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Open carrying someone else's firearm?

punisherprice

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2011
Messages
92
Location
Las Vegas, NV
If i wanted to carry someone's legally owned firearm on my person, is it covered under the 2nd amendment? This is a small paragraph reading on a blue card that says "C.C. Ord. 12.04.210 It shall be unlawful for any person to sell, give away, or permanently pass on to another person of any pistol, revolver, or any other firearm.......unless the first transferrer registers....to the new owner." I kinda thought about it and I'm not really being given the gun permanently, its really more borrowing it. But I dont feel that a LEO is gonna buy that if I am ever stopped.
Can anyone put their $0.02 in on this matter?
 

Shoobee

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 16, 2012
Messages
599
Location
CCCP (Calif)
If i wanted to carry someone's legally owned firearm on my person, is it covered under the 2nd amendment? This is a small paragraph reading on a blue card that says "C.C. Ord. 12.04.210 It shall be unlawful for any person to sell, give away, or permanently pass on to another person of any pistol, revolver, or any other firearm.......unless the first transferrer registers....to the new owner." I kinda thought about it and I'm not really being given the gun permanently, its really more borrowing it. But I dont feel that a LEO is gonna buy that if I am ever stopped.
Can anyone put their $0.02 in on this matter?

I would not count on Federal Law (the Amendments to the US Constitution) to have any impact on state or county or city law.

All the states, counties, and cities pretty much have ignored much of the Constitution and most of the 2nd Amendment since the late 1800s.

What you need to do is look up your state penal code laws, and your county and city ordinances.

You can google them on the internet fairly easily with a little bit of time and hacking.

Sorry I don't know the answer to your question regarding Clark Co and Las Vegas NV.

I do know that for residents of Clark Co there is a registration requirement, from which nonresident visitors are exempt for 60 days. I came across this in my advance search before my visit and hikes there at Mt Charleston. This does not bode well for anyone wanting to open carry someone else's registered firearm, I would GUESS.

Maybe MAC knows the answer to your questions about Clark Co?

Each state is different, and the counties and cities often have special ordinances of their own as well.

California law is completely silent about borrowing someone else's firearm.

So if two hunters are in the USFS or BLM lands, and one has borrowed the rifle or handgun of another, if for some reason a LEO or game warden LEO ran a serial number check, that should make little difference. They would be checking hunting licenses and tags though.

But the Federal 2nd Amendment will do you little good locally. The LEOs, sheriffs, and police chiefs are used to ignoring the 2nd Amendment. Their job is to enforce local law, which comes from the state legislature and county seats. They may take an oath to support and defend the US Constitution, but the rank and file LEOs are powerless to do so, and the police chiefs and sheriffs have routinely chosen to ignor it instead.
 
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Shoobee

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 16, 2012
Messages
599
Location
CCCP (Calif)
As a Clark County resident, you can take possession of a handgun for 72 hours before you are required to register it.

You may want to dig up a citation for that tidbit. It's a good idea, if you can. Then it becomes a fact rather than hear-say or urban legend.
 

Lostlittlerobot

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2009
Messages
260
Location
Las Vegas, Nevada, USA
NRS 244.364 Limited authority to regulate firearms; restrictions concerning registration of certain firearms in county whose population is 400,000 or more.
I think this is the correct cite.

certain firearms in county whose population is 400,000 or more.
1.Except as otherwise provided by specific statute, the Legislature reserves for itself such rights and powers as are necessary to regulate the transfer, sale, purchase, possession, ownership, transportation, registration and licensing of firearms and ammunition in Nevada, and no county may infringe upon those rights and powers. As used in this subsection, "firearm" means any weapon from which a projectile is discharged by means of an explosive, spring, gas, air or other force.
2.A board of county commissioners may proscribe by ordinance or regulation the unsafe discharge of firearms.
3.If a board of county commissioners in a county whose population is 400,000 or more has required by ordinance or regulation adopted before June 13, 1989, the registration of a firearm capable of being concealed, the board of county commissioners shall amend such an ordinance or regulation to require: a.A period of at least 60 days of residency in the county before registration of such a firearm is required.
b.A period of at least 72 hours for the registration of a pistol by a resident of the county upon transfer of title to the pistol to the resident by purchase, gift or any other transfer.

4.Except as otherwise provided in subsection 1, as used in this section: a."Firearm" means any device designed to be used as a weapon from which a projectile may be expelled through the barrel by the force of any explosion or other form of combustion.
b."Firearm capable of being concealed" includes all firearms having a barrel less than 12 inches in length.
c."Pistol" means a firearm capable of being concealed that is intended to be aimed and fired with one hand.


(Added to NRS by 1989, 652; A 2007, 1289)

Registration
Registration can be accomplished at any Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Substation and at any other law enforcement agency within the incorporated cities of Clark County. (North Las Vegas, Henderson, Overton, and Mesquite).

Registration is quick, simple, and easy. To register simply bring your handgun (unloaded) to any police substation. Submit your State Drivers License or State Identification Card. If you were born outside the United States and its territories, you must also provide either documented proof of U.S. citizenship or documented proof as a permanent resident immigrant. You will receive a cursory background check and given a gun registration card. It's that simple; and there is no registration fee. Please Note: The gun registration card is NOT a permit to carry a firearm concealed. Carrying a firearm concealed without a permit is unlawful and punishable as a felony.


my bold for emphasis.
http://www.lvmpd.com/Permits/FirearmsRegistration.aspx
sorry if this isnt accurately answering the question. had a hell of a day and did this in a few seconds...
 
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MAC702

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
6,337
Location
Nevada
If you are only borrowing it, there is no requirement to ever transfer it to your name. I have personally been in possession of handguns borrowed from others including police officers for months at a time. It was still their gun, just in my possession. The gun was registered to them as the owner.

The gun must be registered if it belongs to a Clark County resident. That is the requirement. You can be in possession of a gun that doesn't belong to you. Period. There is no "transfer of title" for borrowing a firearm, no matter how long the time.

Another reason why the registration scheme is completely useless, even if it were legal. You just have to know what to say. The only way to get cited for owning an unregistered handgun is to incriminate yourself.
 

MAC702

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
6,337
Location
Nevada
As a Clark County resident, you can take possession of a handgun for 72 hours before you are required to register it.

Please use the actual wording of the law. Your use of the word "possession" changes significantly the actual meaning of the law.
 

Shoobee

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 16, 2012
Messages
599
Location
CCCP (Calif)
It looks like all the responses have simply been anecdotal and nobody has yet found anything in the codified law or trial case law that is specifically on point regarding a "possessed" but "unowned" weapon in Clark Co NV.
 

Shoobee

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 16, 2012
Messages
599
Location
CCCP (Calif)
NRS 244.364 Limited authority to regulate firearms; restrictions concerning registration of certain firearms in county whose population is 400,000 or more.
I think this is the correct cite.

certain firearms in county whose population is 400,000 or more.
1.Except as otherwise provided by specific statute, the Legislature reserves for itself such rights and powers as are necessary to regulate the transfer, sale, purchase, possession, ownership, transportation, registration and licensing of firearms and ammunition in Nevada, and no county may infringe upon those rights and powers. As used in this subsection, "firearm" means any weapon from which a projectile is discharged by means of an explosive, spring, gas, air or other force.
2.A board of county commissioners may proscribe by ordinance or regulation the unsafe discharge of firearms.
3.If a board of county commissioners in a county whose population is 400,000 or more has required by ordinance or regulation adopted before June 13, 1989, the registration of a firearm capable of being concealed, the board of county commissioners shall amend such an ordinance or regulation to require: a.A period of at least 60 days of residency in the county before registration of such a firearm is required.
b.A period of at least 72 hours for the registration of a pistol by a resident of the county upon transfer of title to the pistol to the resident by purchase, gift or any other transfer.

4.Except as otherwise provided in subsection 1, as used in this section: a."Firearm" means any device designed to be used as a weapon from which a projectile may be expelled through the barrel by the force of any explosion or other form of combustion.
b."Firearm capable of being concealed" includes all firearms having a barrel less than 12 inches in length.
c."Pistol" means a firearm capable of being concealed that is intended to be aimed and fired with one hand.


(Added to NRS by 1989, 652; A 2007, 1289)

Registration
Registration can be accomplished at any Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Substation and at any other law enforcement agency within the incorporated cities of Clark County. (North Las Vegas, Henderson, Overton, and Mesquite).

Registration is quick, simple, and easy. To register simply bring your handgun (unloaded) to any police substation. Submit your State Drivers License or State Identification Card. If you were born outside the United States and its territories, you must also provide either documented proof of U.S. citizenship or documented proof as a permanent resident immigrant. You will receive a cursory background check and given a gun registration card. It's that simple; and there is no registration fee. Please Note: The gun registration card is NOT a permit to carry a firearm concealed. Carrying a firearm concealed without a permit is unlawful and punishable as a felony.


my bold for emphasis.
http://www.lvmpd.com/Permits/FirearmsRegistration.aspx
sorry if this isnt accurately answering the question. had a hell of a day and did this in a few seconds...

Thanks LostRobot. That at least seems to apply to the first 72 hours of "ownership."
 

usmcmustang

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
Messages
393
Location
Las Vegas, NV & Southern Utah
There’s nothing codified with respect to carrying someone else's firearm (and from what I gather, nothing specific in case law either)… unless of course one is carrying it as a result of stealing it from the owner. Then, any carry of it would be unlawful. Although Clark County requires registration of a firearm (different categories of persons having different time requirements, etc., etc.), and the issuance of a registration (blue) card, there’s nothing in the County Code that requires the carrying and producing of that card. Of course, if your Clark County resident friend has let you borrow his legally registered firearm and you are “accosted” by the gendarme (or gestapo) simply because they observe you carrying (that happens sometime, huh?), and they want to “take a look” at the weapon to “verify” its registration, then one has to be prepared for the “dance” that will follow. That’s just how “simple” or “complicated” it is… nothing more. Whatever happens (and a whole lot of bad **** can happen because of the way the gendarme [or gestapo] might react), ultimately one has committed no crime and one cannot therefore be convicted of a crime.
 
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Felid`Maximus

Activist Member
Joined
Nov 12, 2007
Messages
1,711
Location
Reno, Nevada, USA
Sorry guys, I was not up to par. It is correct that if you possess the gun for less than 72 hours, there is no legal reason requiring it to be registered, but it looks like if you do not take the "title", however that is determined, that you can possess it longer yet.

You are all righteous in stating that I should cite the text. I got lazy. It just seems like every day someone here or on Nevada Shooters or elsewhere is saying something like, "You can't carry a gun registered to someone else and you gotta carry the blue card" etc.

So, what determines who has the "Title" to a gun, anyway? Does the blue card count as a "title?"

What if the owner does not live in Clark County? For instance, say I have a friend Joe in Reno and I moved to Clark County, and I borrow his handgun after I become a resident.

If I consider the handgun to be Joe's gun, and Joe considers it to be his gun, does that mean that it is legally Joe's gun and I never needed to register it because the title never changed hands, or will the courts decide that it isn't Joe's gun because I've had continuous possession of it for months or years?
 
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jdholmes

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2011
Messages
488
Location
Henderson, Nevada
So what is the issue with letting your friend hold the blue card as well in the event of being hassled for it? All they have to do is contact the lender to verify it is in fact still owned by him/her, right?

If I want to carry what is technically my wife's gun, I have been unable to find any law preventing me from doing so.
 

davidmcbeth

Banned
Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
16,169
Location
earth's crust
Sure, why not ... I personally rarely let my guns out of my sight when I let people use them ... but to each their own


Remember, the 2nd amendment is just a piece of paper ... it cannot protect anyone by itself
 
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usmcmustang

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
Messages
393
Location
Las Vegas, NV & Southern Utah
Sorry guys, I was not up to par. It is correct that if you possess the gun for less than 72 hours, there is no legal reason requiring it to be registered, but it looks like if you do not take the "title", however that is determined, that you can possess it longer yet.

You are all righteous in stating that I should cite the text. I got lazy. It just seems like every day someone here or on Nevada Shooters or elsewhere is saying something like, "You can't carry a gun registered to someone else and you gotta carry the blue card" etc.

So, what determines who has the "Title" to a gun, anyway? Does the blue card count as a "title?"

What if the owner does not live in Clark County? For instance, say I have a friend Joe in Reno and I moved to Clark County, and I borrow his handgun after I become a resident.

If I consider the handgun to be Joe's gun, and Joe considers it to be his gun, does that mean that it is legally Joe's gun and I never needed to register it because the title never changed hands, or will the courts decide that it isn't Joe's gun because I've had continuous possession of it for months or years?

The "Law" --- A period of at least 72 hours for the registration of a pistol by a resident of the county upon transfer of title to the pistol to the resident by purchase, gift or any other transfer.

What is "title to?" Well, in legal terms...



“Title to” personal property (a firearm fitting the definition of "personal property") is generally shown by possession, particularly when no proof or strong evidence exists, showing that it has been stolen or known to be lost by another.[FONT=&quot][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
Possession[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] requires a degree of actual control over the object, coupled with the intent to possess and exclude others. The law recognizes two basic types of possession: Actual and Constructive.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
Actual possession[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] exists when an individual knowingly has direct physical control over an object at a given time; for example: an individual open carrying a sidearm that has been loaned to him/her by the actual owner of the sidearm. The individual carrying the sidearm has actual possession of it.

Constructive possession is the power and intent of an individual to control a particular item, even though it is not physically in that person's control; for example, an individual who has loaned a sidearm that he owns to his friend may be said to have constructive possession of the sidearm.[/FONT]


So, seems to me that Judges are probably gonna use this definition of "title to" to determine if someone open carrying a "borrowed" sidearm in Clark County is within the "law." They might "rule" that a Clark County resident has the obligation to register the sidearm in Clark County after having taken "actual possession" of it. The "actual possession" would constitute "title to," as referred to in "the law." And, in accordance with "the law," the 72 hour clock starts ticking upon the taking possession of the sidearm. And... as far as "borrowing" goes, "the law" says also that transfer of "title to" can be not only by purchase or gift, but by "any other transfer," e.g. borrowing. This would certainly be an interesting case to watch unravel. However, I don't think we'll ever see such a case get to any court of much importance.
 

jdholmes

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Jan 27, 2011
Messages
488
Location
Henderson, Nevada
So, seems to me that Judges are probably gonna use this definition of "title to" to determine if someone open carrying a "borrowed" sidearm in Clark County is within the "law." They might "rule" that a Clark County resident has the obligation to register the sidearm in Clark County after having taken "actual possession" of it. The "actual possession" would constitute "title to," as referred to in "the law." And, in accordance with "the law," the 72 hour clock starts ticking upon the taking possession of the sidearm. And... as far as "borrowing" goes, "the law" says also that transfer of "title to" can be not only by purchase or gift, but by "any other transfer," e.g. borrowing. This would certainly be an interesting case to watch unravel. However, I don't think we'll ever see such a case get to any court of much importance.


I think you have an interesting take on it, but don't personally see it as a strong one.

It seems to put a big stretch on the word "title".

Though you may very well be right, my interpretation of "title" in the context of this law comes down to transference of ownership...in the case of Clark County this would be tied to or exhibited with the Blue Card, wouldn't it?
 

usmcmustang

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
Messages
393
Location
Las Vegas, NV & Southern Utah
I think you have an interesting take on it, but don't personally see it as a strong one.

It seems to put a big stretch on the word "title".

Though you may very well be right, my interpretation of "title" in the context of this law comes down to transference of ownership...in the case of Clark County this would be tied to or exhibited with the Blue Card, wouldn't it?

I was just offering legal definitions of those terms used in "the law," e.g. "title to." That's the kind of "stuff" Judges are going to "point" to when rendering judgment.

And... what if you (the one who has "actual possession" of the sidearm) ARE a Clark County resident, but the individual who loaned you the sidearm (the one who has "constructive possession" of the sidearm) is not a Clark Country resident and therefore no blue card exists.

And... again, "the law" says "title to" and "transfer of 'title to' by... any other transfer." "Borrowing" is definitely a "transfer," albeit intended to be temporary.
 

FallonJeeper

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 27, 2011
Messages
576
Location
Fallon, NV
I titled my car as the legal owner, and it is registered, so it can be legally driven. The State knows I own it. Nothing prevents me from letting somebody else drive it, openly, in public.

The registration of a firearm shows who owns it. Does not restrict, as far as I can tell who may carry it or use it. If I go to the range and let somebody else shoot it, am I violating a law? I think not.

I'm speaking hypothetically, because we don't have that nonsense in my county.
 

MAC702

Campaign Veteran
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Jul 31, 2011
Messages
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Nevada
...So, what determines who has the "Title" to a gun, anyway? Does the blue card count as a "title?"

What if the owner does not live in Clark County? For instance, say I have a friend Joe in Reno and I moved to Clark County, and I borrow his handgun after I become a resident.

If I consider the handgun to be Joe's gun, and Joe considers it to be his gun, does that mean that it is legally Joe's gun and I never needed to register it because the title never changed hands, or will the courts decide that it isn't Joe's gun because I've had continuous possession of it for months or years?

Now you are seeing more of why the registration scheme in Clark County is not only a stupid, political waste of millions of dollars, but it is EASILY defeated simply by knowing what to say.

If you loan your car to your friend, even if for months, are you required to tell him to stop at the DMV and put the registration in his name?
 
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usmcmustang

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
Messages
393
Location
Las Vegas, NV & Southern Utah
I titled my car as the legal owner, and it is registered, so it can be legally driven. The State knows I own it. Nothing prevents me from letting somebody else drive it, openly, in public.

The registration of a firearm shows who owns it. Does not restrict, as far as I can tell who may carry it or use it. If I go to the range and let somebody else shoot it, am I violating a law? I think not.

I'm speaking hypothetically, because we don't have that nonsense in my county.

Yes, registration of an auto or a firearm or generally any other personal property does show "who owns it." But, as I laid out, "the law" refers to who has "title to" it. And I've provided the legal definition of "title to." And "the law" goes on to described "transfer" of "title to." And has the catch-all phrase "any other transfer." Perhaps if such language were in the laws that govern auto registration, then we'd have the same "problem" there.

Hey... I'm not arguing for anyone who borrows a handgun from a friend and open carries it to have to do anything but open carry it. I'm just offering what I believe the "yahoos" will try to jam down the throat of anyone "caught" in that situation. I'm of the firm belief, as someone previously posted, that this registration scheme is the biggest bowl of dog **** ever served up.
 
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