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Self Defense Shooting in Taylor

backenj

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 8, 2012
Messages
82
Location
Muskegon,Mi
The accident didn't result in serious impairment of body function or death of either the bicyclist or the driver. This law doesn't apply. But, continuing for sake of discussion . . .



The driver probably didn't have a clue that remaining at the scene would result in further harm, until the bicyclist, like a crazy person, rushed him and started pummeling him. All witness statements reported indicate, by then, the driver had knuckles in his face and it's kinda hard to drive away in a controllable manner from that.

TOP--I know it didn't. "It wasn't a deadly accident, but it would have been safer to leave and call the cops from a safe place. But then again, he has no duty to retreat."

BOTTOM--Exactly. That was for the people that say he should have driven off. You and I are on the same page. Stand your ground. He had NO duty to retreat.


I don'tknow how to insert in the middle of a quote like you did:(
 

Gort

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 4, 2010
Messages
104
Location
Newport, Michigan, USA
TOP--I know it didn't. "It wasn't a deadly accident, but it would have been safer to leave and call the cops from a safe place. But then again, he has no duty to retreat."

BOTTOM--Exactly. That was for the people that say he should have driven off. You and I are on the same page. Stand your ground. He had NO duty to retreat.


I don'tknow how to insert in the middle of a quote like you did:(

Ambiguous Law
(Reasonable Beliefs or Reasonable self Control?) Boston University Law Library
Yes no duty to retreat, was the shooting justified within the shooters mind, will the Prosecutor agree, will the jury agree,

http://www.bu.edu/lawlibrary/facultypublications/PDFs/Simons/Selfdefense.pdf
 

backenj

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 8, 2012
Messages
82
Location
Muskegon,Mi
Ambiguous Law
(Reasonable Beliefs or Reasonable self Control?) Boston University Law Library
Yes no duty to retreat, was the shooting justified within the shooters mind, will the Prosecutor agree, will the jury agree,

http://www.bu.edu/lawlibrary/facultypublications/PDFs/Simons/Selfdefense.pdf

If they follow the law it shouldn't get to a jury let alone trial. A witness said "He hit him ... maybe seven times or so, and then the driver shot him". The driver was getting his face pummeled. NO DUTY TO RETREAT. I would be surprised if the driver is even charged.
 

HKcarrier

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 9, 2011
Messages
816
Location
michigan
Obviously you have not spent much time in Taylor or have had much conversation with members of Taylor's law enforcement agency, their primary focus is little more than revenue generating through ticket givin or just takin and writtin reports after the fact of or with any incident, the only time they actually do their job correctly is when there is a pile of witnesses screamin fer justice, and those folks are told to step back and be quiet.

With all due respect, what does an incident in OH have to do with this? Different states have different laws, and different cities have different prosecutors. Unless you have an example from Taylor I don't know how you can be so sure of yourself.


You guys, read below:


257.617 Accident resulting in serious impairment of body function or death; stopping required; reporting to police agency or officer; violation as felony; penalty.
Sec. 617.

(1) The driver of a vehicle who knows or who has reason to believe that he or she has been involved in an accident upon public or private property that is open to travel by the public shall immediately stop his or her vehicle at the scene of the accident and shall remain there until the requirements of section 619 are fulfilled or immediately report the accident to the nearest or most convenient police agency or officer to fulfill the requirements of section 619(a) and (b) if there is a reasonable and honest belief that remaining at the scene will result in further harm. The stop shall be made without obstructing traffic more than is necessary.



Also, the driver had put the vehicle in park. He hit the gas pedal to leave, but it was in park. He DID try to leave. That's what his lawyer said in an interview.
 
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TheQ

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2010
Messages
3,379
Location
Lansing, Michigan
I would encourage everyone who says "there is no duty to retreat" to go read the legal discussion I had on the MGO Forum (link above). Pay special attention to SteveS' (a lawyer) posts. The law says that the use of that the force must be "necessary". This means that if you can retreat safely, it isn't necessary. Don't bother arguing about it with me here until yo'veu gone over there and read the discussion.

In this case, after having seen more evidence that has come through, I believe deadly force was "necessary"
 

ScottE

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 10, 2012
Messages
140
Location
Minnesota
I would drove away and not be in jail right now. Glad to see it worked out in the end for the real victim. I have no remorse for the guy on the bike.
 
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TheQ

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2010
Messages
3,379
Location
Lansing, Michigan
I would drove away and not be in jail right now. Glad to see it worked out in the end for the real victim. I have no remorse for the guy on the bike.

If you read the article you would have known that he tried to drive away but his vehicle was in park because of the accident. He didn't have time to put the car in gear and get out of there.
 

autosurgeon

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 29, 2008
Messages
3,831
Location
Lawrence, Michigan, United States
Sorry, I meant drive away instead of shoot him.

To be honest you have no idea what you would do. When you are being physically assaulted your vision narrows and you go into one of two preservation modes. Fight or Flight... and if flight is impeded your body will choose fight and you will naturally fight to survive with whatever you have and are familiar with using. In this case he had a gun and was familiar with using it so that was what his self preservation process used.

All the training in the world cannot prepare you for an adrenalin dump... it is the weirdest feeling almost like you are detached from the situation and watching from outside your body. Then after comes the shakes and upset stomach. My experience with it was not a shooting situation but rather a fire but the reaction is the same.
 

alphamale

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2011
Messages
215
Location
Michigan
I am calling Bull on this one.

Back in the early 70's when I was a very strong young man (gym rat) I pulled into a place and before I could even think, a large (fat) male had grabbed me through my window and started bashing my face into the steering wheel of my 1967 Impala, in mere seconds My eyes were filled with blood and the confusion of having ones head beaten so quickly, and violently and by surprise, there was no "let's think about this".
There was three things that saved me life, one this violent mentally ill murderer stopped for a few seconds to retrieve a Universal M-1 Carbine from his Lincoln just a few feet away and I still had the car in drive, and my Doberman who he never saw launched and nailed him in the face. This allowed me enough time to wipe my face and hit the gas.

Later after the Police finally got the insane man under control, I found out that he had just murdered two people, and beat a teenagers head against a cinder block wall till the kid was near dead, and comatose.

The psychopath was convicted of the two murders later on.

Now what I learned from this was quite simple, that when you Monday morning quarterback a shooting you make a complete fool of oneself because there many variables the Media will never tell you due to bias and liberalism, and a lot of Monday morning Quarterback wanna be reporting themselves. The media pretty much got one thing right, he did murder two people, but the whole rest of the story was a joke, because they had no facts beyond the two murders. This case got a couple days of attention in the media and then vanished.

Here is some real fact. I could not have gotten away from his grip, he was as strong as an ox and adding in the violent insane rage was strong enough to bend the steering wheel and horn rim/ring with my face and still today I have scars to validate this. Had it not been for my Doberman I would most likely be dead. When a person is so violently attacked in such a way as that Man in Taylor was, you can't plan things out. It is impossible to think clearly when you are facing a violent attack and having you brains beat out all at the same time. It is sheer panic and survival mode Period.

This is why I have so much disdain for those who assume they know what they would do, because unless you been there, you are clueless. Unfortunately in my life I have seen much hideous violence my only humor is dark. Those who sit there and assume they know how to react are fools in the least, and if something that violent ever come about on them, they may perish, despite having a firearm. An assault on ones brain bucket often causes fear, confusion, panic and even terror in some cases and all one can do is react in a self defense mode.

Well I could tell you when and where this happened and some of the older ones may remember the case as it was news at 11 back then, but to be honest, I would rather forget it again for another few decades if I live that long.

This was not aimed at anyone in particular, and I just used theQ's post as a springboard to set the tenor of my comments.

If there was an honest prosecutor in this State the man who defended his life would have never been charged or arrested. I grow tired of the Liberal stupidity that says we must give some special treatment of criminals who attack people. The facts are clear, if one is a violent criminal and thinks he can victimize others he should be locked away forever and in this case got what he asked for. He had prior run ins with Police before he attacked the man in the truck. The media articles I read were so biased it made me sick to my stomach. Many of the media fools claimed the truck hit him, and in fact he hit the truck due to his arrogant stupidity.

A well armed society is a polite society it is said and I believe this, and think it's high time people quit making excuses for thugs. And the best advice I can give to those who always run their mouths on this site (not the Q) and talk as if they know what it's like to encounter deadly violence like one person who's name I won't mention because it will just get him foaming at the mouth again, you son have NO clue what you are talking about 98% of the time.

To the Q please forgive my rant, and I know you just threw the comment out as a possibility, and you are right, but the idiots who know it all will foam at the mouth talking how they would handle the situation far better, and their advice is worth the price ( nothing)!

Thank you for your indulgence The-Q, and I will not be here for a few days because I still serve my fellow man unlike the loud mouth on this site, who only runs his mouth, so that person can foam at the mouth making more stupid accusations about what he knows (in his mind only) about what I think and my intentions. That's what is so great about this country, a man can live off the system and throw stones at others on the Internet and make a fool of himself, with no knowledge.







In this case, it's going to be argued (maybe rightly so, I don't know the facts) that the man in the truck could have just as easily drove away -- thus deadly force wasn't "nessicary".
 

budlight

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 7, 2009
Messages
454
Location
Wyandotte, Michigan, USA

Glad to hear! Now I hope he files a lawsuit against the City of Taylor. They had no PC to arrest him on this. The only thing they could legally do is temporarily detain him at scene, ID him, and turn the case over to the prosecutor. There were on scene witnesses who backed his story so I don't understand how the police felt they could legally arrest him.
 

smellslikemichigan

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jun 16, 2008
Messages
2,307
Location
Troy, Michigan, USA
no PC? please elaborate. shooting an unarmed person usually bears further investigation. i'll be the first to call shenanigans on a stop without RAS or PC, but in this case an arrest "may" have been in order. at least until a determination could be made regarding charges.
 
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budlight

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 7, 2009
Messages
454
Location
Wyandotte, Michigan, USA
no PC? please elaborate. shooting an unarmed person usually bears further investigation. i'll be the first to call shenanigans on a stop without RAS or PC, but in this case an arrest "may" have been in order. at least until a determination could be made regarding charges.

If there were no witnesses to the incident to back the victim’s story I would agree with the police. However there were independent witnesses who stuck around. Their accounts indicated two things; 1 the attack was unprovoked, and 2 the victim was struck several times by the suspect before he fired one shot stopping the attack.

Given these statements the officer in charge should have realized there was a high probability that this would be viewed as self defense and the prosecutor would not authorize a warrant. Therefore since the victim was not some deranged nut job, they should have IDed him at scene and released him there. From there they could submit their report and a warrant request. If the warrant request was denied there would have been no civil liability. However they rolled the dice and made the arrest.

Since the warrant request was denied, and no other charges brought, this makes the issue at hand a BAD arrest. If I was on the jury for a civil case on this, I would have no problem awarding the victim big dollars for a false arrest case.
 

griffin

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 16, 2011
Messages
871
Location
Okemos, MI
I know a DPD officer whose publicly stated policy is to arrest them all and let the prosecutor sort it out. :(
 
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