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This Days Inn deserves to be congratulated for allowing an employee to carry!

thebigsd

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Messages
3,540
Location
Quarryville, PA
Glad that she is safe and that she was able to defend herself. A bigger caliber might have been better but what she had worked.
 

malignity

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 9, 2008
Messages
1,101
Location
Warren, Michigan, USA
.22's are dangerous rounds and very under appreciated in a lot of respects. It's not the first choice I'd carry, but I'd much rather grab a .22 than say, a baseball bat.

I worked in the ER of St. John Main (Moross and Mack in Detroit) for almost 3 years. We got gunshot wound victims on nearly a daily basis. Only two were ever shot with 22's when I was there but both died. One was shot in the eye, and it ricocheted off the back of his skull and swiss cheesed his brain. The other was shot in the collar bone, and it bounced off his collar bone, went through his lung, aorta, liver, kidney, and exited out near his buttock on the opposite side of his body.

Again, not my first choice of carry, but if it's all I had, you better believe it's got the potential to get the job done.
 

DrTodd

Michigan Moderator
Joined
Jun 20, 2008
Messages
3,337
Location
Hudsonville , Michigan, USA
.22's are dangerous rounds and very under appreciated in a lot of respects. It's not the first choice I'd carry, but I'd much rather grab a .22 than say, a baseball bat.

I worked in the ER of St. John Main (Moross and Mack in Detroit) for almost 3 years. We got gunshot wound victims on nearly a daily basis. Only two were ever shot with 22's when I was there but both died. One was shot in the eye, and it ricocheted off the back of his skull and swiss cheesed his brain. The other was shot in the collar bone, and it bounced off his collar bone, went through his lung, aorta, liver, kidney, and exited out near his buttock on the opposite side of his body.

Again, not my first choice of carry, but if it's all I had, you better believe it's got the potential to get the job done.
I carry a naa 22mag as backup and it works for me. I have no issue with the .22, just if there was no question that my employer allowed me to carry, I'd carry my .40... which for some here is still too small of a caliber. ;)
BTW Although people can and do die from a .22, there often is a large amount of time between being shot and dying. LOL
 
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RabbiVJ

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Nov 22, 2009
Messages
212
Location
ATL via DTW
.22's are dangerous rounds and very under appreciated in a lot of respects. It's not the first choice I'd carry, but I'd much rather grab a .22 than say, a baseball bat.

I worked in the ER of St. John Main (Moross and Mack in Detroit) for almost 3 years. We got gunshot wound victims on nearly a daily basis. Only two were ever shot with 22's when I was there but both died. One was shot in the eye, and it ricocheted off the back of his skull and swiss cheesed his brain. The other was shot in the collar bone, and it bounced off his collar bone, went through his lung, aorta, liver, kidney, and exited out near his buttock on the opposite side of his body.

Again, not my first choice of carry, but if it's all I had, you better believe it's got the potential to get the job done.
.22s are no joke...when I went to lansing last year to MPE to get my Gen 3 G23, the guy that was helping me was carrying a walther p22. He was saying that they will go thru body armor...tho as much i wanted to believe him...it could be possible due to the high velocity...
 

wolverine1856

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 19, 2008
Messages
87
Location
Oakland County, Michigan, USA
It's too bad she had to be victimized once before the employer allowed her to carry on the job.


"This victim received permission from her employer to carry on the job after being “victimized in one of two recent robberies at the same Days Inn.”
 

autosurgeon

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 29, 2008
Messages
3,844
Location
Lawrence, Michigan, United States
.22s are no joke...when I went to lansing last year to MPE to get my Gen 3 G23, the guy that was helping me was carrying a walther p22. He was saying that they will go thru body armor...tho as much i wanted to believe him...it could be possible due to the high velocity...
It has more to do with the small diam. Without plates some kevlar weaves cannot stop small projectiles.
 

Michigander

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
4,836
Location
Mulligan's Valley
The problem with snubbie .22's and Baby Brownings is not the width of the round, it's the weight and the relatively slow speed. A while back I spent a ridiculous amount of time researching the smallest size you could go and still reasonably hope to have a chance at incapacitating an attacker with good shot placement, and what I found is that when you go lower than .32 ACP in a stubbie barreled hide out gun, or when you load a short barreled .32 with expanding rounds, you immediately run the risk of not penetrating a human skull, instead leaving yourself with essentially neck shots as the only reliable option for fairly rapid incapacitation.

The context in which .22 and .25 become formidable self defense rounds is when you have a longer barrel and get twice the velocity. When you cut that velocity in half or so, you very quickly loose sufficient penetration capabilities. And let's face it, if you can get away with a longer barrel you shouldn't be carrying a caliber under .30. You realistically want nothing less than 70 grains and ball ammo at velocities under 1000 fps in calibers smaller than .35.

Guns in the Seecamp family, as well as double barrel derringers, easily outdo the performance of the .22/.25's with very nearly no loss in concealability. These are my suggestion to folks seeking an "I'm not carrying" gun with concealability taking importance over capacity and power.
 
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Michigander

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
4,836
Location
Mulligan's Valley
I didn't mean it in that way. I was responding to the OP when he said he would carry a larger caliber. Like I said, the .22 worked.

The important thing to keep in mind, which the story badly neglected, is how quickly did he die? Says she shot him in the chest. Unless by strange luck she clipped his spine, I would be very surprised if he didn't have time and ability to kill her if he'd devoted his last dying breaths to killing her.

For a defender, there is a very extremely important difference between incapacitating an attacker instantly, and killing an attacker, but only after 2 hours of surgery fail to save his life after he gets shot.
 

Michigander

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
4,836
Location
Mulligan's Valley
The ear canal shot would work, but an easier and just as combat effective option is to clap a persons ears with your bare hands. This will mess someone up very dramatically.

About the ammo, Silvertips are a low velocity HP round, well known today mostly because it was the only HP round when the Seecamp was developed, and continues to this day to be among the suggested ammo for Seecamps (stupid, if you ask me), though the Silvertips design has been changed since the 80's and Seecamp now often suggests Gold Dots as the superior round. The Silvertips may work, but if they expand much they may not. Again, you very desperately need penetration if you are carrying a .32, and ball ammo is the way to go. Euro FMJ's and Buffalo Bore are probably about as good as it gets for commercial .32 carry ammo.

That's not to say that with a 4" or longer barrel that .32 HP's wouldn't work respectably, but again, at that point it'd be time to carry a better caliber.
 
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smellslikemichigan

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jun 16, 2008
Messages
2,321
Location
Troy, Michigan, USA
The ear canal shot would work, but an easier and just as combat effective option is to clap a persons ears with your bare hands. This will mess someone up very dramatically.

About the ammo, Silvertips are a low velocity HP round, well known today mostly because it was the only HP round when the Seecamp was developed, and continues to this day to be among the suggested ammo for Seecamps (stupid, if you ask me), though the Silvertips design has been changed since the 80's and Seecamp now often suggests Gold Dots as the superior round. The Silvertips may work, but if they expand much they may not. Again, you very desperately need penetration if you are carrying a .32, and ball ammo is the way to go. Euro FMJ's and Buffalo Bore are probably about as good as it gets for commercial .32 carry ammo.

That's not to say that with a 4" or longer barrel that .32 HP's wouldn't work respectably, but again, at that point it'd be time to carry a better caliber.
there are plenty of pressure points on the body, the adam's apple or anything near the throat/windpipe/artery areas will suffice. the USMC taught us to hit at all the places considered "off limits" in "polite" fighting. "grab, twist, pull, grab"... i'll let your imaginations fill in the blanks. if you want to hit, why not hit somewhere soft? less damage to your hand.
ETA, my BUG is a keltec .380, conceals very nicely.
 
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DrTodd

Michigan Moderator
Joined
Jun 20, 2008
Messages
3,337
Location
Hudsonville , Michigan, USA
The ear canal shot would work, but an easier and just as combat effective option is to clap a persons ears with your bare hands. This will mess someone up very dramatically.

About the ammo, Silvertips are a low velocity HP round, well known today mostly because it was the only HP round when the Seecamp was developed, and continues to this day to be among the suggested ammo for Seecamps (stupid, if you ask me), though the Silvertips design has been changed since the 80's and Seecamp now often suggests Gold Dots as the superior round. The Silvertips may work, but if they expand much they may not. Again, you very desperately need penetration if you are carrying a .32, and ball ammo is the way to go. Euro FMJ's and Buffalo Bore are probably about as good as it gets for commercial .32 carry ammo.

That's not to say that with a 4" or longer barrel that .32 HP's wouldn't work respectably, but again, at that point it'd be time to carry a better caliber.
I've used my .22lr, not my .22mag, pistol to dispatch some pretty nasty varmints while trapping; one shot in the ear tends to save the fur. I am sure there are many areas equally, or even better, on a human.

Not even considering a .32 in the future so I have no idea regarding ammo... I was just taking a very wild guess and wasn't even sure they made silvertips in .32 :)
 

Bronson

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2008
Messages
2,157
Location
Battle Creek, Michigan, USA
SOME .32 self defense rounds (Winchester "Silvertip"??).
Save your money on Silvertips in .32 acp. When I bought my first .32 the counter guy recommended Silvertips so I bought a box. When I tested them shooting through fabric into water the majority of the box failed to expand...could have bought FMJ for half the price and got the same performance.

Recently Corbon released their very good DPX round in .32 acp. This has some promise. When I tested them using the same protocol as above they all expanded and penetrated nearly as far as the .380 DPX that I've tested.

All that being said I normally load FMJ or I load my .32 with one DPX in the chamber, one as the top round of the mag, and rest FMJ to avoid a problem with .32 acp hollow point rounds called rimlock....which is a nasty firing stoppage that is not easily cleared.

Bronson
 

Michigander

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
4,836
Location
Mulligan's Valley
I've used my .22lr, not my .22mag, pistol to dispatch some pretty nasty varmints while trapping; one shot in the ear tends to save the fur. I am sure there are many areas equally, or even better, on a human.
No question about that. The lowly 20 somethings will kill a person as dead as anything with proper shot placement. The balance that must be measured however is whether or not a knife, club, or even hand to hand techniques can be considered more effective for a given person in a given situations. An eye, neck, ear or spine shot may very well be harder to score than 3 fast stabs from a knife, or even just an eye gouge or kick to the knee. Never mind the serious capabilities of eye irritants.

The fact that the micro compact 20 somethings work is not at all lost on me, and in fact I'd stand up for their use by someone who is legitimately skilled and knowledgeable, and for whatever reason really wants to carry it. But it's still just about universally not going to work as well as many different weapons of a similar size.
 
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