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The Right of the People to Keep and Bear Arms

2a4all

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 1, 2008
Messages
1,848
Location
Newport News, Virginia, USA
Tonight on Jeopardy the answer was "In 1139, Pope Innocent II banned this type of weapon as too barbaric.". The correct response was "What is the crossbow?". I was a bit surprised, so I thought I'd share a bit of research.

[FONT=&quot]In 1097, Pope Urban II outlawed the use of the crossbow. Four decades later, Pope Innocent II convened a Lateran Council with nearly 1,000 prelates. They forbade “under penalty of anathema” not just the use of crossbows, “the dastard’s weapon,” but the entire “deadly and God-detested art of slingers and archers.” You could get a waiver if you were on a crusade, but that’s a different conversation. Of course, it wasn’t just the Catholic Church. Conrad III, the Holy Roman Emperor (who we all know was not Holy, not Roman, and not known for particularly good teeth), banned the use of the crossbow in his army and his realm. Flanders — the nation, not Homer Simpson’s neighbor — outlawed the crossbow as well.

Now there were lots of reasons for the crossbow crackdown. Indeed, one of the more interesting lessons is for gun controllers. You see, with a crossbow (or long bow), a peasant could kill a knight while staying clear of the knight’s broadsword. Obviously, knights had been better armed and were generally in better health than the average peasant. Their military superiority only reinforced the aristocracy’s sense of (divine) entitlement. But the crossbow leveled the playing field. In a sense, it was a democratizing force. The crossbow radically reduced the ability of the knights to ride roughshod over the populace, and hence was considered destabilizing to the rigid social order. This lesson should be familiar to anyone who believes the right to bear arms to be a bulwark against tyranny. If you are as strong as the representatives of the state, the state has to treat you with respect.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/204995/crossbows-suicide-bombers-jonah-goldberg[/FONT]
 

Fallschirjmäger

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Aug 4, 2007
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Location
Cumming, Georgia, USA
Both archers and crossbowmen could stay out of the reach of a knight's sword.
But it took weeks to months to train a proficient archer and any peasant could aim a crossbow at a breastplate with only a few hours of training.
 
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countryclubjoe

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2013
Messages
2,505
Location
nj
The crossbow for killing purposes was considered cowardly however, is not " all fair in love and WAR"? Similar to today's sniper..

Some police forces I believe in China still use the crossbow. On a personal note, I own an Excalibur Matrix 380 great for deer hunting and much more humane in my humble opinion.

Considering that we view open carry as the more honorable method of carry, conceal carry would be the equivalent to the crossbow and or sniper aka the cowardly method.

During Pope's time I imagine dying with honor or killing with honor was for lack of a better word " honorable" However is there any honor in war?

In the words of George RR Martin, " the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. If you would take a man's life, you owe it to him to look into his eyes and hear his final words and if you cannot bear to do that, then perhaps the man does not deserve to die'. I concur, however Deer deserve no such favor.

Fun topic, I would be interested to know how many fellow members own "crossbows" or belong to any archery associations. In college I started the irish Knight Bow-benders Club... What great times they were. Our motto was, " fight for ladies not over them".. Sadly we live in a world where chivalry and honor are indeed dead..

My .02
Regards
CCJ
 

countryclubjoe

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Mar 3, 2013
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nj
Both archers and crossbowmen could stay out of the reach of a knight's sword.
But it took weeks to months to train a proficient archer and any peasant could aim a crossbow at a breastplate with only a few hours of training.

Spoken like a true " HIGHLANDER" How else would someone living in the 21st century really know how long it took to train an archer and peasant in the 11th century?

Methos I presume, the oldest living Highlander.. " There can be only one"!

Methos sleeps with his sword and sometimes carries a HANGUN.. He is also a writer of sorts therefore Falls you fit the description.

Fallschirmjager I now knight you METHOS.. :D

My .02
CCJ
 

CJ4wd

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 22, 2017
Messages
323
Location
Planet Earth
Both archers and crossbowmen could stay out of the reach of a knight's sword.
But it took weeks to months to train a proficient archer and any peasant could aim a crossbow at a breastplate with only a few hours of training.

That's why there are so many "shooters" out there that have a penchant for holding handguns on their sides. As "Maria" said near the end of "West Side Story", all she had to do is "pull this little trigger?" Anybody, barring medical or physical impairment, can "wiggle" their finger and pull a trigger, even an idiot.
There seems to be a lot of "finger wiggling" going on out there. And it may be that latter category of shooter doing the most.
 

Fallschirjmäger

Active member
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Messages
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Location
Cumming, Georgia, USA
Archery was important enough in Medieval England to where was required that longbows be owned and that archery practice mandated.


The English longbow is not a simple instrument to master as draw weights were high (estimated to be between 75 and 125 lb/f or more). Archers were trained up in the skill from an early age. The skeletons of longbow archers are easily distinguished by enlarged bones of the left arm and the degeneration of cartilage in the accompanying wrist and shoulders along with the fingers of the right hand.

Training with the crossbow is comparatively simple.
The crossbow is aimed down the center as is a modern rifle rather than having to triangulate between an offset eye and the tip of the arrow.

The crossbow can be drawn and held in a drawn position for long amounts of time, minutes or even hours, unlike a longbow where human muscles will soon tire of holding a 75-125lb draw weight for more than a few seconds.

The crossbow has essentially unlimited draw weight with the leverage provided by either foot stirrups, levers or gears. The limiting factor becomes the tensile strength of the crossbow materials (string, or limb). On the other hand, a longbow cannot have a draw weight that exceeds the power of an archer's arms.

The disadvantage to the crossbow is that it generally takes about twice as long between loosing bolts as a longbow does to loose an arrow. Where rapid ranged fighting is necessary the longow is superior to the crossbow.


The crossbow was never banned for any reasons of 'cowardice', it was banned as a straight up measure of protectionism.
The mounted knights were the king of battle, but they were expensive. They needed armor and they needed horses, both of which required massive amounts of infrastructure. On the other hand, an entire company conscripted peasants could be equipped with crossbows and trained for a comparative pittance. And when it comes right down to it... two dozen crossbows per single mounted knight are going to turn the knight into a pin cushion every single time.
 
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countryclubjoe

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Mar 3, 2013
Messages
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nj
"The bodkin point and shaft went through the thickest portion of the back, penetrated an inch of wood and bulged out the opposite side of the armour shirt. The attendant turned a pale green. An arrow of this type can be shot about two hundred yards, and would be deadly up to the full limit of its flight."
Hunting with the Bow and Arrow, by Saxton Pope. https://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext05/8hbow10.txt

And from Hamlet, III, 1, 1762 "For who would bear the whips and scorns of time,
Th' oppressor's wrong, the proud man's contumely,
The pangs of despis'd love, the law's delay,
The insolence of office, and the spurns
That patient merit of th' unworthy takes,
When he himself might his quietus make
With a bare bodkin? Who would these fardels bear,
To grunt and sweat under a weary life,
But that the dread of something after death-
The undiscover'd country, from whose bourn
No traveller returns- puzzles the will,
And makes us rather bear those ills we have
Than fly to others that we know not of?
[ ... ]"

Fardels, such a great sounding word, with such a simple meaning.. " a bundle' -- Oh the elegance and deception of Shakespeare...

My .02
CCJ
 

Va_Nemo

Member
Joined
May 1, 2016
Messages
653
Location
Lynchburg
Fun topic, I would be interested to know how many fellow members own "crossbows" or belong to any archery associations. In college I started the irish Knight Bow-benders Club... What great times they were. Our motto was, " fight for ladies not over them".. Sadly we live in a world where chivalry and honor are indeed dead..

My .02
Regards
CCJ

I have both crossbow and longbow. Along with an Arming sword. I have had sold my masonic dress sword and my hand and a half.

Never draw unless blood is intended. Upon return to the scabbard a kiss on the cross guard in thanks to keeping you whole is proper.

Nemo

For more info on swords-- http://www.medievalwarfare.info/weapons.htm
 
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Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,331
Location
Valhalla
I have both crossbow and longbow. Along with an Arming sword. I have had sold my masonic dress sword and my hand and a half.

Never draw unless blood is intended. Upon return to the scabbard a kiss on the cross guard in thanks to keeping you whole is proper.

Nemo

For more info on swords-- http://www.medievalwarfare.info/weapons.htm
I travel myself, but never to the north. My sword is always on my side.
 

Firearms Iinstuctor

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2011
Messages
3,358
Location
northern wis
I have both crossbow and longbow. Along with an Arming sword. I have had sold my masonic dress sword and my hand and a half.

Never draw unless blood is intended. Upon return to the scabbard a kiss on the cross guard in thanks to keeping you whole is proper.

Nemo

For more info on swords-- http://www.medievalwarfare.info/weapons.htm

I started shooting a long bow over 50 years ago I now hunt with a cross bow and used every thing else in-between the two.

I have trained, played with swords and other edged weapons for longer then that. The hours I spend with throwing knifes, axes, spears, blowguns were many. Was it fun and games and use-full in over all conditioning and mind set yes.

I like fine edged weapons and tools.

But the same time spent learning how to shoot a handgun makes one more effective.

A good modern hand gun beats them all where legal for the ease of use, carry and effectiveness for every day carry.
 
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