, completely unloaded, in a wrapper or container in the trunk of a vehicle while en route to or from a hunting or target shooting area or function involving the exhibition, demonstration or sale of antique firearms.

(ii) The individual is carrying a firearm unloaded in a wrapper or container in the trunk of the person's vehicle, while in possession of a valid Michigan hunting license or proof of valid membership in an organization having shooting range facilities, and while en route to or from a hunting or target shooting area.

(iii) The person is carrying a firearm unloaded in a wrapper or container in the trunk of the person's vehicle from the place of purchase to his or her home or place of business or to a place of repair or back to his or her home or place of business, or in moving goods from one place of abode or business to another place of abode or business.

(iv) The person is carrying an unloaded firearm in the passenger compartment of a vehicle that does not have a trunk, if the person is otherwise complying with the requirements of subparagraph (ii) or (iii) and the wrapper or container is not readily accessible to the occupants of the vehicle.

(6) As used in this section:

(a) “Antique firearm” means either of the following:

(i) A firearm not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898, including a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or a replica of such a firearm, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898.

(ii) A firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

(b) “School” means a public, private, denominational, or parochial school offering developmental kindergarten, kindergarten, or any grade from 1 through 12.

(c) “School property” means a building, playing field, or property used for school purposes to impart instruction to children or used for functions and events sponsored by a school, except a building used primarily for adult education or college extension courses.

(d) “Weapon free school zone” means school property and a vehicle used by a school to transport students to or from school property.

http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-750-237a
 

lil_freak_66

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2008
Messages
1,799
Location
Mason, Michigan
on the news stories(see on facebook the WZZM and Wood tv pages) it really bothers me at how many people are pretty much saying they dont care what the law says, the guy should be charged....then again it warms me to see how many already know its legal, and how many say that if it is legal they have no issue with it.

what bothers me the most(and apparently alot of they're viewers, even the ones saying he should be charged) is WZZM saying the man is being charged in the headlines, but in the story saying it is only a possibility, criticizing wzzm for instigating and knowingly reporting false information
 
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HKcarrier

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 9, 2011
Messages
816
Location
michigan
I fully agree with your statement, but that is not what I am questioning, or what some people were railing about in the original thread.

I do find it ironic, though, that because he DID voluntarily go along and wait for the LEOs that all these other issues have now arisen that wouldn't have if he had simply told the guy to get lost. It will be interesting.



Agreed... I would have told Mr. code enforcement or school official to have a nice day, cya later....
 

stainless1911

Banned
Joined
Dec 19, 2009
Messages
8,855
Location
Davisburg, Michigan, United States
Email positive response and reply


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Thanks for your message, Neil. I greatly appreciate you reaching out and sharing your concerns. First let me say, that I personally and we as a district respect and value the 2nd Amendment Rights of all individuals. Second, the media doesn't always capture or fully report what was part of the complete interview. In my comments, I referenced the CCW law as well as the State School Code. I did not say they are legal gun-free zones. I noted that the CCW has an exception for schools and other properties. I also noted that the School Code references no weapons on school property. I could not comment on the open carry as that is not an area I am familiar with; we deferred to the Kent County Clerk and law enforcement agencies to address whether or not the individual in question was in full compliance with the law. Ultimately, Neil, this is for the Grand Rapids Police Department and the Kent County Prosecutors office to determine.

As I hope you can understand and appreciate, there are many individuals who do not fully understand the law, among them our students, parents, and teachers. This is why there was a lot of uncomfortable reaction from individuals in the building when they saw the gentleman with the gun. I have already spoken with our public safety direction and we are discussing how we can better inform our staff and parents and post signs that provide clarity.

I appreciate you clarifying this issue around open carry and we will make sure to inform the media of this correction. Thanks again for taking the time to share your concerns. We can only be strong and better with the help and feedback from concerned citizens like you. Much appreciated!

My Response



cleardot.gif

Thanks for your honest response. I write these things often, and sometimes people can be pretty ignorant and rude.

As far as people not understanding this, pardon me for saying, but most of this problem lies with the schools themselves. You see, the students, and the parents, who were once students themselves, are supposed to have been taught about our countries history, and our second amendment right to both keep and to bear arms. Education, in my opinion, is the best, and simplest way to correct these misconceptions.
 
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stainless1911

Banned
Joined
Dec 19, 2009
Messages
8,855
Location
Davisburg, Michigan, United States
Email Response and reply

Thanks Neil. I agree, the best we can do is educate ourselves. I did receive an email from a gentleman who is with some statewide group on Open Carry and asked him to provide some thoughts and suggestions about communications. If you have any ideas or resources we should utilize, please let me know. Trust me, I/we can relate with issues of misconceptions or misperceptions. I certainly apologize if our comments in any way fed into that and we will be more sensitive from here on out.

Reply

The best resource in my experience is to request the assistance of the people at http://www.miopencarry.org/ , they specialize it teaching and training people, including law enforcement about the gun laws in this state. Tell them who you are, they are already aware of the incident, let them know that you and/or your staff would be interested in meeting with them, and I'm sure that they would welcome the opportunity with open arms.

I could explain Michigans gun laws in detail on the subject here in this communication, but they can be confusing, so I think it would be better to discuss them instead. The short answer is, that the laws that cover people licensed to conceal, only deal with concealment, while the laws that deal with possession on school grounds exempt people licensed in the state to carry concealed.

We hope to hear from you soon, and the folks at Michigan Open Carry will be more than happy to assist you further.
 

TheQ

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Joined
Aug 2, 2010
Messages
3,379
Location
Lansing, Michigan
As to Preemption (MCL 123.1102), since the schools are either part of the City or the County, a case could be made that they are under Preemption and would not be able to ban Firearms. Even if they are a School District formed by multiple Cities or a City and County, then MCL 124.504 comes into play:



http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-Act-7-of-1967-Ex-Sess-

Since Neither the City nor the County has the Power to Ban Firearms due to MCL 123.1102, then any resulting "joint exercise of powers" like a School District could not either.

Not saying that they might not try to ban Firearms though... Since Firearms are allowed in Vehicles and in Parking Lots for CPL Holders due to MCL 28.425o, I believe any School District Firearm Ban would not stand a Legal Challenge. The School District, School District Officials, School Officials, and Police Officers would then open themselves up for Misdemeanor Prosecution at a minimum under MCL 752.11

Unlike CADL, CATA, et. al. schools are NOT "Authorities". A school district (unlike an "Authority") gets its charter directly from the state.

Therefore I think your argument about Authorities (which I agree with) may not apply
 

xmanhockey7

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Joined
Jun 15, 2010
Messages
1,195
Thats what Im concerned about as well. However, aren't they run by the locals? They are even named after their locations, ie waterford schools, pontiac schools and so on.

I don't know how the rest of the state does it but I believe where I am from the public schools receive money from the state and the city. Portage raised local taxes to fund a brand new HS for Central and renovations/additions to Portage Northern. I do believe the schools while they must follow certain state guidelines and laws are very much controlled by the city and school board of course.
 

TheQ

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Lansing, Michigan
I don't know how the rest of the state does it but I believe where I am from the public schools receive money from the state and the city. Portage raised local taxes to fund a brand new HS for Central and renovations/additions to Portage Northern. I do believe the schools while they must follow certain state guidelines and laws are very much controlled by the city and school board of course.

They receive money from the state, but not always the city. They are funded by local tax millages (that they initiate), but the funding goes directly to them, not via the city.
 
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