The NRA, $$$, SB59 and why we should stop it.

[Bikenut]

See People V Watkins. It's discussed on MGO's legal beagle in the "Gun Rights Litigation" sub-forum.

People V Watkins could make OC in a PFZ with a CPL illegal. I encourage everyone to go read that thread.

Link: http://www.migunowners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=136331

I have met and spoke with Mr. Watkins. However, I'm curious as to how making CC legal in PFZs will somehow strengthen legal OC with a CPL in a PFZ.

Would not the good? judge still be able to argue that CC being legal in a PFZ still doesn't make OC in a PFZ legal?

 

[TheQ]

Read that thread over. The judge said CC in a PFZ was an "absurd" interpretation of the law.

If you get an exemption under MCL 28.425o, it suddenly makes it less "absurd".

Even if it does nothing to improve OC, it improves CC -- something I hope we can all get behind (many people CC a BUG).

If you still can't get behind it and you don't like MOC getting behind it, I suggest you write board@miopencarry.org as it was a board decision.

 

[WilDChilD]

It's not just one person here who doesnt like the concept of fresh licensing. There are others from here I am working with to stop this bill, and they may make themselves known if they wish.

No wonder firearm rights are going nowhere in this state. We fight with each other more than the enemy. Instead of trying to slowly erode the pfz's, some want to stand and shout that they should just be repealed even if it doesnt pass the senate. I also like that some people are hiding in the weeds instead of coming out (like Michigander) and owning it. SB59 is a step in the right direction, cant light the whole world on fire at once you have to make small fires all over the place and then it will spread.

 

[WilDChilD]

I will not OC in a PFZ because i do not want to spend the money to defend myself. I tell people that some say it is legal and some judges say its not, and they can make there own judgement from there. I would OC and CC in PFZ's if I was exempt.

 

[WARCHILD]

Even if it does nothing to improve OC, it improves CC -- something I hope we can all get behind (many people CC a BUG).

Sorry Q but I just can't get behind this line of thinking.
Michigan
Open
Carry
(insert your statement here)

Seems a bit hypocritical from my understanding of the primary goals of MOC from it's inception.

Do you honestly think this statement makes any sense? I thought you were a proponent of supporting Constitutional carry.

Are you now willing to accept their "carrot" in lieu of pursuing the goal of repealing the countless gun laws that don't work?

I have the utmost respect for you and don't mean to offend but I am clearly confused by your train of thought with this bill.

Respectfully, JB

 

[TheQ]

Even if it does nothing to improve OC, it improves CC -- something I hope we can all get behind (many people CC a BUG).

Sorry Q but I just can't get behind this line of thinking.
Michigan
Open
Carry
(insert your statement here)

Seems a bit hypocritical from my understanding of the primary goals of MOC from it's inception.

Do you honestly think this statement makes any sense? I thought you were a proponent of supporting Constitutional carry.

Are you now willing to accept their "carrot" in lieu of pursuing the goal of repealing the countless gun laws that don't work?

I have the utmost respect for you and don't mean to offend but I am clearly confused by your train of thought with this bill.

Respectfully, JB

I do support Constitutional Carry (which deals with CC more than OC since OC without a permit is already legal (restrictions apply). When it comes up, I will support it full force. Right now we aren't looking at a bill for constitutional carry. Again, this was a decision that was made unanimously by the MOC board -- to support this bill. Just because we support this bill does not mean we don't want to see constitutional carry.

We are pragmatic. "Does this bill make things better tomorrow than they are today?" Answer yes? We'll support it (with very few exceptions).

As I mentioned on MGO, MOC has 2 board positions coming open in July. You're welcome to nominate for them and get involved (as soon as you become a member again): Vice President and Treasurer. To anyone not willing to get involved but yet wants to complain (without proposing solutions), let me ask -- how are the cheap seats doing?

 

[scot623]

How can anyone bash theQ for stepping outside the stated goals of MOC to help improve gun rights for all Michigan citizens? Should MOC do nothing but promote OC? It's not like he(MOC, including me as VP) is supporting a bill that hurts OC.

 

[Bronson]

I see this as a step, not a destination. Much like "shall issue" wasn't going to pass without the addition of the PFZs in the first place, exempting people from the PFZs isn't going to happen without the training requirement. Now that CPL holders have shown they are responsible and law abiding we are going to show them that just because we cross some arbitrary line we don't becone reckless and murderous.

We aren't going to be able to jump to the summit of the mountain, we're going to have to climb and this bill is just a step along the way.

Bronson

 

[stainless1911]

^^
+1

Today this is our best, and quite probably, the only option that we have.

As was mentioned, next term we will very likely lose the majority. This is the first major change since shall issue, and I expect it to take another 10 years before we get anything this good again.

 

[Bronson]

How can you make this post, then bash theQ for stepping outside the stated goals of MOC to help improve gun rights for all Michigan citizens?

I think you've mistaken WilDChilD for WARCHILD.

Bronson

 

[detroit_fan]

I see this as a step, not a destination. Much like "shall issue" wasn't going to pass without the addition of the PFZs in the first place, exempting people from the PFZs isn't going to happen without the training requirement. Now that CPL holders have shown they are responsible and law abiding we are going to show them that just because we cross some arbitrary line we don't becone reckless and murderous.

We aren't going to be able to jump to the summit of the mountain, we're going to have to climb and this bill is just a step along the way.

Bronson

That is exactly how I see it too.

 

[scot623]

Nothing like seeing people who support 2A rights with every breath they breathe fighting this bill. Awesome. We lost our 2A rights little by little, we are trying to get them back in the same manner. If you really think you can get a Constitutional Carry bill with no PFZ's introduced, passed out of committe, supported by both the House and the Senate and signed into law in today's political climate with all the different lobbies who fight against firearm carry...you are frickin' delusional.

 

[Bronson]

Michigander I have respect for your passion and no great love for the NRA. That being said I believe I have found a way for you to focus your energies and hit them where it hurts.

When you get back here to MI start your own statewide training organization. You can certify instructors and they can teach the current CPL requirements and the proposed extended requirements.

28.425j

(1) A pistol training or safety program described in section 5b(7)(c) meets the requirements for knowledge or training in the safe use and handling of a pistol only if the program consists of not less than 8 hours of instruction and all of the following conditions are met:

(a) The program is certified by this state or a national or state firearms training organization and provides 5 hours of instruction in, but is not limited to providing instruction in, all of the following:

I'm not being facetious here. I honestly think you should do it.

Bronson

 

[WilDChilD]

How can anyone bash theQ for stepping outside the stated goals of MOC to help improve gun rights for all Michigan citizens? Should MOC do nothing but promote OC? It's not like he(MOC, including me as VP) is supporting a bill that hurts OC.

What?

 

[scot623]

I think you've mistaken WilDChilD for WARCHILD.

Bronson

You're right...fixed it.

 

[Bikenut]

Read that thread over. The judge said CC in a PFZ was an "absurd" interpretation of the law.

If you get an exemption under MCL 28.425o, it suddenly makes it less "absurd".

Even if it does nothing to improve OC, it improves CC -- something I hope we can all get behind (many people CC a BUG).

If you still can't get behind it and you don't like MOC getting behind it, I suggest you write board@miopencarry.org as it was a board decision.

My question was sincere and was only in regards to how would making CC legal in a PFZ make OC, which is already legal in a PFZ, more legal? That little check box on the CC permit has absolutely nothing to do with OC.

As for the ******* contest going on... Since I wasn't.. and still am not... participating I'll stand over by the TV because no matter what no one ever pees on the TV... but I still would like an answer to my question.

 

[autosurgeon]

Here is the problem with your thinking Glenn. You HATE the NRA I know that and so do many others. That is irrelevant to this bill as the NRA officially has had nothing to do with it. The second problem with your thought process and the one that gives me a headache is you do not understand how we get things changed in the legislature. We do it via compromise that is only the way things get done. Hard line positions don't work most of the time.

Obviously there are things about SB59 that I would rather were different however at the end of the day it is progress in the right direction. It is easy for people to say "JUST OC IN THE PFZ" well that won't work in every situation and if you are not aware what I am referring to think about it harder.

The only NRA involvement is via those of us that are members and or Training Counselors. Training has to be that which can be made available state wide and that which is Nationally Normed. Unfortunately there are few other programs that meet these requirements.

Also this is not a new licence it is just an addition to what we have now. If you don't want the exemption then don't get it!

Now on to Constitutional Carry. There are not enough votes to get a bill heard in committee on that right now but that is not a good reason to sit on our hands.

Finally I have a great deal of respect for you Glenn however this time in my opinion your hatred of the NRA is clouding your reasoning skills! There is no NRA conspiracy in this bill no matter how much you might like to think so.

 

[autosurgeon]

My question was sincere and was only in regards to how would making CC legal in a PFZ make OC, which is already legal in a PFZ, more legal? That little check box on the CC permit has absolutely nothing to do with OC.

As for the ******* contest going on... Since I wasn't.. and still am not... participating I'll stand over by the TV because no matter what no one ever pees on the TV... but I still would like an answer to my question.

By making a much larger group of people that COULD be exempt from PFZ's a part of the equation we should see fewer LEO's getting worked up over OC in PFZ's.

That of course would likely take time to filter out through Law Enforcement.

 

[Bikenut]

By making a much larger group of people that COULD be exempt from PFZ's a part of the equation we should see fewer LEO's getting worked up over OC in PFZ's.

That of course would likely take time to filter out through Law Enforcement.

I guess I'm dense since I don't understand how CC, where the gun is out of sight, in a PFZ is going to make OC, where the gun is visible, any more acceptable? It's not like CC has any value in causing folks to become accustomed to guns being around them since they still don't know there are guns around them.

And LE knowing that CC with guns that he can't see is legal in that PFZ still isn't going to stop an officer from getting "worked up" over an OC'd gun that he can see in that same PFZ. And the same reasoning holds true for the general public in those PFZs.

Look... if folks want to support a bill that benefits CC regardless of their reasons... go for it. But when it is stated that the CC PFZ bill benefits OC in PFZs, which is already legal, I'd like to know exactly how this bill makes that so.

And despite all the tender egos running around in this thread... I'm still just asking, politely and with respect, for clarification.

 

[autosurgeon]

The more people that can legally carry in PFZ's means more likelihood that the person OCing is legal in multiple ways. Not to mention by it being generally known that any person with a CPL has the ability to be exempt there will likely be fewer calls made.

This is all just conjecture... I really think any bill that helps make it easier to carry for SD CC or OC needs our support...