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OC-ing in Arizona

S&W357mag

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 8, 2013
Messages
14
Location
Arizona
Having been a resident of Az. for many years, I'm a big proponent of the right to carry as we so please, and without having to ask any government entity for their approval. However, I think it's advisable to consider all elements of safety and security, disadvantages and advantages of either CC or OC, to which I would like to address.

I've carried OC in Az. and New Mexico since about 1972 without incident, and up until about 8 years ago I never gave it much thought regarding firearm retention, would someone actually try to take a gun out of someone else's holster? The short answer is Yes, it can and does happen.

I was standing in line at a convenience store waiting to pay for my merchandise. This young thug, yes, I profiled him prior to the incident, kept staring at me. I figured he was just eye balling me because I was wearing a plainly visible S&W M66 snubby. I tried to keep my eye's on him, but because this store had two separate lines, I was also having to divide my attention between him and the other couple shady looking characters in front of and behind me. When the moment was right, or while my attention was momentarily distracted, he grabbed the grip of my gun, yanked on it a couple of times whilke trying to unsnap it. I was actually some what frozen for a second, I think I was in a state of disbelief as well surprised that this was actually occurring. I did respond by coming down hard on his wrist with my elbow, thus breaking his hold. At that instant he threw his hands up, stating i'm just playing dog, I'm just playing. I immediately stepped back to give myself some distance between us, already had my hand on the gun, then told him he almost got himself shot. He complied, I paid for my merchandise, end of story.

However, I learned a lot about carrying that day, especially regarding OC-ing. First off, I really appreciated the fact that I was wearing a decent retention holster. Despite the fact that he was trying to unsnap it in that second or two, he was unable to do so because he didn't understand how the retention strap functions, thank God. This said, I think it's safe to say that wearing a good retention holster is key when OC-ing, as is situational awareness. I give myself an "A" for picking a good holster, but an "F" for my lacking awareness on that day. BTW, the holster is an Uncle Mike's.

I have also looked back on how I responded post incident, and I think it would have been very appropriate to have dialed "911", rather than letting or rather ordering him to leave.

S&W
 

solus

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2013
Messages
8,415
Location
here nc
glad you had a positive outcome to what could have gotten ugly and gone down hill quickly.

depending on how recent your event occurred, you might still consider filing a report and hopefully the store's surveillance is still on site. the prob is the thug now thinks they got away with something and will/might attempt the trick again and the next the carrier might be so quick/lucky.

again glad that your encounter only shook you up a bit but otherwise was without incident.

ipse
 
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cocked&locked

Member
Joined
Apr 14, 2011
Messages
136
Location
PA
Having been a resident of Az. for many years, I'm a big proponent of the right to carry as we so please, and without having to ask any government entity for their approval. However, I think it's advisable to consider all elements of safety and security, disadvantages and advantages of either CC or OC, to which I would like to address.

I've carried OC in Az. and New Mexico since about 1972 without incident, and up until about 8 years ago I never gave it much thought regarding firearm retention, would someone actually try to take a gun out of someone else's holster? The short answer is Yes, it can and does happen.

I was standing in line at a convenience store waiting to pay for my merchandise. This young thug, yes, I profiled him prior to the incident, kept staring at me. I figured he was just eye balling me because I was wearing a plainly visible S&W M66 snubby. I tried to keep my eye's on him, but because this store had two separate lines, I was also having to divide my attention between him and the other couple shady looking characters in front of and behind me. When the moment was right, or while my attention was momentarily distracted, he grabbed the grip of my gun, yanked on it a couple of times whilke trying to unsnap it. I was actually some what frozen for a second, I think I was in a state of disbelief as well surprised that this was actually occurring. I did respond by coming down hard on his wrist with my elbow, thus breaking his hold. At that instant he threw his hands up, stating i'm just playing dog, I'm just playing. I immediately stepped back to give myself some distance between us, already had my hand on the gun, then told him he almost got himself shot. He complied, I paid for my merchandise, end of story.

However, I learned a lot about carrying that day, especially regarding OC-ing. First off, I really appreciated the fact that I was wearing a decent retention holster. Despite the fact that he was trying to unsnap it in that second or two, he was unable to do so because he didn't understand how the retention strap functions, thank God. This said, I think it's safe to say that wearing a good retention holster is key when OC-ing, as is situational awareness. I give myself an "A" for picking a good holster, but an "F" for my lacking awareness on that day. BTW, the holster is an Uncle Mike's.

I have also looked back on how I responded post incident, and I think it would have been very appropriate to have dialed "911", rather than letting or rather ordering him to leave.

S&W
So let me get this straight, this thug commits a battery upon you, a potential attempted robbery and attempted murder upon you, and you just let him walk away?

At what point do you believe it is incumbent upon you to do something, after he takes your gun and shoots me?

Does his 'just playing' really explain or excuse his behavior? I don't let my children play with my gun; I don't let my wife play with my gun; hell, I don't even play with my own gun. Yet somehow you think it's appropriate for some unknown thug to 'play' with your gun? Was he 'serious' when he attempted the gun grab and then 'just playing' after he got caught? You don't know.

I was intrigued by this post because I'm gonna be in Az in a few weeks. I hope you do not represent the typical Az carrier, because what you did is just plain dangerous and irresponsible. I question if you should be carrying a gun. Give yourself an F also for the way you handled this after the fact.
 
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Va_Nemo

Member
Joined
May 1, 2016
Messages
624
Location
Lynchburg
Yeah, I think I would have drawn, ordered him to the ground and called the cops. I would also have insisted on charges and followed up with the prosecutor and did what I needed to do to be a pita for the cops/pros to make sure that was pushed through.

Now, its rather limited info you note but based on that limited info I would have to call it a bad reaction on your part.

Nemo
 

Va_Nemo

Member
Joined
May 1, 2016
Messages
624
Location
Lynchburg
He said she said. You lose.

You may swear charges, the prosecutor may bring charges, or not, based on evidence for a guilty verdict. Bupkus.
I have prosecuted and defended cases based on nothing more than conflicting testimony. In general it goes based on witness credibility. I would suspect the OP would have sufficient more credibility than the defendant to result in a guilty verdict.

Or put Def at sufficient risk for a plea to a reduced charge.

It would be possible that Def got a not guilty verdict. But I would pursue it anyway.

Any, case to share an opinions you have drafted (published appellate court only please) that make your assessment more valid than mine?

Nemo
 
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solus

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2013
Messages
8,415
Location
here nc
He said she said. You lose.

You may swear charges, the prosecutor may bring charges, or not, based on evidence for a guilty verdict. Bupkus.
no, the thug(s) (especially since the op didn't know who else was involved on the sidelines) is now in the 'system' in case of future events are attempted and they are caught.

ipse
 

F350

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2012
Messages
942
Location
The High Plains of Wyoming
I carry a CRKT M16-14ZSF which has double flippers in my left front pocket, the lower flipper can be used to open the blade on drawing by snagging in the pocket corner "wave style". If someone were to grab my sidearm my plan is to break the grip as OP did, spin counter-clockwise while drawing and commence slicing and dicing. If grabbed in a choke-hold and grab I'll draw and commence stabbing Mr Happy and the twins; with the femoral artery so close by I will also try and open that so I can watch the SOB rolling around on the floor kicking and screaming till he dies.

Jump to 1:00 mark to skip the BS

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lR5efZDJh-w
 

color of law

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Oct 7, 2007
Messages
5,037
Location
Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
I use to open carry in a leather holster; no retention. I have come to the conclusion that there are enough kooks out there including progressives that would attempt to grab your firearm. So, for over a year now I carry in a level 2 retention holster.
 

countryclubjoe

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2013
Messages
2,505
Location
nj
Having been a resident of Az. for many years, I'm a big proponent of the right to carry as we so please, and without having to ask any government entity for their approval. However, I think it's advisable to consider all elements of safety and security, disadvantages and advantages of either CC or OC, to which I would like to address.

I've carried OC in Az. and New Mexico since about 1972 without incident, and up until about 8 years ago I never gave it much thought regarding firearm retention, would someone actually try to take a gun out of someone else's holster? The short answer is Yes, it can and does happen.

I was standing in line at a convenience store waiting to pay for my merchandise. This young thug, yes, I profiled him prior to the incident, kept staring at me. I figured he was just eye balling me because I was wearing a plainly visible S&W M66 snubby. I tried to keep my eye's on him, but because this store had two separate lines, I was also having to divide my attention between him and the other couple shady looking characters in front of and behind me. When the moment was right, or while my attention was momentarily distracted, he grabbed the grip of my gun, yanked on it a couple of times whilke trying to unsnap it. I was actually some what frozen for a second, I think I was in a state of disbelief as well surprised that this was actually occurring. I did respond by coming down hard on his wrist with my elbow, thus breaking his hold. At that instant he threw his hands up, stating i'm just playing dog, I'm just playing. I immediately stepped back to give myself some distance between us, already had my hand on the gun, then told him he almost got himself shot. He complied, I paid for my merchandise, end of story.

However, I learned a lot about carrying that day, especially regarding OC-ing. First off, I really appreciated the fact that I was wearing a decent retention holster. Despite the fact that he was trying to unsnap it in that second or two, he was unable to do so because he didn't understand how the retention strap functions, thank God. This said, I think it's safe to say that wearing a good retention holster is key when OC-ing, as is situational awareness. I give myself an "A" for picking a good holster, but an "F" for my lacking awareness on that day. BTW, the holster is an Uncle Mike's.

I have also looked back on how I responded post incident, and I think it would have been very appropriate to have dialed "911", rather than letting or rather ordering him to leave.

S&W
Is attempted robbery a crime in Arizona?.. I would think yes,, charges should have been filed, in my humble opinion..
Regards
CCJ
 

BB62

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Aug 17, 2006
Messages
4,016
Location
Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Yeah, I think I would have drawn, ordered him to the ground and called the cops. I would also have insisted on charges and followed up with the prosecutor and did what I needed to do to be a pita for the cops/pros to make sure that was pushed through.

Now, its rather limited info you note but based on that limited info I would have to call it a bad reaction on your part.

Nemo
I agree entirely. Even if charges weren't pressed, there would be a record of the matter and the investigation (or lack thereof) by the police.

This is serious, serious stuff.
 

BB62

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Aug 17, 2006
Messages
4,016
Location
Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Having been a resident of Az. for many years, I'm a big proponent of the right to carry as we so please, and without having to ask any government entity for their approval. However, I think it's advisable to consider all elements of safety and security, disadvantages and advantages of either CC or OC, to which I would like to address. ...
Despite my criticism of your lack of action after the event you described, thank you sincerely for sharing your experience and the learning you took from it.
 

solus

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2013
Messages
8,415
Location
here nc
Yeah, I think I would have drawn, ordered him to the ground and called the cops. I would also have insisted on charges and followed up with the prosecutor and did what I needed to do to be a pita for the cops/pros to make sure that was pushed through.

Now, its rather limited info you note but based on that limited info I would have to call it a bad reaction on your part.

Nemo
much to my chagrin, out of the 50 states in this here grand union ~ NC is the only state which does not have citizens arrest statutes (15a-404) & in fact if a citizen points a firearm, in fun or loaded or not, at another citizen it is an arrestable offence (14-34) by the nice responding LEs. (15A-1340.23)

guess i better change out my hosters as CoL did...damn i had that extra $$$ rat-holed for another firearm.

ipse
 

cocked&locked

Member
Joined
Apr 14, 2011
Messages
136
Location
PA
much to my chagrin, out of the 50 states in this here grand union ~ NC is the only state which does not have citizens arrest statutes (15a-404) & in fact if a citizen points a firearm, in fun or loaded or not, at another citizen it is an arrestable offence (14-34) by the nice responding LEs. (15A-1340.23)

guess i better change out my hosters as CoL did...damn i had that extra $$$ rat-holed for another firearm.

ipse
Realizing that we are operating with a very limited fact pattern, I don't believe that drawing your gun under these circumstances would be a crime, even in NC. Actually shooting him is a different kettle of fish.

But your post raises another interesting point as to why this thug should not have been allowed to just walk away. By engaging in this 'stunt' he put the OP's liberty at risk unnecessarily. If the OP had somehow overreacted and shot the individual, he would be facing serious life-changing consequences. This thug was playing; he was playing with the OP's life, as well as his own. Stupid *******.
 
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Va_Nemo

Member
Joined
May 1, 2016
Messages
624
Location
Lynchburg
"Occifer, occifer, this guy tried to snatch my gun so I proned him at gun point!" "I did not!" "Did too." "Did not."

Who did the officer see commit a crime? Habeas corpus seems a slam dunk defense.
Based on the presented fact pattern I am confident there would have been sufficient other persons around who saw the interaction to give LEO enough info to make a fairly informed decision. If they do not make an arrest I would seek out info on appropriate magistrate and process that warrant myself for the cops to serve.

I also submit that sworn testimony of complainant would be sufficient proof of the body of the crime. Your slam dunk becomes a foul ball.

Nemo
 
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solus

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2013
Messages
8,415
Location
here nc
Realizing that we are operating with a very limited fact pattern, I don't believe that drawing your gun under these circumstances would be a crime, even in NC. Actually shooting him is a different kettle of fish.

But your post raises another interesting point as to why this thug should not have been allowed to just walk away. By engaging in this 'stunt' he put the OP's liberty at risk unnecessarily. If the OP had somehow overreacted and shot the individual, he would be facing serious life-changing consequences. This thug was playing; he was playing with the OP's life, as well as his own. Stupid *******.
and in the eyes of the beholder, the nice LE, citizen(s) in VA shouldn't have been charged w/brandishing, or a WA member living in Whatcom county should not have had a LE point a firearm at them or or...these are just some of the stories from the naked city

nawll i'll heed the statute and avoid any hint of judicial oversight even in the slightest.

as for the thug shooting the owner of the firearm, fraid the thug would/could/might have shot other innocents.

ipse
 

Va_Nemo

Member
Joined
May 1, 2016
Messages
624
Location
Lynchburg
The other persons were described as "shady looking characters," already impeached as witnesses.

All criminal cases are prosecuted in the name of the governmental authority that promulgates criminal statutes and enforces the police power of the state. Depending on your jurisdiction, you may swear a complaint but that does not guarantee an investigation.
My jurisdiction causes warrant issuance and arrest. From there cops take it and follow up generally as a SOP.

Seems to me you are analyzing outside your door.

Nemo
 
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cocked&locked

Member
Joined
Apr 14, 2011
Messages
136
Location
PA
and in the eyes of the beholder, the nice LE, citizen(s) in VA shouldn't have been charged w/brandishing, or a WA member living in Whatcom county should not have had a LE point a firearm at them or or...these are just some of the stories from the naked city

nawll i'll heed the statute and avoid any hint of judicial oversight even in the slightest.

as for the thug shooting the owner of the firearm, fraid the thug would/could/might have shot other innocents.

ipse
I said that I don't believe it is a crime. I do not pretend to know what a particular LE (or any individual) will do in any particular circumstance. I acknowledge that just because it is not a crime does not mean that you will not be arrested or charged.

But we cannot have an intellectually honest discussion if we assume that anything is possible. We have to assume that things will operate as they should.
 

cocked&locked

Member
Joined
Apr 14, 2011
Messages
136
Location
PA
In Virginia, if you are the victim of a crime you can file a petition for a citizen's complaint. What you do is you appear in front of a General District Court judge in the county where the crime was committed and you present the evidence of your crime.

If the judge agrees that there is sufficient evidence and he agrees that a law was broken then the judge orders that an arrest warrant be issued and the police will have to go and arrest the individual and he will be given a court date. Then the entire case is turned over to prosecution who will them make their decisions about how to handle the case.

Your evidence is corroboration by shady looking characters.
No, actually that is only a portion of the evidence. There is also the OP's own testimony and probably some video footage. In this day and age, establishments (especially those that cater to thugs, as this one appears to be) tend to have surveillance cameras around the checkout area where this incident occurred.
 
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cocked&locked

Member
Joined
Apr 14, 2011
Messages
136
Location
PA
The video will require a search warrant and the complainant doesn't even have his citizen's complaint, for which his say so will not be enough. Ya can't get there from here.
No, actually most videos in these situations are voluntarily turned over by the storeowner.

You keep getting your facts wrong!
 
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