Tugging on a holstered handgun ain't funny, y'all

[skidmark]

I actually bothered to catch up on all the posts since I last posted. Pretty much a peeing contest with no flat rock to use as an aiming point, but there was one question raised that I might be able to shed some understanding on - the use of a weak-side knife against a gun grab.

The way I was taught is that my strong hand goes to attempting to secure the handgun in the holster while the weak hand nife is used to cut the grabber off/away from the gun. No stabbing in the chest, no slashing of the throat ot hamstrings. Slashing across the back of the hand grabbing for the gun, or the back of the arm that is attached to the hand tryting to make the grab. It is an attempt to make the grabbing hand/arm inoperable, not to inflict lethal wounds. (Although there are a few arteries and veins that can cause some significant bleeding, but the chances of intentionally severing them is pretty low.)

If you can rub your tummy with one hand while patting your head with the other you should be able to learn the basics of the process. If you can rub and pat while walking you should be able to do this without having to stop holding on to the gun in order think about cutting away the grabbing hand.

stay safe.

 

[Medic1210]

I actually bothered to catch up on all the posts since I last posted. Pretty much a peeing contest with no flat rock to use as an aiming point, but there was one question raised that I might be able to shed some understanding on - the use of a weak-side knife against a gun grab.

The way I was taught is that my strong hand goes to attempting to secure the handgun in the holster while the weak hand nife is used to cut the grabber off/away from the gun. No stabbing in the chest, no slashing of the throat ot hamstrings. Slashing across the back of the hand grabbing for the gun, or the back of the arm that is attached to the hand tryting to make the grab. It is an attempt to make the grabbing hand/arm inoperable, not to inflict lethal wounds. (Although there are a few arteries and veins that can cause some significant bleeding, but the chances of intentionally severing them is pretty low.)

If you can rub your tummy with one hand while patting your head with the other you should be able to learn the basics of the process. If you can rub and pat while walking you should be able to do this without having to stop holding on to the gun in order think about cutting away the grabbing hand.

stay safe.

So you suggest immediately drawing a knife at the first feel of a tug on your sidearm? What about a gun?

You say you were trained to slash across the back of the hand that is grabbing for your weapon. How do you do this when that hand should be pinned under your strong side elbow or arm? I know you said "or the arm the hand is attached to" but your initial statement, indicating your primary target would be the hand. Just wondered how that was supposed to work

Lastly, a quick anatomy lesson. The muscles on the back of the hand and back of the forearm are used to open the hand and flex it dorsally (rearward). While a slash to those muscles would probably cause most people to instinctively let go, it would not render the hand's grip ineffective on a determined attacker. The muscles used to grip are on the palm side of the forearm. Also, the two main arteries that run to the hand also run along the palmar side too, so yes, the chances of severing them from the back side is quite slim.

 

[Logan 5]

About fifteen minutes ago, some coworkers walked into the fast food restaurant I was enjoying. While chatting with them, one of them thought it would be funny to tug on my holstered handgun.
Elbow clamped it down and weak side knife came out and between us, chest level. "Take your (expletive) hand off the gun."
I'm glad he listened. Hate for someone to get hurt just for being stupid.
... Still shaking, though.

You might want to look into how you present yourself. It seems, considering your recent post history, that you have had far more conflict with people and your handgun than I bet most people have in a 5 year period.

 

[nemo]

I carry a TDI http://www.kabar.com/knives/detail/76 carried weak-side.

Skid,

I carry the same blade in my weak-side pocket. I would prefer to carry it on my belt, but the sheath that comes with that blade does not fit my belt.

Do you carry the blade on your belt? Did you get a different sheath or do you wear a different belt, i.e., one that fits the sheath?

TIA,
Nemo

 

[skidmark]

So you suggest immediately drawing a knife at the first feel of a tug on your sidearm? What about a gun?

You say you were trained to slash across the back of the hand that is grabbing for your weapon. How do you do this when that hand should be pinned under your strong side elbow or arm? I know you said "or the arm the hand is attached to" but your initial statement, indicating your primary target would be the hand. Just wondered how that was supposed to work

Lastly, a quick anatomy lesson. The muscles on the back of the hand and back of the forearm are used to open the hand and flex it dorsally (rearward). While a slash to those muscles would probably cause most people to instinctively let go, it would not render the hand's grip ineffective on a determined attacker. The muscles used to grip are on the palm side of the forearm. Also, the two main arteries that run to the hand also run along the palmar side too, so yes, the chances of severing them from the back side is quite slim.

Very often grabbing the hand is more difficult than grabbing the arm. But the goal of grabbing either is the same - to restrict upward movement thus retaining possession of the handgun.

Have you ever fired a handgun at/into someone you are grappling with? Could you maintain muzzle contact so as to avoid muzzle blast and to ensure the bullet went into them? Bottom-feeders go out of battery when you get good muzzle contact.

Have you ever been cut? Have you ever been cut on the hand while trying to grab/hold onto something? And should I have mentioned that I do not maintain a razor-sharp edge on that knife? Can you guess why? (Yes, it is quite sharp enough to cut you, my very rare steak, and across corrogated cardboard, but none of those cuts are neat and clean.) Cutting is not so much for forcing the hand open as it is for forcing the hand - via the mind's pain center - to stop gripping.

This is not some kata done while everybody stands still. It is a very dynamic maneuver that probably will also involve slashing you in many other places as well. If there is an opening I might also take a try at the corotid or subclavian artery but more likely the target will be the eye - because it's likely I will be twisting as this takes place.

Gun grabs are very serious. Countering them requires a response even more serious.

stay safe.

 

[skidmark]

Skid,

I carry the same blade in my weak-side pocket. I would prefer to carry it on my belt, but the sheath that comes with that blade does not fit my belt.

Do you carry the blade on your belt? Did you get a different sheath or do you wear a different belt, i.e., one that fits the sheath?

TIA,
Nemo

You are referring to the TDI, right? Because the HAK has several attachment options that can make fitting your belt easier.

Amazingly, the TDI sheath was the same width as my belt. If your belt is not wide enough, you can try gluing some shims into the top of the opening to get a better fit. If your belt is too wide you are probably SOL.

stay safe

 

[Medic1210]

Very often grabbing the hand is more difficult than grabbing the arm. But the goal of grabbing either is the same - to restrict upward movement thus retaining possession of the handgun.

Not what I asked. I was talking about the act of grabbing a knife with your presumably non-dominant, weak side hand, and then bringing that blade across your body with the intent of cutting their hand. Heck, I can barely bring the blade of a reverse gripped knife in my left hand over far enough to reach where I keep my pistol on my right side. Think I need to stretch more?:uhoh:

Have you ever fired a handgun at/into someone you are grappling with?

Heck yeah, all the time. Hasn't everyone?

Could you maintain muzzle contact so as to avoid muzzle blast and to ensure the bullet went into them? Bottom-feeders go out of battery when you get good muzzle contact.

Did you watch any of the Zimmerman trial? Do you not remember how much the prosecution, as well as every media outlet and race baiter in the country, tried to claim George pressed the muzzle against Trayvon when he fired? They tried saying that was proof he wanted to kill him. Described it as an execution style shot. Fortunately for George that wasn't the case, and that the Medical Examiner clearly testified it was not a contact shot, but actually a shot from at least 8 inches away? Can you imagine how it might have helped the prosecution had he actually pressed the muzzle against Trayvon?

So to answer, if I can help it, I will try my best to ensure the muzzle is not pressed against anyone when fired. The next time I shoot someone of course...

Have you ever been cut? Have you ever been cut on the hand while trying to grab/hold onto something?

I cut my knuckle carving a stick one time, does that count?

And should I have mentioned that I do not maintain a razor-sharp edge on that knife? Can you guess why?

Because you aren't real good at sharpening?

If there is an opening I might also take a try at the corotid or subclavian artery but more likely the target will be the eye - because it's likely I will be twisting as this takes place.

If there was an opening, wouldn't it be a better choice to just use the gun on your side instead of risking slashing yourself multiple times? Certainly the person would have let go by then right? Especially considering the tactical decision of maintaining a less than razor sharp, but still sharp enough to cut edge? Everyone knows those hurt much worse than a razor sharp edge. I once cut a guy's head off with my razor sharp edge, and he said he didn't even feel it because my edge was so sharp.

Also, I know it sounds commando ninja badass to say you'd target things like the subclavian or carotid artery, but you should probably try hitting a more accessible target. An interesting fact about the human body is, it is actually laid out in a manner that protects the vital organs and structures. You see, the subclavian artery, as the name suggests, runs horizontally behind and slightly below the clavicle. Your chances of slicing that is minimal. A stab downward and slightly rearward from above the clavicle would be a better choice if you want to alter your training. Unless that is what you were implying you would do of course... Kinda the same thing for the carotid artery too. Many folks think it's right below the skin, because, well, you can feel it pulsating and all... Fact is, you'd have to slash through quite a bit of muscle to hit it, so you may wanna reconsider that razor edge thing.

Reality is, slashing with the intent of causing pain and make the person rethink their desire to continue their pursuit is ok, but it is highly inefficient if you're trying to hit vital organs. Stab wounds are much more effective. Of course this comes from my experience not in dealing out these wounds, but rather my experience treating patients that have received these types of wounds.

Gun grabs are very serious. Countering them requires a response even more serious.

You're right. Looking back I don't know what I was thinking suggesting the OP overreacted. I probably would have cut the offending tugger. A lot. You gotta teach people they don't tug on another man's gun. Wait... I think I may be thinking of something else...

 

[skidmark]

Medic1210 -

There is no point in our "discussing" this any further. We will probably be lucky if we agree to disagree.

Everybody else - practice how tro retain your handgun if someone tries to take it from your holster. If you need to, seek out training. And remember the rules: there are none except to be the last one standing if it comes down to that. (In all other cases, it is better to come away with no more holes than you had when you woke up.)

stay safe.

 

[nemo]

You are referring to the TDI, right? Because the HAK has several attachment options that can make fitting your belt easier.

Amazingly, the TDI sheath was the same width as my belt. If your belt is not wide enough, you can try gluing some shims into the top of the opening to get a better fit. If your belt is too wide you are probably SOL.

stay safe

Yes; indeedy: I am refering to the TDI. The sheath that came with it seems to be designed for one of those thin wide web (~ 1.5") instructor's belts. The gun belt that I have been wearing these past ~20 years is thicker (not the thickest gun belt available, but easily twice as thick as the slot in the TDI sheath would allow) and not as wide (~ 1.25 "). I could widen the slot with a dremel, but I can see how easy (and fast!) it would be to make those slots WAY too big. Given that I see far more thick leather gun belts on others who carry, such as the one that I wear, rather than those thin instructor-type belts, I figured that I could not be the only one who fails to thread a too-thick belt through a too-thin sheath slot.

By the way, do you wear the knife close to your hip? the handle would seem to dig in to either the leg or the gut, when placed near the buckle. But I alread wear a flashlight and multi-tool on the weak side, so I would have to do some rearranging. Anyhoo, I ended up just sticking the knife in my pocket, where it is just a little slower to draw than from the belt.

What is the HAK? If that is something from the same website as the TDI, then I will see whether it is a better match as a sheath.