One shot with a .22, that's pretty impressive shot placement......

[user]

I used to know an appellate attorney out in the Southwest somewhere, Erich something, who made up this little oft-quoted aphorism that I liked. He said,

Shot placement is king; adequate penetration is queen; everything else is angels dancing on the heads of pins.

I tell people that effectiveness is all that counts, and that, as a general rule, a .38 special or a 9mm will do just fine, and anything bigger will be more than necessary (and thus wasting energy in flash, bang, and recoil). Either of those cartridges from a reputable manufacturer will have enough kinetic energy at fifty yards to crush human bone, and thus either will work just fine at normal defensive range. And neither requires consultation of trajectory tables to be able to intercept a moving target, as does the .45 ACP.:lol:

If the subject of this thread had a S&W J frame revolver or a Kahr PM9, I suspect the results would have been more predictable. And either would have been just as easy to carry as what she had, and probably more reliable. The reason this story is newsworthy and has engendered so much discussion is that the results were not predictable - what she did was effective, but it's kind of surprising, and lucky for her, that it was effective.

 

[okboomer]

I like that one :banana: Stolen in the best form of admiration

 

[BillHoo]

I think that if this were the insane meth-head scenario, the .22 wouldn't be too effective.

But I challenge any naysayer on the effectiveness of a 22 for SD to stand and let me take shot at them from across the room. I'll even let them bring a knife!

This does not apply to the certifiably insane - all bets are off for crazy people!

But a robber, even a desperate one is not going to hang around after being shot once with a .22

 

[carry for myself]

I think that if this were the insane meth-head scenario, the .22 wouldn't be too effective.

But I challenge any naysayer on the effectiveness of a 22 for SD to stand and let me take shot at them from across the room. I'll even let them bring a knife!

This does not apply to the certifiably insane - all bets are off for crazy people!

But a robber, even a desperate one is not going to hang around after being shot once with a .22

but he WILL hang around after being shot with a .500 S&W mag out of a 3" ruger alaskan

 

[slowfiveoh]

I have made the argument repeatedly, with the experience to back it up, that shot placement is a necessity in combat and self-defense, and that the dorks obsessed with round size were clearly of the "compensating" type.

We all love guns, and we all appreciate the firm kick of a healthy, large caliber round, but all of that testosterone laden bravado means jack crap without the ability to put it on target every time its needed.


Massive kudos to this woman. She is indeed a modern day hero!

 

[Michigander]

I personally knew two men who would beg to differ. One's 6 feet underground with a .22 hole in the back of his head and the other has about 13 years left on his sentence. I consider my own research done.

of course, I realize that, as far as you're concerned, I'm just another guy on the internet.

So you found one guy who died, another guy who didn't, discuss nothing else, and this is supposed to be in objection to what I said? Did I miss something?

 

[carry for myself]

So you found one guy who died, another guy who didn't, discuss nothing else, and this is supposed to be in objection to what I said? Did I miss something?

think he means he knew 2 guys. one killed the other with a .22, proving it is an effective round, and the other guy is dead so he cant comment on the matter but his current condition speaks for itself

 

[oak1971]

The gun you have is better than the gun you wish you had. A person who is comfortable and accurate with a .22 is likely to have a better outcome than someone who cannot deal with the recoil of larger calibers.

 

[Aknazer]

I have made the argument repeatedly, with the experience to back it up, that shot placement is a necessity in combat and self-defense, and that the dorks obsessed with round size were clearly of the "compensating" type.

We all love guns, and we all appreciate the firm kick of a healthy, large caliber round, but all of that testosterone laden bravado means jack crap without the ability to put it on target every time its needed.


Massive kudos to this woman. She is indeed a modern day hero!

Of course shot placement matters, but so does caliber. If it didn't then you could say that a blowgun could be an effective caliber (I know they don't make any calibers that size, but it's to prove a point). Simply put a larger caliber means more damage and thus is more likely to actually stop the attacker in less time. This is of course assuming that both shots hit in the exact same spot. This also means that one can hit a bit off from what be a "kill" or "stopping" point of a smaller caliber and still get the desired effect. This doesn't mean that a smaller caliber can't be effective, simply that a larger caliber gives you more margine for error.

Again, this assumes that one has roughly the same accuracy with both calibers. One shouldn't try to use a caliber that they can't reasonably shoot simply because the caliber is larger.

 

[Dahwg]

Missing from the debate is the concept of firepower as enhanced by magazine capacity. If I can get three rounds in the BG Mozambique style because of low-recoil and rapid follow up from my compact 9mm pistol, and still have plenty of ammo left to quickly share the favor with four more of his closest thuggish friends, I'd say I win the caliber war and by extension the Internets because you just got shanked by Thugly's buddies because you couldn't get a new mag in your 7 round 1911, and don't spin the one shot knockdown power of the .45 myth. PS I'm not saying that I don't like the .45 (though I don't like .40 - just personal preference) I'm just pointing out the stupidity of the caliber wars- especially when discussing modern service caliber SD ammo.

 

[Daylen]

This news story is obviously a made-up fabrication, because everyone KNOWS that the .22 is not an effective self-defense round....

<sarcasm OFF>


Goes to show, what I've been saying all along is 100% true.

All the "caliber queens" can kiss this woman's ass--it's ALL about shot placement...

At the risk of derailing this thread I'll bite.

Yes a .22 can be effective as seen here and by the few hunters who take large game such as deer with a well placed shot to the head. However, for the same reason dangerous game hunters use hugely powerful cartridges, to quickly take down the target. Using a powerful cartridge is like an insurance policy, just in case you miss, under probably highly unideal conditions, the target will still be stopped. As much as you like to say its about shot placement, saying and doing are very different and if using a larger caliber makes the end goal (stopping the target quickly) easier then its a good idea. Second 22lr is a rimfire and thus unreliable cartridge when compared to center fire defense cartridges; thus making the .22 an undesirable cartridge when compared with other defense cartridges. However, if the choice is between a .22 and harsh language I'll take the .22 every time; if I can get a choice of .22 and 25 acp the more reliable acp is an easy grab for the pocket pistol. Finally, if anyone who advocates using more potent cartridges should kiss someones rump then I expect you haven't heard that just about every professional gunslinger (militarys) uses far larger than a .22 and probably for the reasons I've said above.

I would feel a bit silly however if she used a 5.7x28 since that would come out of a .22 caliber pistol.

 

[Aknazer]

Even if it was a 5.7x28 there is still more lead and and power in that bullet than a .22lr. After all, a 5.56x42 is a .223 caliber but is obviously more powerful than a .22lr even though caliber size it isn't much different.

But yes, I agree with Daylan in that a bigger round is insurance to make sure you get your desired effect in a stressful situation.

 

[slowfiveoh]

Even if it was a 5.7x28 there is still more lead and and power in that bullet than a .22lr. After all, a 5.56x42 is a .223 caliber but is obviously more powerful than a .22lr even though caliber size it isn't much different.

But yes, I agree with Daylan in that a bigger round is insurance to make sure you get your desired effect in a stressful situation.

Ever have to use your firearm defensively?

Do you know what the KE difference is between a larger, slow round vs a smaller, significantly faster one?



Also, 5.56x42 would be roughly .224


If the rounds recoil is sufficient enough to make repeat engagements fatiguing or exhaustive, then it is not worth it. This is especially true in combat. For self defense, I would say to carry the largest caliber you can repeatedly fire at the range comfortably while keeping it point target.

If you are big ogre looking oaf with watermelon sized hands, then this may mean a .500 is a reasonable carry for you.
If you are a dainty thing, then this may mean a .22/.380/9mm

Somewhere inbetween is where you get your .38/.40/.44/.45, not necessarily in that order.

 

[MilProGuy]

Thanks for sharing this story.

Justice has once again been meted out to another dirtbag.

Shot placement RULES!

 

[cobaltmarine]

As much of a trajedy that one person had to take anothers life, It is an example of the world we live in and how much having a means of defending ourselves is paramount no matter who you are or what you do.

 

[Brass Magnet]

[snip]

Do you know what the KE difference is between a larger, slow round vs a smaller, significantly faster one?[/snip]

E=0.5 Mass X Velocity ^2

I think what slowfiveoh is getting at is that Mass is halved and Velocity is squared. Velocity is more important for kinetic energy.

I've killed more deer with one shot out of my .22 caliber rifle than most ever have and many of the critters were shot were in the chest. Of course, my 50gr .224 caliber bullets are moving at 4,000 Fps. Hydrostatic shock is a biatch for thin skinned game.

Now, if you really want to get technical you are going to have to know the tensile strength of whatever you are penetrating with the bullet and you'll have to plug that in with kinetic energy and the frontal surface area of the unexpanded and expanded bullet. This will help you figure out how much energy is actually imparted to the target. If the bullet goes through, any energy after that is wasted. Even all of that figuring is basic and you'd have to get much more into some higher maths to really be accurate though.

 

[Oramac]

A .22 in the pocket beats a .45 thats home on the dresser.... any day.

Exactly what I was going to say. We can argue caliber all day, but in the end, if your only option is .22 then you carry a .22 and, clearly, can live with it.

 

[Oramac]

E=0.5 Mass X Velocity ^2

It's been a while since my physics class, why is mass halved?

 

[Daylen]

It's been a while since my physics class, why is mass halved?

Its an integral relationship. When integrating V it goes to (1/2)V^2.

 

[Daylen]

Even if it was a 5.7x28 there is still more lead and and power in that bullet than a .22lr. After all, a 5.56x42 is a .223 caliber but is obviously more powerful than a .22lr even though caliber size it isn't much different.

But yes, I agree with Daylan in that a bigger round is insurance to make sure you get your desired effect in a stressful situation.

.2244 caliber actually... but after it comes out the .22 cal barrel they're all the same in diameter. Sorry for picking nits.