Mass Shootings and 'Holding' the Public

[Mainsail]

I'm curios to know if there is legal authority for the government (police) to hold citizens after a mass shooting similar to what happened in Ft Lauderdale. I'm very familiar with Terry and whens wheres whys the police can and cannot detain a citizen, but for big events like these I'm somewhat ignorant. From what I understand about the event in FL, the entire population of the airport were held for hours, bags searched, and IDs and passports may have been taken. People were forced to remain in a place, no food or bathrooms. This started a discussion about whether such actions were actually legal or if everyone just goes along with it because we all like to cooperate after such terrible events.

The police take the shooter down, or into custody, and need to be sure there are no other actors -vs- my right as a citizen to be about my business.

Say I'm in the airport or mall and some whackjob comes in shooting. The police come and put him down. I'm not involved and want to go home, but the police tell me I am not free to leave. By what authority am I being held? If I were to try to push past them would they, and could they, physically prevent me from doing so?

They do not have reasonable artulable suspicion to believe I am involved, so Terry would not apply, but could they rely on the idea that the crime scene was still 'active' and what is the definition of such, and who makes the call?

 

[solus]

just a thought provided for your reading pleasure...http://le.alcoda.org/publications/point_of_view/files/detaining_witnesses.pdf

quote:
There are essentially two kinds of detentions: (1) investigative, and (2) special needs. The most common, of course, is the investigative detention in which officers stop a person because they have reason to believe he committed a crime. A “special needs” or “suspicionless” detention, on the other hand, is justified by some legitimate law enforcement need other than the need to temporarily stop and question a suspect

If need outweighed intrusiveness, the detention is lawful. Accordingly, a detention of a witness ought to be upheld if the officers’ need to obtain information from the witness (or at least identify him) outweighed the intrusiveness of the detention.

The need for a detention
The strength of the need to detain a witness depends on four things: (1) the seriousness of the crime under investigation, (2) the nature of the information the witness can reasonably be expected to provide, (3) the level of proof that the witness can provide such information, and (4) whether there are any less intrusive methods of obtaining the same information. unqote

ipse

 

[davidmcbeth]

4th amendment seems pretty clear enough ... warrant needed, based upon PC ... its a limit on .govs .. which then wants to change the limits w/o changing the 4th amendment.

No PC = no detention

No warrant = no detention

That's what the 4th amendment says.

 

[countryclubjoe]

community caretaking trumps all

I must agree with old curmudgeon on this one.. Sad however true... Public safety seems to trump individual rights and slowly erodes personal liberties.. Think the Boston bombing some years back for a perfect example..

My .02

 

[Nascar24Glock]

I'd say part of it has to do with the fact that the people in there were probably still in shock and thus had little motivation to do anything but comply.

It would have been interesting to see what would have happened if one of those people had calmly asked one of the officers "Am I being detained?" If yes, "What is your reasonable articulable suspicion?" If not, "then am I free to go?" And if the officer refused, file a suit under Title USC §1983 for violating civil rights under color of law.

I'd really be interested to see the outcome of such a case.

 

[solus]

I found this from the U. Miss. Law Journal https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2583863 while examining the list of states with community caretaking exceptions to their warrant requirements.

Our Constitution may not be a living breathing document, but American jurisprudence does live and breath and 'run', so YOU better keep up. More CLEU units!

this article is an unpublished non-peer reviewed commentary written my a JD candidate and holds ABSOLUTELY no viable credence in anything...suitable for TPaper.

might reconsider retrieving your CLEU units...

ipse

 

[solus]

does not substatiate anything either...

ipse

 

[davidmcbeth]

community caretaking trumps all

I coughed up my coffee reading this one. .govs have no duty to protect any specific 2nd class citizen like you and me. You have the right to defend yourself and you cannot be required to relinquish this right.

I would state that the right to defend yourself would include the right to leave a dangerous area..or what you think is a dangerous area.

Luckily we have citizens arrest authority in my state ... kidnapping is a serious offense.

 

[countryclubjoe]

I coughed up my coffee reading this one. .govs have no duty to protect any specific 2nd class citizen like you and me. You have the right to defend yourself and you cannot be required to relinquish this right.

I would state that the right to defend yourself would include the right to leave a dangerous area..or what you think is a dangerous area.

Luckily we have citizens arrest authority in my state ... kidnapping is a serious offense.

David, you are missing the point,, the government is violating rights for YOUR SAFETY... LOL

My .02

 

[davidmcbeth]

David, you are missing the point,, the government is violating rights for YOUR SAFETY... LOL

My .02

Thanks CCJ ! I feeeel safer now.

 

[Fallschirjmäger]

Anybody remember the bank robbery in Aurora, Colorado a few years ago when the cops shut down an intersection and seized a dozen or so citizens at gun point to hopefully apprehend some bank robbers with a few measly bucks?

 

[davidmcbeth]

Anybody remember the bank robbery in Aurora, Colorado a few years ago when the cops shut down an intersection and seized a dozen or so citizens at gun point to hopefully apprehend some bank robbers with a few measly bucks?

Pepperidge Farm remembers .... (me too).

Some .govs think that they can do anything....

 

[Nascar24Glock]

I found this from the U. Miss. Law Journal https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2583863 while examining the list of states with community caretaking exceptions to their warrant requirements.

Our Constitution may not be a living breathing document, but American jurisprudence does live and breath and 'run', so YOU better keep up. More CLEU units!

Haha, I'm not a lawyer. I'm just a CPA.

But if indeed such an exception exists in a given state, then I think the residents of any such state need to lobby the legislature to ban said practice.

 

[Fallschirjmäger]

Pepperidge Farm remembers .... (me too).

Some .govs think that they can do anything....

Guess what municipal sub unit is paying out almost a half million dollars? First two guesses don't count