M-Taliesin
Regular Member
Howdy Folks!
My pal Pipster was at a TCF bank yesterday at Lone Tree. He had been in the bank approximately 45 minutes when he was approached by an assistant bank manager by the name of Justin Warner. Mr. Warner asked Pip if he is a law enforcement officer. Pipster told him he is just a law abiding citizen. The guy evidently asked Pip why he had a handgun, and Pip tells me he explained that open carry is legal in Colorado and he carries his sidearm for self defense. At that point, according to what I've been told, Mr. Warner told Pipster it is against federal law to carry a handgun in the bank. Pipster told him that isn't so. Mr. Warner then asked Pipster to put his handgun in his car.
Pipster called me to relate this incident. I subsequently called the customer service number and ended up talking with a supervisor who identified himself as Diego. I asked him to articulate the TCF bank policy, and he was unable to do so. I demanded that he make that information available, explaining as I did that I would report what I learned to the OC community, and every gun rights group I can find. He told me he would find out and return my call before the end of the day with an answer. Around 5 or 6pm, Diego called me back to tell me he hadn't an answer yet, but would call me the following day (today) when he got an answer. To no surprise on my part, I did not hear from him this morning, so called back through and asked for him. After languishing on hold for awhile, I was told he is on another phone call and he'd call me back. I was not interested in being snow-balled any further, so I set about to uncover the number to the corporate offices. I found a number and spoke with a lady filling in for the CEO's secretary.
I explained that open carry is legal in Colorado, and generally, corporations will follow the state law as pertains to open carry. She seemed to be of the opinion that they would likely do the same. She also commented that it sounded like Mr. Warner might need additional training in this regard. I asked why none of their lower level managers or supervisors could articulate the corporate policy in respect to Open Carry. She said that might need addressed, but they'd never had the question raised before. I noted that appeared to be the result of Mr. Warner's personal attitude rather than a matter of corporate policy. She said she'd get in touch with the appropriate people to get an answer on corporate policy. I told her I would very much like a copy of that policy in writing!
Then, around 2pm today, I got a call from a gentleman who identified himself as John Maloney, with TCF Corporate Security. In his opening remarks he said, and this is as closely as I can quote from memory, "We don't have a specific policy that you can't walk into a TCF bank and defecate (i.e., to take a dump) on the floor! I told him that comparing open carry to taking a crap was a very inappropriate position, and hardly worthy of civil discourse. He told me he is a former cop, and a bunch of other useless information to impress me with his credentials. He then related how CCW holders here in Colorado receive very little training, aren't considered safe carrying a handgun in the bank, and if an incident took place and they decided to use their handgun, the bank didn't want liability. I explained that both Pipster and I received our training from a guy who trains Navy Seals, and we had to qualify on the range. I also explained that we practice our shooting skills frequently. I added that in an average year, law abiding citizens shoot 2800+ times per year, while cops only shoot about 300. I also noted that citizens shoot an innocent bystander only 2% of the time compared to police who shoot the wrong person some 11% of the time. I told him he should fear cops in his bank, not law abiding citizens.
He then went on to explain how they will ask a gun carrier to leave their weapon in their car if they 'feel' uncomfortable, anxious or nervous about it. That would include customers, tellers, managers or anybody else who didn't care for the legally armed carrier openly carrying. I asked him whether they had similar prohibition against CCW carriers who came in concealed. He seemed to feel that was okay, but all the things he said earlier were in direct contradiction to that. I also reminded him that bank robbers seldom will show a handgun. They'll imply or suggest they have a gun, but seldom show one. Meanwhile, law abiding citizens carrying openly is hardly suggestive they are about to engage in a crime.
Mr. Maloney also told me that he consults with security heads of other banks, such as Wells Fargo, Chase, and other banks. But the odd part is, Pipster has an account at Chase, and was never told to leave his sidearm in the car, nor chased out of the Chase bank. The same goes for my experience, where nobody has ever confronted me when openly carrying in a bank. So far as I can discern, Mr. Maloney is also anti open carry, and despite his protestations to the contary, feels that anybody who doesn't like a citizen who exercises his constitutional rights of self defense can cause a law abiding citizen to either disarm or leave.
After spending a great deal of time telling me that he is all about NRA, 2a and all that sort of thing, the bottom line was:
If we want to ask you to put your gun in the car, that's just the way things are.
In my opinion, TCF bank does not care about your rights to lawful self defense. They do not have their banks posted to prohibit firearms as they know that would be an outrage not acceptable to a huge number of people who carry for self defense. Instead, they want things both ways... they want your money in their bank, but not your rights. They want your business, but not your sidearm. They want your patronage, but not your constitutional means of self defense.
I would suggest that every citizen carrier who feels their rights are threatened by government should take a hard, cold look at TCF Bank. They pose a much more imminent threat to your rights. They do not deserve your business. They should be flooded by calls from gun carriers from coast to coast, border to border, complaining of their policy of no policy. They liken open carry to defecating on the floor of the bank. They seem to have no problem defecating on the Constitution, the rights of their customers to lawful self defense, and the individual who gives them business only to receive that material that rolls down hill to land all over their rights.
Blessings,
M-Taliesin
My pal Pipster was at a TCF bank yesterday at Lone Tree. He had been in the bank approximately 45 minutes when he was approached by an assistant bank manager by the name of Justin Warner. Mr. Warner asked Pip if he is a law enforcement officer. Pipster told him he is just a law abiding citizen. The guy evidently asked Pip why he had a handgun, and Pip tells me he explained that open carry is legal in Colorado and he carries his sidearm for self defense. At that point, according to what I've been told, Mr. Warner told Pipster it is against federal law to carry a handgun in the bank. Pipster told him that isn't so. Mr. Warner then asked Pipster to put his handgun in his car.
Pipster called me to relate this incident. I subsequently called the customer service number and ended up talking with a supervisor who identified himself as Diego. I asked him to articulate the TCF bank policy, and he was unable to do so. I demanded that he make that information available, explaining as I did that I would report what I learned to the OC community, and every gun rights group I can find. He told me he would find out and return my call before the end of the day with an answer. Around 5 or 6pm, Diego called me back to tell me he hadn't an answer yet, but would call me the following day (today) when he got an answer. To no surprise on my part, I did not hear from him this morning, so called back through and asked for him. After languishing on hold for awhile, I was told he is on another phone call and he'd call me back. I was not interested in being snow-balled any further, so I set about to uncover the number to the corporate offices. I found a number and spoke with a lady filling in for the CEO's secretary.
I explained that open carry is legal in Colorado, and generally, corporations will follow the state law as pertains to open carry. She seemed to be of the opinion that they would likely do the same. She also commented that it sounded like Mr. Warner might need additional training in this regard. I asked why none of their lower level managers or supervisors could articulate the corporate policy in respect to Open Carry. She said that might need addressed, but they'd never had the question raised before. I noted that appeared to be the result of Mr. Warner's personal attitude rather than a matter of corporate policy. She said she'd get in touch with the appropriate people to get an answer on corporate policy. I told her I would very much like a copy of that policy in writing!
Then, around 2pm today, I got a call from a gentleman who identified himself as John Maloney, with TCF Corporate Security. In his opening remarks he said, and this is as closely as I can quote from memory, "We don't have a specific policy that you can't walk into a TCF bank and defecate (i.e., to take a dump) on the floor! I told him that comparing open carry to taking a crap was a very inappropriate position, and hardly worthy of civil discourse. He told me he is a former cop, and a bunch of other useless information to impress me with his credentials. He then related how CCW holders here in Colorado receive very little training, aren't considered safe carrying a handgun in the bank, and if an incident took place and they decided to use their handgun, the bank didn't want liability. I explained that both Pipster and I received our training from a guy who trains Navy Seals, and we had to qualify on the range. I also explained that we practice our shooting skills frequently. I added that in an average year, law abiding citizens shoot 2800+ times per year, while cops only shoot about 300. I also noted that citizens shoot an innocent bystander only 2% of the time compared to police who shoot the wrong person some 11% of the time. I told him he should fear cops in his bank, not law abiding citizens.
He then went on to explain how they will ask a gun carrier to leave their weapon in their car if they 'feel' uncomfortable, anxious or nervous about it. That would include customers, tellers, managers or anybody else who didn't care for the legally armed carrier openly carrying. I asked him whether they had similar prohibition against CCW carriers who came in concealed. He seemed to feel that was okay, but all the things he said earlier were in direct contradiction to that. I also reminded him that bank robbers seldom will show a handgun. They'll imply or suggest they have a gun, but seldom show one. Meanwhile, law abiding citizens carrying openly is hardly suggestive they are about to engage in a crime.
Mr. Maloney also told me that he consults with security heads of other banks, such as Wells Fargo, Chase, and other banks. But the odd part is, Pipster has an account at Chase, and was never told to leave his sidearm in the car, nor chased out of the Chase bank. The same goes for my experience, where nobody has ever confronted me when openly carrying in a bank. So far as I can discern, Mr. Maloney is also anti open carry, and despite his protestations to the contary, feels that anybody who doesn't like a citizen who exercises his constitutional rights of self defense can cause a law abiding citizen to either disarm or leave.
After spending a great deal of time telling me that he is all about NRA, 2a and all that sort of thing, the bottom line was:
If we want to ask you to put your gun in the car, that's just the way things are.
In my opinion, TCF bank does not care about your rights to lawful self defense. They do not have their banks posted to prohibit firearms as they know that would be an outrage not acceptable to a huge number of people who carry for self defense. Instead, they want things both ways... they want your money in their bank, but not your rights. They want your business, but not your sidearm. They want your patronage, but not your constitutional means of self defense.
I would suggest that every citizen carrier who feels their rights are threatened by government should take a hard, cold look at TCF Bank. They pose a much more imminent threat to your rights. They do not deserve your business. They should be flooded by calls from gun carriers from coast to coast, border to border, complaining of their policy of no policy. They liken open carry to defecating on the floor of the bank. They seem to have no problem defecating on the Constitution, the rights of their customers to lawful self defense, and the individual who gives them business only to receive that material that rolls down hill to land all over their rights.
Blessings,
M-Taliesin