More news on the mosque---you ain't gonna like it.

[wrightme]

My responses are in blue.

Just use the tags to separate his post from yours so you get quoted correctly.

That something is a right does not make it immune from criticism. Saying that another way: Just because doing something is a Right doesn't make it the right thing to do.

"Right thing to do" isn't relevant. That places the feelings of others above the Right.

We can hope for one of two things: This Imam decides to do the moral thing and respect the survivors of 9/11 and build the mosque elsewhere, or the mosque is built at Ground Zero and the myth that this Muslim is a moderate is totally busted.

First, you are again placing the feelings of others above the Right itself.
Second, you present a false dichotomy. It isn't "EITHER they won't build, OR it is another thing."
Building there does not prove "the myth that this Muslim is a moderate is totally busted."

 

[19Daniel91]

Yeah, and did anyone notice the construction date of the mosque is planned to be September 11, 2011--ten years after the 9/11 attacks?

And people think there's nothing wrong with this picture? :banghead:

They are deliberately RUBBING this mosque in our face as we sit back and debate whether or not it's right!

 

[eye95]

Just use the tags to separate his post from yours so you get quoted correctly.

"Right thing to do" isn't relevant. That places the feelings of others above the Right.

First, you are again placing the feelings of others above the Right itself.
Second, you present a false dichotomy. It isn't "EITHER they won't build, OR it is another thing."
Building there does not prove "the myth that this Muslim is a moderate is totally busted."

I am not placing anyone's feelings above anyone else's rights.

Please do not construct a strawman in place of my argument just because it is easier to tear apart.

I am advocating the exercise of Liberty for EVERYONE. I advocate for the rights of those who wish to protest the placement of the mosque in the hope the builders move it. EVERYONE recognizes that the mosque-builders have the same rights to build at that location as any other builder would--no less and no more.

Either argue with what I am actually saying or I will just move on.

 

[wrightme]

I am not placing anyone's feelings above anyone else's rights.

Please do not construct a strawman in place of my argument just because it is easier to tear apart.

I am advocating the exercise of Liberty for EVERYONE. I advocate for the rights of those who wish to protest the placement of the mosque in the hope the builders move it. EVERYONE recognizes that the mosque-builders have the same rights to build at that location as any other builder would--no less and no more.

Either argue with what I am actually saying or I will just move on.

You actually stated that "just because it is a Right does not make it right"
That IS placing the feelings of others above the Right itself.

Making that statement AND making the "right to build and a right to protest" statement are diametrically opposed. To hold BOTH of those views takes mental gymnastics.


I did not create any strawmen. I pointed out the incongruity in your actual words and statements. If those words and statements are not what you meant to state, you should reword them.

That something is a right does not make it immune from criticism.

True

Saying that another way: Just because doing something is a Right doesn't make it the right thing to do.

That does not "say that another way." the second statement you are making is another thing entirely than your first one.


Arguing on the one hand that doing something is a Right precludes the "doesn't make it the right thing to do."

I am advocating the exercise of Liberty for EVERYONE. I advocate for the rights of those who wish to protest the placement of the mosque in the hope the builders move it. EVERYONE recognizes that the mosque-builders have the same rights to build at that location as any other builder would--no less and no more.

This statement invalidates many of your other statements.......

 

[Tawnos]

Yeah, and did anyone notice the construction date of the mosque is planned to be September 11, 2011--ten years after the 9/11 attacks?

And people think there's nothing wrong with this picture? :banghead:

They are deliberately RUBBING this mosque in our face as we sit back and debate whether or not it's right!

AGAIN: what mosque?

Is a YMCA a church? I don't think so, and I see no reason this is even close to being a mosque (not that it would matter if it were, but dammit, at least argue on topic!).

 

[19Daniel91]

AGAIN: what mosque?

Is a YMCA a church? I don't think so, and I see no reason this is even close to being a mosque (not that it would matter if it were, but dammit, at least argue on topic!).

Oh, of course.

The "mosque" as I call it is simply just an Islamic community center with a culinary school, an auditorium, a pool, a basket ball court--and coincidentally--a place to pray.

As the location is already being used for the overflow crowds of the prayer services at the nearby "real" mosque.

 

[Tawnos]

Oh, of course.

The "mosque" as I call it is simply just an Islamic community center with a culinary school, an auditorium, a pool, a basket ball court--and coincidentally--a place to pray.

As the location is already being used for the overflow crowds of the prayer services at the nearby "real" mosque.

Yes, it is that simple. Much the same way a group of christians can use a YMCA to pray or have a bible study, why couldn't/shouldn't muslims be allowed the same courtesy in their community center? Is it really taht hard for you?

 

[simmonsjoe]

Oh, of course.

The "mosque" as I call it is simply just an Islamic community center with a culinary school, an auditorium, a pool, a basket ball court--and coincidentally--a place to pray.

As the location is already being used for the overflow crowds of the prayer services at the nearby "real" mosque.

Who are 'THEY'??

You still haven't shown us how this group is related to al Qaeda.

You refuse to even acknowledge that your discussing two different groups of people. I have proven in previous threads 3 times to you that nothing the terrorist claim is Islamic justification for their actions can be found in the Qu'ran. Therefor when you try and claim the Muslims in NYC are related to them you lose all credibility. All Americans - including Muslims- were victims of 9/11. Muslims co-existing in America are considered 'traitors' to the terrorist groups and are therefor hated by them. Your continuing to espouse the argument that this is some sort of flag-planting is ludicrous. It also makes you looks really bad, that you have chosen to ignore reality and continue to talk this same 'logic' with no justification left but hate.

Everyone should take heed. It is very important to note that the lies perpetuated by certain aspects of the media and haters, is the SAME lies perpetuated by extremest groups.
-----
As a side note, you don't have to pray, or even hold Jumah (friday service) in a Masjid(Mosque).(or indoors for that matter.) Oftentimes, places will have what is called a Musalid. This is just an area set aside and available for people to pray. One reason is because most Muslims pray in a manner that requires them to get on the floor, therefor the area is carpeted, very clean, and unfurnished. Another reason is because Muslims pray multiple times a day, preferably with others. (You can't just do that in your cubicle.)

 

[simmonsjoe]

Good heavens, Joe. We all know that. Eye95 and I were having a side discussion. It started with me commenting about the usefulness of a particular argumentative tactic, as compared to justification for terrorism.

Eye95 seems to think there is no American Imperialism, or nothing sufficiently similar to justify the label. I've discussed with him before and know his talent for staying attached to his existing ideas, so I think I'll let it end here. No point in getting into an argument about it.

My bad. I have Eye95 ignored for similar issues.

 

[eye95]

You actually stated that "just because it is a Right does not make it right"
That IS placing the feelings of others above the Right itself.

Making that statement AND making the "right to build and a right to protest" statement are diametrically opposed. To hold BOTH of those views takes mental gymnastics.


I did not create any strawmen. I pointed out the incongruity in your actual words and statements. If those words and statements are not what you meant to state, you should reword them.
True
That does not "say that another way." the second statement you are making is another thing entirely than your first one.


Arguing on the one hand that doing something is a Right precludes the "doesn't make it the right thing to do."
This statement invalidates many of your other statements.......

You seem to insist that my statements amount to placing feelings above rights. They do not.

Since you will not stop misrepresenting what I write, I see no point in discussing further with you. I expect, and normally get, better from you. This is disappointing. Moving on.

 

[Ruby]

Sorry if my comment confused you.



I was referring to the actual funding of the mosque, seeing how much our government loves the idea of its existence.

Just where do you think the money is coming from?!? Where does our government get it's money?!? (palms face, shakes head)

 

[simmonsjoe]

Just where do you think the money is coming from?!? Where does our government get it's money?!? (palms face, shakes head)

Thats funny. I already face-palmed for that one!

At least it's not coming out of my pocket.

*facepalm*

Not sure why they need our money with the rate their printing it at.

 

[19Daniel91]

Yes, it is that simple. Much the same way a group of christians can use a YMCA to pray or have a bible study, why couldn't/shouldn't muslims be allowed the same courtesy in their community center? Is it really taht hard for you?

There is no reason why they shouldn't be able to pray in their community center. Simply pointing out it serves as a mosque having a place of prayer and worship.

 

[19Daniel91]

Who are 'THEY'??

If you're referring to the folks building the mosque, that would be Soho Properties and the Cordoba Initiative.

You still haven't shown us how this group is related to al Qaeda.

I don't believe that was my intention?

You refuse to even acknowledge that your discussing two different groups of people. I have proven in previous threads 3 times to you that nothing the terrorist claim is Islamic justification for their actions can be found in the Qu'ran. Therefor when you try and claim the Muslims in NYC are related to them you lose all credibility. All Americans - including Muslims- were victims of 9/11. Muslims co-existing in America are considered 'traitors' to the terrorist groups and are therefor hated by them.

Refuse to acknowledge? On the first thread "Ground Zero Mosque" where this rollercoaster started, I made it quite clear I do understand the difference.

The obvious reason folks oppose it is because the thought it may actually be a flag in the ground to the radical Islamic extremists who want all infidels (Non-Muslims; Jews, Christians, Atheists, etc) dead. And seeing Islam is almost 25% of the world population, it makes people wonder how many extremists there are?

Don't want to step on anyone's toes here--I know a Muslim guy who comes out to work and does intense mechanical work on huge printing machines. This Muslim also was a United States Marine for many years. I'm a Christian, he's a Muslim, and we get along just fine. Just wanted to clear that up for the politically correct people who are screaming at the top of their lungs right now, "RACIST BIGOT!"

P.S. It's a religion.

Notice my use of the word "extremist" and how I work with a Muslim who I'm not worried about attacking me.

Your continuing to espouse the argument that this is some sort of flag-planting is ludicrous. It also makes you looks really bad, that you have chosen to ignore reality and continue to talk this same 'logic' with no justification left but hate.

Everyone should take heed. It is very important to note that the lies perpetuated by certain aspects of the media and haters, is the SAME lies perpetuated by extremest groups.

I think if anyone's expressing hate, it's coming from your own set of fingers. And maybe you just misunderstood my purpose. But I've already made it clear I can work with Muslims without being struck by Islamophobia.

As NRAMARINE made clear, the Muslims have built mosques after conquering territories in history as their flag. Along with his example, the Babri Mosque shows this as well. And it's facts like this that make me believe Park51 could be more than just a community center or a mosque.

And I would hope I'm wrong.

 

[19Daniel91]

Just where do you think the money is coming from?!? Where does our government get it's money?!? (palms face, shakes head)

So you're saying we the people are paying $100 million for this? Because as far as I know, that's not what tax-exempt means. That's tax-paid. If you know something I don't, please do explain.

 

[wrightme]

You seem to insist that my statements amount to placing feelings above rights. They do not.

Then you are blinded to the meaning of your own chosen words. More the pity. A closed mind gathers no knowledge. When you make the statement "just because it is a Right does not make it right," that is EXACTLY what you are doing. How can you not see this simply reality?

A Right is exactly that, a Right. Trying to judge it upon a metric of "does not make it right" relies on the feelings of others for measure. Without taking into account the feelings of others, it is simply a pithy statement with no meaning. Either you are making the pithy statement, or you are placing feelings of others above Rights. Which is it? It cannot be both in the same head without severe mental gymnastics, and a good dose of Morton's Demon. Toss in a bit of cognitive dissonance, and "voila!" you have your statement.

 

[NOTFORLONG]

Muslims are trying to invade and "troll" the usa. They need to be gassed exterminated and put in a oven.




I SAY NO TO THE VICTORY SHRINE IN NYC.

 

[simmonsjoe]

COMMENTS REMOVED BY MODERATOR: Hate speech

I'm Muslim. I'm American. I'd like to see you try.

 

[NOTFORLONG]

I'm Muslim. I'm American. I'd like to see you try.

You are the next shoebomber ft hood shooter and nyc attempted bomber.
Just admit you want sharia law don't lie.

 

[NOTFORLONG]

Ok lets start over, let's just say they build it..............then they find out its a jihadist training center....then what do we do? what do we say?