Is Open Carry tactically wise?

[solus]

1. What is the point of going to a range which does not allow holsters and drawing therefrom? I would never frequent such a place.

2. Anyone who has convinced themselves there is any "tactical advantage" to CC, or that CC is in any way tactical at all, is a fool. CC is more accidents waiting to happen than I can count.

3. Numerous posters in this thread are clearly not on the up-and-up.

Blessed be, another wise and rational individual among the multitudes...

ipse

 

[JustaShooter]

CC is more accidents waiting to happen than I can count.

I OC - probably not as much as I CC, but that has more to do with my normal manner of dress than anything. So, please don't think I'm anti OC but I have to ask why, with proper training and practice, much like you would (I hope) for OC, "CC is more accidents waiting to happen", as you put it.

And a corollary to that question would be this: Presumably there are times in VA when temperatures warrant a jacket, if not a coat, like during the winter. How do you handle that? And even in warmer times of the year, do you never wear a suit and jacket? If so, do you disarm or do you CC?

Just curious because I see a number of folk here, including you, who appear to be OC "purists" for lack of a better word, and I have to wonder how you manage during less accommodating weather or dress situations.

 

[marshaul]

So many things can go wrong with CC, which would never happen with OC. I'm gonna give you two real-world scenarios that come to mind without any effort (both of these have happened):

1. Guy fumbles his draw because of extra/different clothing from what he usually practices with.

2. Some young kid robs a CCer at gunpoint, CCer is forced to shoot the kid in self-defense, only to find out afterward that the gun was only a realistic airsoft gun. Now, while he did what he had to, and was within his right of self-defense, his life was changed forever over a crime which would with certainty have been deterred by OC (what kid is gonna rob, using a toy gun, a guy he knows is armed?), but which CC's "tactical advantage" – the "element of surprise" – left him backed into a corner and with no other choice but to draw and shoot. Better to deter a crime and go home ignorant it ever – almost – happened (and, heck, maybe the kid learns his lesson right then and there), or live forever with having to shoot him? Your call.

I'm sure I could come up with some more examples if I tried. Whereas, we have no shortage of CC-only types who, of course, secretly enjoy being an "only one", with an elite permission slip, but are desperate to come with some "tactical" justification for their preference (obviously they could never admit the truth in their gun rag/youtube channel), and the best they can manage are the laughably absurd "you'll be shot first!", or "they'll just try to steal your gun", or the aforementioned "element of surprise" – which is a misnomer as the aggressor, by definition, always has that luxury. (Unless, of course, you have heroic sheepdog fantasies of saving countless victims from a situation you bravely rush into, in which case I can't help you.)

As for wintertime, I have a 5.11 5-in-1 jacket (basically a warm inner and waterproof outer jacket, which can be worn apart or together) which has "zippered side seams" so you can zip it up "around" and behind your gun/holster. Back in the day you could get these in brown and green. Unfortunately, now you can only get them in cop colors.

I can, however, tell you that the "Virginia tuck" (while no longer really a thing as CC has recently been legalized in restaurants which serve alcohol here) works just fine with any jacket you'll need here (even up in the mountains). And for colder climates, you could buy a holster which keeps the pistol at the right height and distance to tuck your jacket behind.

I dunno, frankly I've never seen the big deal with jackets/coats and OC.

Unfortunately I have not solved wearing a suit and OC. I do this infrequently enough that I haven't put much thought into it, and I just go unarmed. I'd likely CC in this case if no license were required, but I don't think it's worth getting a permit for something so uncommon.

I actually sort of would like to solve the issue, though. My 1911 is definitely attractive enough to be seen with a nice suit (although I'd probably wanna polish my bone handles more often, as they get a little scuffed with daily OC), and I suppose there are plenty of nice-looking holsters, but... They're just not designed around a suit, and vice-versa.

Now, if anybody knows a tailor and a holster maker, maybe we can get them together and finally help the act of wearing a suit to be fully civilized. That would really be something. :lol:

 

[Grapeshot]

While this is an OC forum, dedicated to protecting and promoting open carry, we make no demands on others to accept our style/methodology. All are free to make their own choices. We ask for courtesy and deal in facts.

Do I think OC offers advantages over CC? You betcha, but I won't try to burn your barn to convince you.

 

[marshaul]

All are free to make their own choices.

That's a loaded statement if I ever encountered one.

An individual is, indeed, "free" to get a permit, isn't he? :lol:

 

[Grapeshot]

That's a loaded statement if I ever encountered one.

An individual is, indeed, "free" to get a permit, isn't he? :lol:

You saw what I did there then.

 

[JustaShooter]

So many things can go wrong with CC, which would never happen with OC. I'm gonna give you two real-world scenarios that come to mind without any effort (both of these have happened):

I never said CC was a better choice, just curious about the statement you made. In the first scenario you mentioned, if you fail to train, you fail - enough said. And yes that means that if you CC you need to train and practice more, and more often. In the second scenario, I'd have to call that, in the terms of my occupation, an "edge case" - that is, low risk of occurrence that requires a circumstance at the edge of realistic possibilities to trigger. Not that it isn't valid, but in those situations where I have the choice of CC or being disarmed, I won't spend too much time worrying about edge cases.

Whereas, we have no shortage of CC-only types who, of course, secretly enjoy being an "only one", with an elite permission slip, but are desperate to come with some "tactical" justification for their preference (obviously they could never admit the truth in their gun rag/youtube channel), and the best they can manage are the laughably absurd "you'll be shot first!", or "they'll just try to steal your gun", or the aforementioned "element of surprise" – which is a misnomer as the aggressor, by definition, always has that luxury. (Unless, of course, you have heroic sheepdog fantasies of saving countless victims from a situation you bravely rush into, in which case I can't help you.)

If you haven't picked up on it, I'm not a CC-only type, and hold no illusions that the 3 most often cited anti-OC rationalizations aren't full of fail. And I harbor no sheepdog fantasies whatsoever.

As for wintertime, I have a 5.11 5-in-1 jacket (basically a warm inner and waterproof outer jacket, which can be worn apart or together) which has "zippered side seams" so you can zip it up "around" and behind your gun/holster. Back in the day you could get these in brown and green. Unfortunately, now you can only get them in cop colors.

I can, however, tell you that the "Virginia tuck" (while no longer really a thing as CC has recently been legalized in restaurants which serve alcohol here) works just fine with any jacket you'll need here (even up in the mountains). And for colder climates, you could buy a holster which keeps the pistol at the right height and distance to tuck your jacket behind.

I dunno, frankly I've never seen the big deal with jackets/coats and OC.

I guess I thought it got colder there than it does. Here in NE Ohio and some other places I travel to for work it gets cold enough in winter that a long, heavy coat is necessary and the methods of OC you mention just won't work well, if at all. For those situations I can't see a good alternative that allows OC that doesn't involve being very, very cold. Dangerously cold if done for any length of time. For those times, my choice is to CC.

Unfortunately I have not solved wearing a suit and OC. I do this infrequently enough that I haven't put much thought into it, and I just go unarmed. I'd likely CC in this case if no license were required, but I don't think it's worth getting a permit for something so uncommon.

I actually sort of would like to solve the issue, though. My 1911 is definitely attractive enough to be seen with a nice suit (although I'd probably wanna polish my bone handles more often, as they get a little scuffed with daily OC), and I suppose there are plenty of nice-looking holsters, but... They're just not designed around a suit, and vice-versa.

Now, if anybody knows a tailor and a holster maker, maybe we can get them together and finally help the act of wearing a suit to be fully civilized. That would really be something. :lol:

For me, a suit is a regular thing so again, my choice is to CC rather than being disarmed.

(Not that it was a part of the original discussion, but to add insult to injury, in Ohio, you also cannot have a loaded firearm in a motor vehicle without a CHL.)

All of the above mean that there are times I can't OC and have to choose between being disarmed and CC. I've chosen CC and yes, that means I've submitted to the process my state requires to obtain my "permission slip" as you and others call it. But since it allows me to be armed in situations I would otherwise not be able to I don't have a big problem with that. Certainly I would prefer it to be otherwise and have constitutional carry be the rule of law in Ohio (and for that matter, all states) but that isn't the case today. But I hold no illusions that choosing to not obtain an Ohio CHL would either cause Ohio to change to constitutional carry or more importantly would stop someone who wanted to do me or my loved ones harm.

As has been observed, life is replete with choices and we all must make them, as you and I have both done. I'm encouraged that we can discuss them in a civilized manner here in these forums. I wish more would make that choice...

 

[Grapeshot]

--snipped--

As has been observed, life is replete with choices and we all must make them, as you and I have both done. I'm encouraged that we can discuss them in a civilized manner here in these forums. I wish more would make that choice...

Here, here!

 

[WalkingWolf]

I guess I thought it got colder there than it does. Here in NE Ohio and some other places I travel to for work it gets cold enough in winter that a long, heavy coat is necessary and the methods of OC you mention just won't work well, if at all. For those situations I can't see a good alternative that allows OC that doesn't involve being very, very cold. Dangerously cold if done for any length of time. For those times, my choice is to CC.

Might as well be unarmed IMO. I can't imagine getting to a gun from under heavy coat when the SHTF. I was issued a full heavy parka while a LEO in Illinois, that had cuts in both sides OCing the duty firearm. It is something any decent tailor can do. Probably much less than the cost of a permission slip.

 

[JustaShooter]

Might as well be unarmed IMO. I can't imagine getting to a gun from under heavy coat when the SHTF. I was issued a full heavy parka while a LEO in Illinois, that had cuts in both sides OCing the duty firearm. It is something any decent tailor can do. Probably much less than the cost of a permission slip.

I would also not want to draw from under my full-length heavy coat, so I do not carry that way - or to be more accurate, it is not the only place I carry. I do like the idea of the cuts in the sides though I would have to see how they were done. I don't suppose you have any images you could share? The only things I could find through a Google search were waist length or a little longer so had short zippered slits. I'm not sure how well a full-length cut would work (or for that matter, look) for a mid-thigh length parka or a long dress coat.

As to the cost of a decent tailor vs. permission slip, I doubt you could get much done by a good tailor for what a CHL costs in Ohio. Beside which, that only address one of the several reasons I've chosen to go that route. Considering I spend more in ammo per month than the CHL costs per year it is a small price (in $ terms) to pay.

 

[skidmark]

I would also not want to draw from under my full-length heavy coat, so I do not carry that way - or to be more accurate, it is not the only place I carry. I do like the idea of the cuts in the sides though I would have to see how they were done. I don't suppose you have any images you could share? The only things I could find through a Google search were waist length or a little longer so had short zippered slits. I'm not sure how well a full-length cut would work (or for that matter, look) for a mid-thigh length parka or a long dress coat.

As to the cost of a decent tailor vs. permission slip, I doubt you could get much done by a good tailor for what a CHL costs in Ohio. Beside which, that only address one of the several reasons I've chosen to go that route. Considering I spend more in ammo per month than the CHL costs per year it is a small price (in $ terms) to pay.

Check out any police supply site - the parkas have zippered slits. The good parkas have zippered slits with a patch of velcro at the bottom to close up the flap around the holster so that wind does not slip inside.

Any tailor can do the job if they are installing the zipper along a seam. If you want the slip cut elsewhere (and for some of us there are good reasons for putting the slit forward of the side seam) you will need to scout around and ask if the tailor 1) can do it and then 2) will do it for a reasonable fee.

If CHLs in Ohio come with a $5 bill paper clipped to them, paying to have a slit cut is still a good investment in self protection.

stay safe.

 

[WalkingWolf]

If you are close to any military base, tailoring is very reasonable at most dry cleaners that cater to the military. I hand a handbrace repaired several times instead of buying a new one. Cost was a couple dollars, but then that was 10 years ago.

 

[Fallschirjmäger]

How does the theory that
"Concealed carry is tactically superior because it makes the potential criminal wonder whether or not the person he is robbing might be armed and therefor may make him not commit the crime"
- - differ from the theory that
"Police officers should always be in plain clothes because it makes the potential criminal wonder whether or not the person he is robbing or the other patrons in the bank are really police and therefor may make him not commit the crime"?

Deterrence has value, that is why police have fancy uniforms, drive well marked cars, and try to have a visible presence.

Having operated in different countries, I feel some small ability to address the different concerns/attitudes that the police in differing countries have towards the way they address their responsibilities....
In the USA the police believe that proactive patrolling which includes well marked police units in neighborhoods will reduce crime while hiding behind bushes and billboards to catch speeders will reduce speeding.
In Europe*, the police are rarely seen patrolling streets and when they set up radar control stations they're almost always well marked and have signs warning that radar is being used up ahead.


*My experience is limited to Germany and Italy with a few years in Japan, so I'll admit it isn't representative of Every overseas location.

 

[Fallschirjmäger]

To address the matter of "I'd rather be concealed and not have a potential mugger realize it until too late"
...
If you are openly carrying - -
And a mugger is armed, he will act based upon his determination that he (with an already deployed weapon) can successfully engage someone who must draw from rest.
And the mugger is not armed, he will act based upon his determination of how successful he thinks engaging an armed opponent will be.

If you are carrying concealed - -
And the mugger is armed, he will act based upon how successful he is likely to be against a victim that has a 1-3% chance of being armed when he is armed and ready.
And a mugger is not armed, he will act based upon his determination that his victim has about a 1-3% chance of being armed and able to successfully resist his criminal act.


Any way you look at it, the chances of success against an armed and ready opponent (the mugger) don't look spectacular. OC may get you shot, but CC won't prevent you from being mugged and the mugger will Still have a weapon. I'd rather avoid the incident altogether than depend on outdrawing my opponent and there is more deterrence in a snake rattling its tail than in one silently coiled up to strike that you don't see.

 

[Grapeshot]

--snipped-- I'd rather avoid the incident altogether than depend on outdrawing my opponent and there is more deterrence in a snake rattling its tail than in one silently coiled up to strike that you don't see.

+1

QFT

 

[marshaul]

All of the above mean that there are times I can't OC and have to choose between being disarmed and CC. I've chosen CC and yes, that means I've submitted to the process my state requires to obtain my "permission slip" as you and others call it. But since it allows me to be armed in situations I would otherwise not be able to I don't have a big problem with that. Certainly I would prefer it to be otherwise and have constitutional carry be the rule of law in Ohio (and for that matter, all states) but that isn't the case today. But I hold no illusions that choosing to not obtain an Ohio CHL would either cause Ohio to change to constitutional carry or more importantly would stop someone who wanted to do me or my loved ones harm.

As has been observed, life is replete with choices and we all must make them, as you and I have both done. I'm encouraged that we can discuss them in a civilized manner here in these forums. I wish more would make that choice...

Well, obviously if you are only able to CC, then of course it's better to be armed than not. But that's not because CC is in any way inherently better, more tactical, whatever.

Of course I feel you should have such freedom without interference from the state (no licensure of any sort is appropriate).

However, I was speaking as to the supposed "advantages" of CC. Being forced to do it isn't really an advantage.

I still think that the issue of suits is solvable. (I might make inroads at some point in the near future.) Wintertime is easily tractable.

 

[JustaShooter]

Well, obviously if you are only able to CC, then of course it's better to be armed than not. But that's not because CC is in any way inherently better, more tactical, whatever.

Of course I feel you should have such freedom without interference from the state (no licensure of any sort is appropriate).

However, I was speaking as to the supposed "advantages" of CC. Being forced to do it isn't really an advantage.

I still think that the issue of suits is solvable. (I might make inroads at some point in the near future.) Wintertime is easily tractable.

Agreed, agreed, and agreed. Be sure to post if / when you come up with a solution for OC with a suit.

 

[WalkingWolf]

Well, obviously if you are only able to CC, then of course it's better to be armed than not. But that's not because CC is in any way inherently better, more tactical, whatever.

Of course I feel you should have such freedom without interference from the state (no licensure of any sort is appropriate).

However, I was speaking as to the supposed "advantages" of CC. Being forced to do it isn't really an advantage.

I still think that the issue of suits is solvable. (I might make inroads at some point in the near future.) Wintertime is easily tractable.

I don't wear suits, but a nice western leather drop holster would look good. A suit could also be cut on the seam to allow it to go around a leather duty holster. I have been thinking of having a sport coat tailored to a Ike coat for open carry and dress up situations.

 

[Grapeshot]

I don't wear suits, but a nice western leather drop holster would look good. A suit could also be cut on the seam to allow it to go around a leather duty holster. I have been thinking of having a sport coat tailored to a Ike coat for open carry and dress up situations.

Bring back the Nehru jacket - think that an external belt and holster would add a certain flair to the style.

 

[WalkingWolf]

Bring back the Nehru jacket - think that an external belt and holster would add a certain flair to the style.

I saw one of those for women in Wally World, guess they are coming back. A nice vest would look good for open carry for a semi dress up occasion. I have thought about getting a CW frock coat for those rare occasions, but gray is denim, and I couldn't bring myself to wear blue.