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LEO issues

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Dave_pro2a

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Yes, I found DEANIMATOR to be insightful, polite, cordial, and intelligent in his dialog. That would give me the idea that he is probably that way in person.

Jesus H Christ. Are you for real or just a troll.

ronmanci said:
I was asking the gentleman who's remarks I agreed with.

Of course you think that guy is "insightful, polite, cordial, intelligent" etc, after all YOU AGREE with him. But low and behold, if someone doesn't agree with you, they are rude, annoying, idiotic, wrong, etc.

Yeah, no blind biases there.
 

BigRed

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wow! lots of strong opinions here.lol. I don't get all the personal attacks on here. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I just wanted to know if the gist i was getting on these forums was a correct one. Now i don't know what to think :eek:
 

dizzle2

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Yes, I found DEANIMATOR to be insightful, polite, cordial, and intelligent in his dialog. That would give me the idea that he is probably that way in person.
Wow, NY's Finest. Yet he doesn't seem to be able to stick to anything. your all over the place man!
 

dizzle2

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wow! lots of strong opinions here.lol. I don't get all the personal attacks on here. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I just wanted to know if the gist i was getting on these forums was a correct one. Now i don't know what to think :eek:

Well, from what I have read on these forums. a lot of folks say, "im not anti-cop i am just pro-citizen." Yeah, like that makes any sense what so ever. Most people on here would much rather stay clear of cops. why are you so concerned about how people feel towards cops anyways?
 
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BigRed

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Well, from what I have read on these forums. a lot of folks say, "im not anti-cop i am just pro-citizen." Yeah, like that makes any sense what so ever. Most people on here would much rather stay clear of cops. why are you so concerned about how people feel towards cops anyways?
Oh, I am a police explorer and i just want to know how people would treat me if i ever did become a cop.
 

dizzle2

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Oh, I am a police explorer and i just want to know how people would treat me if i ever did become a cop.

lol. how old do you have to be on these forums....all i can say is cop=bad idea on these forums. you are gunna have people attacking you on here in no time.hahaha
 

BigRed

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lol. how old do you have to be on these forums....all i can say is cop=bad idea on these forums. you are gunna have people attacking you on here in no time.hahaha

um...i hope under 18.lol. I don't think people will attack me. It seems that they just don't like cops that don't know the laws that they sworn to protect. and then the cops make up laws because they don't know the actual laws....am i right?
 

Dave_pro2a

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Oh, I am a police explorer and i just want to know how people would treat me if i ever did become a cop.

Called it. 21 max, probably a teenager.

Generally speaking, they will treat you as you treat them.

Your job will be adversarial in nature, and there are consequences that flow from that -- and major personal tolls.
 
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Dave_pro2a

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um...i hope under 18.lol. I don't think people will attack me. It seems that they just don't like cops that don't know the laws that they sworn to protect. and then the cops make up laws because they don't know the actual laws....am i right?

You should do a lot of reading on this forum.

You're dealing with many people here who are compelled to record their interactions with police, because of a widespread pattern of illegal actions on the part of police. That's enough to leave a person jaded.

Read the law on OC. Then read some first hand accounts of OCers with LEO. Listen to some of the recordings. Watch some of the video. Form your own opinions.
 

Deanimator

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Oh, I am a police explorer and i just want to know how people would treat me if i ever did become a cop.
That depends largely upon how you conduct yourself.

If you conduct yourself in such a way that people believe:
  • You are bound by the same laws you enforce
  • Are no better than any other law abiding citizen
  • Your race, ethnicity or religion don't make you better than anyone else
You will be treated with respect by the majority of law abiding citizens. Nobody much cares what NON-law abiding citizens think.


If you conduct yourself in such a way that people believe:
  • You want to enforce the law but not OBEY it
  • You are better than other law abiding citizens
  • You are superior to people of different races, ethnicities or religions
People will view you as a member of a hostile army of occupation and rightly treat you as such. You might want to look at the Chicago and New Orleans PDs to see what happens in this case. The Philadelphia PD seems headed in the same direction.

Nobody owes you respect merely because you wear a badge. They owe you respect based on the character you show while wearing it.

Until I know that you are a trustworthy person of decent character, I will treat you the way I treat any stranger of unknown and unknowable character, with polite formality but a distinct lack of trust. Experience and observation tell me I'd be a fool to do otherwise.
 

BigRed

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Called it. 21 max, probably a teenager.

Generally speaking, they will treat you as you treat them.

Your job will be adversarial in nature, and there are consequences that flow from that -- and major personal tolls.

lol. im 17 actually.
 

BigRed

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You should do a lot of reading on this forum.

You're dealing with many people here who are compelled to record their interactions with police, because of a widespread pattern of illegal actions on the part of police. That's enough to leave a person jaded.

Read the law on OC. Then read some first hand accounts of OCers with LEO. Listen to some of the recordings. Watch some of the video. Form your own opinions.

I have read a ton on the OC laws. I think every law abiding citizen should have a gun. And I think more cops need to be educated on gun crime and who are the ones actually committing the crime, cause i know it is not the law abiding OC'ers:D
 

FMCDH

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um...i hope under 18.lol. I don't think people will attack me. It seems that they just don't like cops that don't know the laws that they sworn to protect. and then the cops make up laws because they don't know the actual laws....am i right?

That is a side of it to be sure. There is general frustration for many here that places all the ownership of having to know and understand every law that may apply to you (ignorance of the law is not a defense, etc.) or else risk being prosecuted to the point of loosing your entire estate and or livelihood, yet our LEOs don't often seem to be held to the same standard, and they never have to see the inside of a jail cell or face a judge because of it.

Personally, I believe the main problem is that LEOs in our state are not required to abide by most of the same laws we do, so they have no reason to learn them. Encounters with armed LACs are still a relatively rare occurrence for most LEOs, and the OC community by practice is bound to have more than your average CCer. That ignorance creates friction at times, and I have yet to meet an LEO who likes being corrected in the field, especially in front of their peers, who may not know any better themselves.

I find mostly that its LEA transfers from other states (like California) that make these mistakes. If your never forced to live the laws, your not likely to take the time to learn the minutia unless your forced to by department training to do so.

Its a learning process for everyone.

When I am challenged by an LEO (or even a citizen) that doesn't seem to have a grasp on what our gun laws in Washington are, one of the first things I ask is what state they came here from. I would say 70% or so of the time, they are from out of state.
 
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ronmanci

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Jesus H Christ. Are you for real or just a troll.



Of course you think that guy is "insightful, polite, cordial, intelligent" etc, after all YOU AGREE with him. But low and behold, if someone doesn't agree with you, they are rude, annoying, idiotic, wrong, etc.

Yeah, no blind biases there.

Do you have a problem with being positive? You seem to be filled with negitivity and not like it when someone else tries to be positive. I guess I'm supposed to apologize for agreeing with someone? Am I supposed to apologize because I found the man to be polite. You seem to think there is something wrong with that. Like I asked you earlier, why make something out of nothing? Unlike some folks here, I do know how to disagree without getting all bent out of shape. No nasty words, but I can still make my point. Probably more effectively than when someone rants and raves with their own personal rhetoric. I'm sure the people of the State of Washington are not depending on fanatics to promote their anti-gun laws. As gun advocates we need to present an impression of professionalism, knowledge, and cooperation. If we don't, they will win every time. Although I am a LEO, I am also a gun advocate. If you would stop being so confrontational, you would get more LEO's to join YOUR cause. Goes back to "Sugar or Spice". I would never call anyone rude, annoying, idiotic, or wrong, as you suggested. I wouldn't even call my wife that.....
 
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Kryteon

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Aug 18, 2009
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Gig Harbor, Washington, USA
" As gun advocates we need to present an impression of professionalism, knowledge, and cooperation."

You had me.... right up until you used the word "cooperation". Sorry, but I won't cooperate with anyone abusing my rights or breaking the law.

It's true there are some who get a little too emotional, and some who are little too sarcastic. Thats human nature and you'll find it in every group.

Here's a challenge to any cop in the area: Put on a grubby pair of jeans, a hoodie, and strap on a 1911 (condition one). Wander around downtown Seattle or Tacoma at 10:00pm Friday night. When someone calls "Man With a Gun", and the cops show up, don't mention you're a cop, don't give ID, don't voluntarilly give up your 2nd, 4th, or 5th amendent rights. Lets see how you're treated.

I'd love to see that video.

Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Kryteon
 

sudden valley gunner

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Dec 13, 2008
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Whatcom County
Do you have a problem with being positive? You seem to be filled with negitivity and not like it when someone else tries to be positive. I guess I'm supposed to apologize for agreeing with someone? Am I supposed to apologize because I found the man to be polite. You seem to think there is something wrong with that. Like I asked you earlier, why make something out of nothing? Unlike some folks here, I do know how to disagree without getting all bent out of shape. No nasty words, but I can still make my point. Probably more effectively than when someone rants and raves with their own personal rhetoric. I'm sure the people of the State of Washington are not depending on fanatics to promote their anti-gun laws. As gun advocates we need to present an impression of professionalism, knowledge, and cooperation. If we don't, they will win every time. Although I am a LEO, I am also a gun advocate. If you would stop being so confrontational, you would get more LEO's to join YOUR cause. Goes back to "Sugar or Spice". I would never call anyone rude, annoying, idiotic, or wrong, as you suggested. I wouldn't even call my wife that.....

Welcome to the forum don't get too offended when people speak their mind and thoughts more succinctly or freely. We welcome your views, but if they are something we disagree with we are going to tell ya.

I am glad you are pro gun.....but...... your willingness just to do your job, rubs me the wrong way. The continual intrusion into our lives by the government is unfortunately left up to you to enforce. So although I am not "anti-cop" I am pro citizen that I firmly believe our rights and our responsibilities as citizens overrides and is more important than your safety or actions as a police officer. And as I sadly see more and more enforcement and a growing bureaucracy of Law enforcement I feel we have to fight against it, yes this means cutting down on folks just doing their job, but don't take it personal I feel we need to cut down on jobs across the board in any "government" agency.

I also gotta say you are the 4th cop I have seen on this forum to call views that would limit and that point out the faults of police as confrontational. Is this taught in the academy? Is this part of your training? Along with labeling anyone who invokes the 5th as "uncooperative". :D
 

Citizen

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Fairfax Co., VA
SNIP It seems that they just don't like cops that don't know the laws that they sworn to protect. and then the cops make up laws because they don't know the actual laws....am i right?

You're in the ballpark. But, it goes a little deeper.

The problem isn't that some cops don't know the laws, the problem is that some cops are willing to seize citizens in violation of their 4th Amendment rights. If there is no law against OC, then the cop cannot possibly have RAS for a detention for mere OC. Basically, if the cop does not know to a cold moral certainty that OC is illegal, he has no business seizing an OCer for mere OC. If he is not sure, then he cannot possibly know he has authority to seize someone. What on god's green earth were these cops doing seizing another human being--an American citizen of all things--unless they knew to a complete certainty they had authority to make the seizure. Do you see the subtle difference? Police do not need to know the law. All they need to know is that they are unsure or don't know the law. They can always look it up or call a magistrate before making the contact.

Another angle on this is repetition. Are we really to believe that those cops just woke up that morning and made the one and only illegal seizure of their career? Are we really to believe that was the only time they ever violated someone's rights?

No right is held more sacred, or is more carefully guarded, by the common law than the right of every individual to the possession and control of his own person, free from all restraint or interference of others, unless by clear and unquestionable authority of law. Union Pacific Rail Co. vs Botsford as quoted in Terry v Ohio.

No right. More sacred. Free of all restraint. Even from all interference. Unless by clear and unquestionable authority of law.

The Terry court could have omitted that quote. They could have watered it down. They could have written something else. But, no. There it sits in the very opinion police use as their authority to detain people.

We also have Justice Brandeis from Olmstead: "[T]he protections guaranteed...include ...the right to be left alone -- the most comprehensive of rights and the right most valued by civilized men. (emphasis by Citizen)

So, there you have it. Violations of the most sacred and valued right. By people who themselves are supposedly American citizens.

But, it goes still deeper. The Blue Wall of Silence. Where even "good" cops protect other cops by silence and "looking the other way." Essentially, we are asked to believe that these heroes-in-blue are willing to "serve and protect" against street criminals, but suddenly they are unable to protect us against rights-violator cops. They are the one's in the best position to do something effective about the rights-violator cops.
 
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MK

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What you see here is a group that has a high percentage of members who have pride in themselves, in their own self determination and who aren't too eager to be herded out into the pasture by powers outside of them who feel they know what's best for everyone. Pretty much the only thing we have to look towards protecting us now is our Constitution and we have to do everything we can to give it protection as well.

For me, its much more than just OC and guns, I find insulting intrusions in every part of my life and see a constant threat from the outside from others trying to grab hold of my strings and mandate themselves over me as my puppeteer. I am not my government's property. I am not their resource. A police officer is not my sheepdog as he's been indoctrinated to believe and I find it both insulting and threatening to have it assumed that I am an agreeable participant to that charade at any time I am contacted. I am supposed to be a free human being and I want as much control as I can scratch out for my own home, money, body, mind and family. Since my grand parents and their parents have lived, that self control, that self determination has slowly been chipped away such that everybody being born now has no roots to what it was like to have alot more freedom than we have now. They accept the situation they have been born into.
 
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