Open Carry Saves Concealed Carry

[Silvertongue]

Now, several tons of people have said that open carry is stupid.

They invariably say that they prefer to conceal their guns. "You'll get shot first," "You'll turn people away from guns," "I still wet the bed." Various things.

What they don't seem to realize is that, if everybody in the nation stopped openly carrying tomorrow, the Bloomberg-Funded Everyclown for Moms Demanding Illegal Mayors would suddenly jump on the "concealed carry is evil" bandwagon with the Violence Policy Center.

 

[utbagpiper]

Now, several tons of people have said that open carry is stupid.

They invariably say that they prefer to conceal their guns. "You'll get shot first," "You'll turn people away from guns," "I still wet the bed." Various things.

What they don't seem to realize is that, if everybody in the nation stopped openly carrying tomorrow, the Bloomberg-Funded Everyclown for Moms Demanding Illegal Mayors would suddenly jump on the "concealed carry is evil" bandwagon with the Violence Policy Center.

Oh for the love of all that is decent and good do we need another thread on this?

First of all, where are hearing tons of people attacking OC except perhaps in reaction to a few really stupid and even illegal events like happened in Washington that really have no more to do with OC than does yelling "FIRE!" falsely in a crowded theater have to do with freedom of speech?

Secondly, I think most all here recognize the various benefits of OCing including drawing a certain amount of enemy fire. The same is true for those who like military-style rifle platforms. Indeed, all who carry for self defense are drawing a certain amount of fire for those who don't care about that but really like to be able to go hunting.

The key thing is that we should not be dividing gun owners. If a few CC-only folks want to attack OC, that is unfortunate. But we should know better. Much good work has been done by those who have worked to expand who can get permits and where they are valid. Much good work has been done by those who insist on carrying without getting a permit. Let's stop trying to divide ourselves based on our favored carry method (of the day). We have responsible, law abiding gun owners, and we have criminals and morons

No further distinction is needed, please.

Charles

 

[WalkingWolf]

He clearly was NOT attacking CC. He was making a factual statement regarding OC, this is a OC site after all. The fact is big name CC people attack OC, even the NRA has attacked OC. Nobody should have to keep quit about the benefits of OC on a OC site. No matter how many times it is brought up.

 

[utbagpiper]

He clearly was NOT attacking CC. He was making a factual statement regarding OC, this is a OC site after all. The fact is big name CC people attack OC, even the NRA has attacked OC. Nobody should have to keep quit about the benefits of OC on a OC site. No matter how many times it is brought up.

The NRA has also attacked CC, and class III items, and the real intent of the 2nd amendment. The NRA does some great work and I don't intend to bash them. But their chosen tactics have concerned a lot of folks for a long time which is why so many other national and State level organizations exist.

And if we claim that one benefit of OC is to draw some fire from our brethren fighting for CC, then a little friendly fire from allies when they need to appear more moderate should be a burden we can bear with pride as part of our contribution to the overall fight.

I and the organization in which I work are quite often referred to as the dogs to be unleashed when the legislature won't play nicely with the more "moderate" organizations. It is a fine and honorable role to play. Good cop, bad cop works sometimes. (None of which should suggest we are anything but polite to a fault when interacting with legislators.) I and the heads of other groups in Utah get along swimmingly. Sometimes we disagree. We still get along fine.

I spend time on a CC site for Utah. There is not the least angst towards OC. Indeed, since any problems with OC have become so rare in the last 5 or 10 years, a lot of the traffic on that CC site is arranging for OC dinners or other meets.

Our chosen method of carry should not divide us.

I'll guess I'll sit back and see how much "discussion" one can have on this topic for the 3rd time in a week.

Charles

 

[WalkingWolf]

The NRA has also attacked CC, and class III items, and the real intent of the 2nd amendment. The NRA does some great work and I don't intend to bash them. But their chosen tactics have concerned a lot of folks for a long time which is why so many other national and State level organizations exist.

And if we claim that one benefit of OC is to draw some fire from our brethren fighting for CC, then a little friendly fire from allies when they need to appear more moderate should be a burden we can bear with pride as part of our contribution to the overall fight.

I and the organization in which I work are quite often referred to as the dogs to be unleashed when the legislature won't play nicely with the more "moderate" organizations. It is a fine and honorable role to play. Good cop, bad cop works sometimes. (None of which should suggest we are anything but polite to a fault when interacting with legislators.) I and the heads of other groups in Utah get along swimmingly. Sometimes we disagree. We still get along fine.

I spend time on a CC site for Utah. There is not the least angst towards OC. Indeed, since any problems with OC have become so rare in the last 5 or 10 years, a lot of the traffic on that CC site is arranging for OC dinners or other meets.

Our chosen method of carry should not divide us.

I'll guess I'll sit back and see how much "discussion" one can have on this topic for the 3rd time in a week.

Charles

That is not the problem, the problem is your over sensitive tirades towards anybody that wants to discuss the benefits of OC. YOU somehow think that is not fitting for a OC site, and use condescending to belittle the posters who do wish to discuss it. You can stop beating your own drum anytime now, I don't think it is winning you any fans. Stick to the purpose of this site instead of trying to be the hero.

 

[utbagpiper]

That is not the problem, the problem is your over sensitive tirades towards anybody that wants to discuss the benefits of OC. YOU somehow think that is not fitting for a OC site, and use condescending to belittle the posters who do wish to discuss it. You can stop beating your own drum anytime now, I don't think it is winning you any fans. Stick to the purpose of this site instead of trying to be the hero.

I believe your post is crossing the line from reasoned debate and civil disagreement into needless incivility on a personal level. Will you please consider whether that is really how you wish to engage? I think we can express ourselves without being personally disagreeable.

I think some folks are letting their personal hostility toward CC color their language and are no less divisive and damaging to the RKBA community than anything we see coming from this supposed huge chorus of anti-OC gun folks. The benefits of OC are a fine topic. Belittling CC or any other legal, safe manner of carry is not productive.

Charles

 

[WalkingWolf]

Oh for the love of all that is decent and good do we need another thread on this?

First of all, where are hearing tons of people attacking OC except perhaps in reaction to a few really stupid and even illegal events like happened in Washington that really have no more to do with OC than does yelling "FIRE!" falsely in a crowded theater have to do with freedom of speech?

Secondly, I think most all here recognize the various benefits of OCing including drawing a certain amount of enemy fire. The same is true for those who like military-style rifle platforms. Indeed, all who carry for self defense are drawing a certain amount of fire for those who don't care about that but really like to be able to go hunting.

The key thing is that we should not be dividing gun owners. If a few CC-only folks want to attack OC, that is unfortunate. But we should know better. Much good work has been done by those who have worked to expand who can get permits and where they are valid. Much good work has been done by those who insist on carrying without getting a permit. Let's stop trying to divide ourselves based on our favored carry method (of the day). We have responsible, law abiding gun owners, and we have criminals and morons

No further distinction is needed, please.

Charles

Have you not read your own post? It was a condescending tirade towards the OP. YOU owe him an apology.

 

[utbagpiper]

Have you not read your own post? It was a condescending tirade towards the OP. YOU owe him an apology.

Now who is trying to be the hero, or overly sensitive?

Besides, we all know nobody reads my walls of text anyway, right?

If the OP feels he needs an apology he may explain the particulars to me and ask me himself.

Now, can you and I avoid getting crossways so quickly after learning to be civil with each other?

Remember, civility doesn't require agreement. Indeed, it is quite difficult to be impolite while in agreement. Real civility is demonstrated when we can disagree without getting personal.

You believe the 2nd amendment doesn't protect any right to carry a gun discretely. I believe it does protect such a right. Am I your opponent because I believe the 2nd amendment provides more protections than you do?

Are you unhappy with me because I will voice my opinion that dividing the RKBA community by OCer, CCers, those who carry for self defense, hunters (Fudds is the derogatory term some folks use, I understand), collectors, Class-III owners, and others is counterproductive? We've got plenty of enemies who are happy to pick us off one group at a time. They did so through the 1930s, during the 60s and 70s, and then the big one in the 90s that finally woke us up and reminded us of something written so long ago, that "we can either hang together or we shall surely hang separately."

Are we so anxious to look for enemies, so eager for a verbal fight that we'll pick it among our own over a 5% disagreement rather than saving our energy for our real opponents? A good healthy debate can sharpen our arguments. It can enrich and entertain. Being angry with me? For what, exactly?

Come on, let's get along even if I am too verbose and even if you do take too narrow a view of what the 2nd amendment protects.

Charles

 

[WalkingWolf]

Now who is trying to be the hero, or overly sensitive?

Besides, we all know nobody reads my walls of text anyway, right?

If the OP feels he needs an apology he may explain the particulars to me and ask me himself.

Now, can you and I avoid getting crossways so quickly after learning to be civil with each other?

Remember, civility doesn't require agreement. Indeed, it is quite difficult to be impolite while in agreement. Real civility is demonstrated when we can disagree without getting personal.

You believe the 2nd amendment doesn't protect any right to carry a gun discretely. I believe it does protect such a right. Am I your opponent because I believe the 2nd amendment provides more protections than you do?

Are you unhappy with me because I will voice my opinion that dividing the RKBA community by OCer, CCers, those who carry for self defense, hunters (Fudds is the derogatory term some folks use, I understand), collectors, Class-III owners, and others is counterproductive? We've got plenty of enemies who are happy to pick us off one group at a time. They did so through the 1930s, during the 60s and 70s, and then the big one in the 90s that finally woke us up and reminded us of something written so long ago, that "we can either hang together or we shall surely hang separately."

Are we so anxious to look for enemies, so eager for a verbal fight that we'll pick it among our own over a 5% disagreement rather than saving our energy for our real opponents? A good healthy debate can sharpen our arguments. It can enrich and entertain. Being angry with me? For what, exactly?

Come on, let's get along even if I am too verbose and even if you do take too narrow a view of what the 2nd amendment protects.

Charles

I reacted to your attack on the OP, nothing more. None of your above has to do with his OP, and his intended purpose of this thread. YOU are way off topic here trying to intimidate an OP.

 

[Silvertongue]

If the OP feels he needs an apology he may explain the particulars to me and ask me himself.

I don't think I need an apology. I think you need a hug.

 

[WalkingWolf]

I don't think I need an apology. I think you need a hug.

LOL! You have my blessing, I am not in the hug group, in fact I avoid huggers. They spread germs.

 

[Silvertongue]

LOL! You have my blessing, I am not in the hug group, in fact I avoid huggers. They spread germs.

Additionally, my main point was derived from my reaction to James Yeagerfromtacticalresponsethanksforwatching, The Patriot Nurse, and IraqVeteran8888 all saying some variation of "open carry is stupid." These YouTubers are the ones attacking OC.

Cap that off with the man at a Walmart tackling another man for printing, and my case is resting like Elvis on a toilet.

 

[utbagpiper]

Additionally, my main point was derived from my reaction to James Yeagerfromtacticalresponsethanksforwatching, The Patriot Nurse, and IraqVeteran8888 all saying some variation of "open carry is stupid." These YouTubers are the ones attacking OC.

Cap that off with the man at a Walmart tackling another man for printing, and my case is resting like Elvis on a toilet.

I think the reason a few self-proclaimed experts post that crap on YouTube is because they get eaten alive in any discussion group where they have to actually defend their position.

As for the Walmart position, I suspect the assailant is some combination of anti-gun and racist. I doubt the method of carry had anything to do with his assault other than he managed to see a gun on someone not in uniform.

Charle

 

[WalkingWolf]

Additionally, my main point was derived from my reaction to James Yeagerfromtacticalresponsethanksforwatching, The Patriot Nurse, and IraqVeteran8888 all saying some variation of "open carry is stupid." These YouTubers are the ones attacking OC.

Cap that off with the man at a Walmart tackling another man for printing, and my case is resting like Elvis on a toilet.

Ohh you won't get any argument from me on that. The fact is~~~promoting open carry does not diss conceal carry, plus this is a OC site. It is also true the attention that OC has been getting by the deranged hoplophobes is taking attention off of CC. It is not just the ones you mentioned above, some so called respected names such as Rob Pincus, and Massad Ayboob have put down OC as well. Plus the tirade toward Open Carry Texas by NRA, which they had to apologize for.

 

[utbagpiper]

I reacted to your attack on the OP, nothing more. None of your above has to do with his OP, and his intended purpose of this thread. YOU are way off topic here trying to intimidate an OP.

I'm neither trying nor succeeding in intimidating the OP as evidenced by his subsequent posts. In the past on this forum I've been admonished against trying to read minds or otherwise divine others' motives. And I don't think you need to react more strongly than has the seeming object of my attack. Enough said.

I don't think I need an apology. I think you need a hug.

I'm both straight and secure enough to take a hug when offered.

And I do apologize if I came off too harsh. Several recent posts the last couple of days have seemed like thinly veiled or even overt attacks on CC which I find no better than attacks on OC and when coming from those who condemn attacks on OC (you're not one of them, Silvertongue), I find the hypocrisy quite annoying.

All the best.

Charles

 

[utbagpiper]

plus this is a OC site.

Do let us all remember that next time someone acts as if everyone here has some obligation to support anarchy or even libertarianism.

Plus the tirade toward Open Carry Texas by NRA, which they had to apologize for.

And now even OCT is having to deal with the antics of some moron who doesn't quite understand the line between vigorous advocacy and being a jack hat toward elected officials. They won't issue a big press release, but I'd bet dollars to donuts that they are making very clear to legislators he isn't one of their guys.

Every group has to define itself or else someone else, often those hostile to it, will define it for them. I'm no NRA apologist, dropped my membership 2 decades ago. But I don't think their conduct "out there" needs to have too much influence on this site.

Charles