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legal guidance about carrying in/to/from this specific spot?

motoxmann

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Middletown, CT
So my female friend lives in an apartment complex of multiple different buildings. every apartment building has a sign posted on it saying it's a school zone and guns/drugs are not allowed blah blah. but they are apartment buildings, residences, aka people who excercise control over their own individual apartment. my female friend is fine with me carrying, and prefers it at times.
I've read and re-read all laws I can find pertaining to school zones and private property and public property and such, and still cannot determine what my options are to ensure I stay within the law.
second post will contain pics...
 

motoxmann

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Middletown, CT
so can someone please inform me and/or break down the applicable laws for me so I know if/when/how I can carry/transport my pistol(s) to and from my female friend's residence?
the sign on each building is posted below. the second pic is a map of the area.
yellow is the route I take.
circled in blue is the building my friend lives in.
circled in red is a daycare.
...please advise :)

SZsign.jpg
SZmap.jpg
 

motoxmann

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Middletown, CT
as far as I can tell, the sign itsself is illegal, because these are resident apartment buildings, NOT owned or controlled by any school or affiliated with any school or school functions. the daycare is privately owned, just so happens to be in the middle of the apartment complex
 

Rich B

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The school zone portion means nothing. The sign is not illegal though and the property owner has the ability to ban firearms on their property.

Sec. 29-28. Permit for sale at retail of pistol or revolver. Permit to carry pistol or revolver. Confidentiality of name and address of permit holder. Permits for out-of-state residents. said:
(e) The issuance of any permit to carry a pistol or revolver does not thereby authorize the possession or carrying of a pistol or revolver in any premises where the possession or carrying of a pistol or revolver is otherwise prohibited by law or is prohibited by the person who owns or exercises control over such premises.

http://www.cga.ct.gov/2011/pub/chap529.htm#Sec29-28.htm
 
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LESGTINCT

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Connecticut
Here are the applicable laws:

Sec. 53a-217b. Possession of a weapon on school grounds: Class D felony. (a) A person is guilty of possession of a weapon on school grounds when, knowing that such person is not licensed or privileged to do so, such person possesses a firearm or deadly weapon, as defined in section 53a-3, (1) in or on the real property comprising a public or private elementary or secondary school, or (2) at a school-sponsored activity as defined in subsection (h) of section 10-233a.

(b) The provisions of subsection (a) of this section shall not apply to the otherwise lawful possession of a firearm (1) by a person for use in a program approved by school officials in or on such school property or at such school-sponsored activity, (2) by a person in accordance with an agreement entered into between school officials and such person or such person's employer, (3) by a peace officer, as defined in subdivision (9) of section 53a-3, while engaged in the performance of such peace officer's official duties, or (4) by a person while traversing such school property for the purpose of gaining access to public or private lands open to hunting or for other lawful purposes, provided such firearm is not loaded and the entry on such school property is permitted by the local or regional board of education.

29-28(e) The issuance of any permit to carry a pistol or revolver does not thereby authorize the possession or carrying of a pistol or revolver in any premises where the possession or carrying of a pistol or revolver is otherwise prohibited by law or is prohibited by the person who owns or exercises control over such premises.

Sec. 29-37. Penalties. (a) Any person violating any provision of section 29-28 or 29-31 shall be fined not more than five hundred dollars or imprisoned not more than three years or both, and any pistol or revolver found in the possession of any person in violation of any of said provisions shall be forfeited.

Sec. 29-38. Weapons in vehicles. Penalty. Exceptions. (a) Any person who knowingly has, in any vehicle owned, operated or occupied by such person, any weapon, any pistol or revolver for which a proper permit has not been issued as provided in section 29-28 or any machine gun which has not been registered as required by section 53-202, shall be fined not more than one thousand dollars or imprisoned not more than five years or both, and the presence of any such weapon, pistol or revolver, or machine gun in any vehicle shall be prima facie evidence of a violation of this section by the owner, operator and each occupant thereof. The word "weapon", as used in this section, means any BB. gun, any blackjack, any metal or brass knuckles, any police baton or nightstick, any dirk knife or switch knife, any knife having an automatic spring release device by which a blade is released from the handle, having a blade of over one and one-half inches in length, any stiletto, any knife the edged portion of the blade of which is four inches or more in length, any martial arts weapon or electronic defense weapon, as defined in section 53a-3, or any other dangerous or deadly weapon or instrument.
 

LESGTINCT

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Aug 24, 2012
Messages
127
Location
Connecticut
So my female friend lives in an apartment complex of multiple different buildings. every apartment building has a sign posted on it saying it's a school zone and guns/drugs are not allowed blah blah. but they are apartment buildings, residences, aka people who excercise control over their own individual apartment. my female friend is fine with me carrying, and prefers it at times.
I've read and re-read all laws I can find pertaining to school zones and private property and public property and such, and still cannot determine what my options are to ensure I stay within the law.
second post will contain pics...

Here is a good reference page as well:

http://www.jud.ct.gov/lawlib/law/firearms.htm
 

motoxmann

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Location
Middletown, CT
yes I have read all of those laws repeatedly. but thank you for posting them for others to see and to ensure I did read all of the correct laws correctly :)

my questions are still fairly unanswered though.
the signs are on the apartment buildings. there is nothing posted anywhere about private property. I don't know how the signs would apply to travelling the streets through the complex, as I don't know if they are considered public streets (they do have road names), or if they are owned/controlled by the owners of the apartment complex.
Which is why I'm still curious about whether I need to do anything special while travelling through this complex? IE: 1) gun unloaded, ammo kept seperate, gun stored in a locked container or locked to a part of the vehicle out of reach from passenger compartment 2) no guns AT ALL, even if I never leave my vehicle. 3) act as if it's a public highway and carry it on my person as normal...

The school zone portion means nothing. The sign is not illegal though and the property owner has the ability to ban firearms on their property.

I understand that. what I am still confused about though is the fact that it is an apartment building and that law states "person who owns or exercises control of the property", it kind of leaves it optional in regards to which person has the say if both exist with opposite requests. of course the owner says no guns according to the sign. but my friend has her permanent residence in one of these apartments. if the owner says no guns, but the permanent legal resident of said apartment says yes I can carry, which do I need to listen to? does the legal resident who actually lives in that unit have the upper hand in allowing me to carry in her unit? or does the owner have the upper hand over the resident of the unit and can demand no guns whatsoever no matter what the actual residents (who exercise control of the property) say?

I'm even more glad I asked this now, because it seems the answer is very difficult to determine
 
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Rich B

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the signs are on the apartment buildings. there is nothing posted anywhere about private property.

The buildings and the property around them are owned by someone. And that person saw fit to give you explicit notice with a bunch of signs.

I don't know how the signs would apply to travelling the streets through the complex, as I don't know if they are considered public streets (they do have road names), or if they are owned/controlled by the owners of the apartment complex.

I couldn't give you reasonable guidance on this. If they are public streets, you don't have a problem until you leave them and enter private property where carry is prohibited.

Which is why I'm still curious about whether I need to do anything special while travelling through this complex?

How can we answer this if you don't know who owns the roads?

If the apartment complex owns the roads, you are SOL. 'No guns' means 'no guns'.

I understand that. what I am still confused about though is the fact that it is an apartment building and that law states "person who owns or exercises control of the property", it kind of leaves it optional in regards to which person has the say if both exist with opposite requests. of course the owner says no guns according to the sign. but my friend has her permanent residence in one of these apartments. if the owner says no guns, but the permanent legal resident of said apartment says yes I can carry, which do I need to listen to? does the legal resident who actually lives in that unit have the upper hand in allowing me to carry in her unit? or does the owner have the upper hand over the resident of the unit and can demand no guns whatsoever no matter what the actual residents (who exercise control of the property) say?

Your friend does not own or exercise control over the property. The person or people who own and manage the apartment complex do.
 

motoxmann

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Middletown, CT
ok, I guess I'll need to determine then if the streets are public or owned by the owners of the apartments. I somewhat figured that

Your friend does not own or exercise control over the property. The person or people who own and manage the apartment complex do.

if the renters of the apartments have signed leases for residence, isn't that a legal contract explicitly stating said renter exercises control of their specific unit? or at least partial control?

if not, this also raises another similar question: does this mean the hundreds of legal residents in this complex are 100% ineligible to obtain a pistol permit, and/or unable to legally exercise their constitutional right to bear arms? afterall, these are residences, and the residents have rights too, no? multiple related laws are specific in stating "residence"

don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to argue anyone or anything, I just want to make sure I fully understand what is legal and illegal in this area
 
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Rich B

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if the renters of the apartments have signed leases for residence, isn't that a legal contract explicitly stating said renter exercises control of their specific unit? or at least partial control?

There might be a legal argument to be made if the lease does not include a 'no weapons' provision (my guess is that it does), but that would only really cover a tenant possessing a firearm in their unit. By renting an apartment, you do not suddenly gain all rights to all of the 'common areas', so their postings apply just as much as anyone else's.

if not, this also raises another similar question: does this mean the hundreds of legal residents in this complex are 100% ineligible to obtain a pistol permit,

What would this have to do with obtaining a pistol permit?

and/or unable to legally exercise their constitutional right to bear arms?

The second amendment does not guarantee a right to keep and bear arms in a place where you have specifically signed said right away as this tenant has. Further, the property rights of the property owner are going to carry more weight, especially in light of CGS 29-28(e).
 

Rich B

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circled in blue is the building my friend lives in.
circled in red is a daycare.

Missed this before, but a 'daycare' is not a 'school' and when you have a permit, there is no such thing as a 'school zone' for a firearm, there are only the 'buildings and real property' of the school itself that are prohibited.

The sign is retarded, but it is still expressing the intent of the property owner to prohibit firearms and that is likely to hold up in court, regardless of how stupid the owner's reasoning is.
 

motoxmann

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Middletown, CT
There might be a legal argument to be made if the lease does not include a 'no weapons' provision (my guess is that it does), but that would only really cover a tenant possessing a firearm in their unit. By renting an apartment, you do not suddenly gain all rights to all of the 'common areas', so their postings apply just as much as anyone else's.

The second amendment does not guarantee a right to keep and bear arms in a place where you have specifically signed said right away as this tenant has. Further, the property rights of the property owner are going to carry more weight, especially in light of CGS 29-28(e).

I'll have to read their lease agreement to see if it does in fact state it somewhere.

What would this have to do with obtaining a pistol permit?

I guess nothing to an extent. but if the apartment is the person's primary legal residence, it would mean the permit would be to an extent useless if they can't own firearms and maintain posession of them in their place of residence, with or without a clause in their lease agreement referencing firearms.

I think I may have to attempt to contact the owner(s) and see if they'll make some form of private agreement in writing. it sounds like it'd be the only surefire way to legally carry to/from/in/on this residential area
 
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motoxmann

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Missed this before, but a 'daycare' is not a 'school' and when you have a permit, there is no such thing as a 'school zone' for a firearm, there are only the 'buildings and real property' of the school itself that are prohibited.

The sign is retarded, but it is still expressing the intent of the property owner to prohibit firearms and that is likely to hold up in court, regardless of how stupid the owner's reasoning is.

yeah that was my assumption as well, but wanted some other opinions on the matter

Judging from the aerial pictures you attached, the roads around the complex are private roads. The public road is quite visible and obviously different.

yes this was also my assumption. and even if the roads were public, the parking lots are most definitely owned by the complex owners
 
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1245A Defender

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north mason county, Washington, USA
What?? NOOO!!!!!!

I'll have to read their lease agreement to see if it does in fact state it somewhere.



I guess nothing to an extent. but if the apartment is the person's primary legal residence, it would mean the permit would be to an extent useless if they can't own firearms and maintain posession of them in their place of residence, with or without a clause in their lease agreement referencing firearms.

I think I may have to attempt to contact the owner(s) and see if they'll make some form of private agreement in writing. it sounds like it'd be the only surefire way to legally carry to/from/in/on this residential area


Do NOT!!! ask!!!
Do NOT!!! ask!!!

Ignoring the signs,,, is not Illegal!!!
Carrying descretely, for your protection, is your goal..
If you ask,,, they will say NO!!! and then they will watch you like a hawk, may even involve the cops to enforce thier policy!

COMMENT BY ADMINISTRATOR: There seems to be some disagreement as to whether or not ignoring a sign in Connecticut is a crime. I have not researched the issue yet but anyone reading this should do so before making their own decision.
 
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motoxmann

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Middletown, CT
Do NOT!!! ask!!!
Do NOT!!! ask!!!

If you ask,,, they will say NO!!! and then they will watch you like a hawk, may even involve the cops to enforce thier policy!

yeah, I realised that as soon as I posted it haha

Ignoring the signs,,, is not Illegal!!!
Carrying descretely, for your protection, is your goal..

umm, this though, I think is wrong. ignoring the signs and still carrying discretely WOULD be illegal. at least I'm sure the courts would say so, especially if I take notice of the signs and still continue to carry
 
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Rich B

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North Branford, Connecticut, USA
Ignoring the signs,,, is not Illegal!!!
Carrying descretely, for your protection, is your goal..
If you ask,,, they will say NO!!! and then they will watch you like a hawk, may even involve the cops to enforce thier policy!

It is illegal in Connecticut. Please don't give bad advice like this if you do not understand our laws.
 

motoxmann

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Location
Middletown, CT
This will do nothing. You need permission from the property owner, not the tenants.

yeah, that's what I said, the owner :p
though I do think that might be a bad idea for the exact reason posted. they'll probably say no, and will then watch me like a hawk
 
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