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Tactical discussion - loading mags

expvideo

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imperialism2024 wrote:
expvideo wrote:
I challenge anyone on this board to present a situation where you would need more than 10" of penetration from a handgun. There is absolutely no purpose for FMJ in a fighting handgun. .32 auto is not a fighting handgun, so you're going to have to do better than that.
If you're being attacked by a grizzly bear, for one...

But I get the point you're making, and agree. And any sort of "cover" one might need to shoot through will either have no effect on JHP's, or the cover won't be defeated by FMJ's anyway.

The point of FMJ's is to comply with the international "rules" of war, and that's about it, IMO.

Precisely my point. If you need that much penetration, you need something other than a handgun, or at least a very high caliber handgun. FMJ isn't going to do jack sh** to a grizzly, but a .454 cassul or a rifle would.



That is why FMJ is sold as "target ammo" and JHPs are sold as "defense ammo". There is no practical purpose for FMJ, off of the range.
 

deepdiver

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expvideo wrote:
imperialism2024 wrote:
expvideo wrote:
I challenge anyone on this board to present a situation where you would need more than 10" of penetration from a handgun. There is absolutely no purpose for FMJ in a fighting handgun. .32 auto is not a fighting handgun, so you're going to have to do better than that.
If you're being attacked by a grizzly bear, for one...

But I get the point you're making, and agree. And any sort of "cover" one might need to shoot through will either have no effect on JHP's, or the cover won't be defeated by FMJ's anyway.

The point of FMJ's is to comply with the international "rules" of war, and that's about it, IMO.

Precisely my point. If you need that much penetration, you need something other than a handgun, or at least a very high caliber handgun. FMJ isn't going to do jack sh** to a grizzly, but a .454 cassul or a rifle would.



That is why FMJ is sold as "target ammo" and JHPs are sold as "defense ammo". There is no practical purpose for FMJ, off of the range.
Uh-huh. What if you are in a gunfight with zombies in an alley and are down to one cartridge just as the last 3 zombies come at you sigle file through a narrow section and you need to penetrate all 3 zombies with that last bullet? HUH? Without the penetrating power of FMJ how are you going to get all 3 with one shot? Huh? That's what I thought ... dutch loading BABY....

:cool:
 

expvideo

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deepdiver wrote:
expvideo wrote:
imperialism2024 wrote:
expvideo wrote:
I challenge anyone on this board to present a situation where you would need more than 10" of penetration from a handgun. There is absolutely no purpose for FMJ in a fighting handgun. .32 auto is not a fighting handgun, so you're going to have to do better than that.
If you're being attacked by a grizzly bear, for one...

But I get the point you're making, and agree. And any sort of "cover" one might need to shoot through will either have no effect on JHP's, or the cover won't be defeated by FMJ's anyway.

The point of FMJ's is to comply with the international "rules" of war, and that's about it, IMO.

Precisely my point. If you need that much penetration, you need something other than a handgun, or at least a very high caliber handgun. FMJ isn't going to do jack sh** to a grizzly, but a .454 cassul or a rifle would.



That is why FMJ is sold as "target ammo" and JHPs are sold as "defense ammo". There is no practical purpose for FMJ, off of the range.
Uh-huh. What if you are in a gunfight with zombies in an alley and are down to one cartridge just as the last 3 zombies come at you sigle file through a narrow section and you need to penetrate all 3 zombies with that last bullet? HUH? Without the penetrating power of FMJ how are you going to get all 3 with one shot? Huh? That's what I thought ... dutch loading BABY....

:cool:
ROFL, I guess that is one situation. :lol:
 

imperialism2024

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deepdiver wrote:
expvideo wrote:
imperialism2024 wrote:
expvideo wrote:
I challenge anyone on this board to present a situation where you would need more than 10" of penetration from a handgun. There is absolutely no purpose for FMJ in a fighting handgun. .32 auto is not a fighting handgun, so you're going to have to do better than that.
If you're being attacked by a grizzly bear, for one...

But I get the point you're making, and agree. And any sort of "cover" one might need to shoot through will either have no effect on JHP's, or the cover won't be defeated by FMJ's anyway.

The point of FMJ's is to comply with the international "rules" of war, and that's about it, IMO.

Precisely my point. If you need that much penetration, you need something other than a handgun, or at least a very high caliber handgun. FMJ isn't going to do jack sh** to a grizzly, but a .454 cassul or a rifle would.



That is why FMJ is sold as "target ammo" and JHPs are sold as "defense ammo". There is no practical purpose for FMJ, off of the range.
Uh-huh. What if you are in a gunfight with zombies in an alley and are down to one cartridge just as the last 3 zombies come at you sigle file through a narrow section and you need to penetrate all 3 zombies with that last bullet? HUH? Without the penetrating power of FMJ how are you going to get all 3 with one shot? Huh? That's what I thought ... dutch loading BABY....

:cool:
That's when you drop the pistol and pull out your pair of side-by-side sawed-off shotguns... Dual sawed-off shotguns rank a bit higher than multiple-target gunshots on the Badass Scale, anyway.
 

BobCav

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ODA 226 wrote:
imperialism2024 wrote:
ODA 226 wrote:
I found out the hard way at a very young age that the loudest sound in the world was to hit an empty chamber in a gunfight. EVERYONE knows you're out of ammo! :uhoh:
Not as bad as the "ping" from an empty Garand, I'll bet.
With the Garand, that sound is amplified 200%!!!!!

What a sound! If you've never fired a piece of American History... please do!
 

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BobCav

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Flintlock wrote:
Is that you Bob?

That's a perfectly timed picture.. :cool:
Yep, that's me from a couple years ago shooting with my dad who took the pic. He hadn't fired a Garand since 1962 in the Corps and we had a great time. All 3 were CMP rifles and war veterans. My Garand was built in 43 andon the bench you can see my 03 Springfield (1932) and 03/A3 Remington (1943)!
 

deepdiver

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imperialism2024 wrote:
deepdiver wrote:
expvideo wrote:
imperialism2024 wrote:
expvideo wrote:
I challenge anyone on this board to present a situation where you would need more than 10" of penetration from a handgun. There is absolutely no purpose for FMJ in a fighting handgun. .32 auto is not a fighting handgun, so you're going to have to do better than that.
If you're being attacked by a grizzly bear, for one...

But I get the point you're making, and agree. And any sort of "cover" one might need to shoot through will either have no effect on JHP's, or the cover won't be defeated by FMJ's anyway.

The point of FMJ's is to comply with the international "rules" of war, and that's about it, IMO.

Precisely my point. If you need that much penetration, you need something other than a handgun, or at least a very high caliber handgun. FMJ isn't going to do jack sh** to a grizzly, but a .454 cassul or a rifle would.



That is why FMJ is sold as "target ammo" and JHPs are sold as "defense ammo". There is no practical purpose for FMJ, off of the range.
Uh-huh. What if you are in a gunfight with zombies in an alley and are down to one cartridge just as the last 3 zombies come at you sigle file through a narrow section and you need to penetrate all 3 zombies with that last bullet? HUH? Without the penetrating power of FMJ how are you going to get all 3 with one shot? Huh? That's what I thought ... dutch loading BABY....

:cool:
That's when you drop the pistol and pull out your pair of side-by-side sawed-off shotguns... Dual sawed-off shotguns rank a bit higher than multiple-target gunshots on the Badass Scale, anyway.
What? Now that's just silly. Who goes through all the hassle of getting a AOW stamp for two double barrelled shotgun and then tries to carry them around. Even sawed off they are heavy (don't ask why I know that). Nobody is going to do that. Quit making up stuff! Geeze, if you can't have a serious conversation about realistic scenarios then I just don't know ....
 

Legba

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As for the inutility of FMJ rounds in handguns, I have a couple of pistols that just won't feed JHPs right despite any amount of mucking about with the ramps and magazines, so I just resigned myself to using cheaper FMJ rounds. I guess that counts as a 'tactical' consideration, insofar as I'm able to get off more than one shot without a misfeed this way... In the past, I'veused a single hollow-point for the chambered round, with FMJs in the magazine, but I got tired of keeping track. Laziness won out.

I'm also partial to .380s (small hands, not a James Bond fixation), which don't overpenetrate with FMJs, and don't necessarily give much expansion with JHP rounds, (considering they're slow rounds anyway), so I gave up experimenting with mixed magazine loads.

-ljp
 

Bravo_Sierra

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IdahoCorsair wrote:
Don't waste time alternating ammo. If you're worried about penetrating barriers, you should be running away from the fight. And any handgun round isn't going to do that well against barriers/cover anyway. So, if you're in Mogadishu, and carrying only a handgun and 5 extra mags, sure.... carry one or two in FMJ, but for the real world civilian who only anticipates self-defense... your fight will be done in 2-4 rounds... theoretically against a gang maybe one magazine... you'll be running for cover and shooting... or just 'standing up' and fighting, then running away if they're still alive or un-hit or calling the cops to clean up if you hit them all.
my .02 euros
what he said.
 

imperialism2024

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deepdiver wrote:
imperialism2024 wrote:
deepdiver wrote:
expvideo wrote:
imperialism2024 wrote:
expvideo wrote:
I challenge anyone on this board to present a situation where you would need more than 10" of penetration from a handgun. There is absolutely no purpose for FMJ in a fighting handgun. .32 auto is not a fighting handgun, so you're going to have to do better than that.
If you're being attacked by a grizzly bear, for one...

But I get the point you're making, and agree. And any sort of "cover" one might need to shoot through will either have no effect on JHP's, or the cover won't be defeated by FMJ's anyway.

The point of FMJ's is to comply with the international "rules" of war, and that's about it, IMO.

Precisely my point. If you need that much penetration, you need something other than a handgun, or at least a very high caliber handgun. FMJ isn't going to do jack sh** to a grizzly, but a .454 cassul or a rifle would.



That is why FMJ is sold as "target ammo" and JHPs are sold as "defense ammo". There is no practical purpose for FMJ, off of the range.
Uh-huh. What if you are in a gunfight with zombies in an alley and are down to one cartridge just as the last 3 zombies come at you sigle file through a narrow section and you need to penetrate all 3 zombies with that last bullet? HUH? Without the penetrating power of FMJ how are you going to get all 3 with one shot? Huh? That's what I thought ... dutch loading BABY....

:cool:
That's when you drop the pistol and pull out your pair of side-by-side sawed-off shotguns... Dual sawed-off shotguns rank a bit higher than multiple-target gunshots on the Badass Scale, anyway.
What? Now that's just silly. Who goes through all the hassle of getting a AOW stamp for two double barrelled shotgun and then tries to carry them around. Even sawed off they are heavy (don't ask why I know that). Nobody is going to do that. Quit making up stuff! Geeze, if you can't have a serious conversation about realistic scenarios then I just don't know ....
Pssh, who needs AOW stamps? :uhoh:




(I'm kidding. We should obey all gun laws no matter how ridiculous or unconstitutional they are. Or least that's what I'm saying on the record.)
 

expvideo

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Legba wrote:
As for the inutility of FMJ rounds in handguns, I have a couple of pistols that just won't feed JHPs right despite any amount of mucking about with the ramps and magazines, so I just resigned myself to using cheaper FMJ rounds. I guess that counts as a 'tactical' consideration, insofar as I'm able to get off more than one shot without a misfeed this way... In the past, I'veused a single hollow-point for the chambered round, with FMJs in the magazine, but I got tired of keeping track. Laziness won out.

I'm also partial to .380s (small hands, not a James Bond fixation), which don't overpenetrate with FMJs, and don't necessarily give much expansion with JHP rounds, (considering they're slow rounds anyway), so I gave up experimenting with mixed magazine loads.

-ljp

Are you carrying a Lorcin or a Jihadi special? JK, anyway, have you considered Federal Expanding Jacket 9mm?

efmj3.jpg

From what I've read online, it seems to perform pretty well and expands consistantly. The nice thing about it is that it doesn't get clogged on denim and fail to expand. It expands every time, regardless of the material it impacts.

efmj2.jpg



efmj4.jpg


efmjgel.jpg




Check out the full review of this ammo here.
 

Bravo_Sierra

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Liko81 wrote:
There was a discussion on handgunforum.net about the merits of alternating ammo. I thought that particular way of doing things was just OCD and potentially dangerous, however it did make me think that there may be some situations in which a magazine of mixed, if not alternated, ammo would make a difference.

First off, I think having an LTL option like a beanbag, rubber bullet or frangible handgun ammo is lunacy. That one shot may be all you get and if it doesn't put the BG down you could be dead before you get the next shot off.

I also think that alternating ammunition in a mag or cylinder sounds sensible on its face, but really it effectively reduces your ammunition capacity by half when you need only one or the other type of ammunition. For instance, if you alternate hollowpoints with FMJs so you can punch through a car door when you need to, only the FMJs will do the job and you're wasting HPs getting to the FMJs.

However, there are some combinations that might really make sense from a tactical standpoint. For instance, consider the stereotypical shooting; one guy shooting another (or both shooting at each other), it's over in seconds. If it progresses beyond that point, the combatants have found cover and are trading rounds.

Given that logical evolution of a gunfight, would it make any sense to load mags with three or four hollowpoints on top and FMJs for the rest of the mag? In that case, your typicalBG encountercan beended with a few well-aimed hollowpoints. If it progresses to the point where your shooter has found cover, the FMJs give more penetrating power through car doors, wood paneling, walls, etc, and you have them queued up ready to go with no changing of mags necessary.

I think it's a good idea in any case to have one mag of FMJ ammo available for such a situation. It's still the work of a couple seconds to drop your unfinished HP mag and slam a mag of FMJs home, and you should have found cover if the encounter becomes that big of a shootout; if you're heading for cover the HPs make the BG keep his head down just as good as anything else.

Discussion open; feel free to share your preference for mag loading and your logic behind it. Let's just keep it civil, and also remember this is not a caliber thread unless your loading scheme is dependent on or a result of your chosen caliber. The general effectiveness of one caliber over another has been discussed in many threads, some of them still active.
Instead of carrying all this Megaforce crap, just load all your mags with Corbon PoweRball.
 

Legba

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expvideo wrote:
Legba wrote:
As for the inutility of FMJ rounds in handguns, I have a couple of pistols that just won't feed JHPs right despite any amount of mucking about with the ramps and magazines, so I just resigned myself to using cheaper FMJ rounds. I guess that counts as a 'tactical' consideration, insofar as I'm able to get off more than one shot without a misfeed this way... In the past, I'veused a single hollow-point for the chambered round, with FMJs in the magazine, but I got tired of keeping track. Laziness won out.

I'm also partial to .380s (small hands, not a James Bond fixation), which don't overpenetrate with FMJs, and don't necessarily give much expansion with JHP rounds, (considering they're slow rounds anyway), so I gave up experimenting with mixed magazine loads.

-ljp

Are you carrying a Lorcin or a Jihadi special? JK, anyway, have you considered Federal Expanding Jacket 9mm?
Heh, no Lorcins, sorry. MostlyEuropean mil-surp/police stuff, with a few modern Yank pieces, but nothing I consider a 'throw-away'.

I have not used the round in question. It looks interesting, but I wonder that the presumed extra cost is worth it. I'll check (I can always get it wholesale through work). Thanks.

-ljp
 
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