If a cop wants to disarm you...

[eye95]

Im in north carolina and I have yet to have a LEO stop me. If I was ever to be disarmed for "officer safety" I would simply say no, that it is my right to OC and you are unlawfuly detaining me so I will be on my way now.

However, if they insist, you need to continue to refuse consent but allow them to disarm you. Always bear in mind that you cannot possibly know for certain that they do not have RAS. If they stopped you because someone lied and said that you were handling the weapon or said threatening things, they have RAS.

If they have RAS, and you refuse to comply, you could find yourself face-planted, or worse, arrested or shot--and it could easily turn out that the officers operated completely within the law.

Always refuse consent. But, never, never, never resist the orders the officer gives you. You can fix unlawful orders later. Arrests for resisting are harder to fix. You can't fix dead.

 

[Saull Felipe]

However, if they insist, you need to continue to refuse consent but allow them to disarm you. Always bear in mind that you cannot possibly know for certain that they do not have RAS. If they stopped you because someone lied and said that you were handling the weapon or said threatening things, they have RAS.

If they have RAS, and you refuse to comply, you could find yourself face-planted, or worse, arrested or shot--and it could easily turn out that the officers operated completely within the law.

Always refuse consent. But, never, never, never resist the orders the officer gives you. You can fix unlawful orders later. Arrests for resisting are harder to fix. You can't fix dead.

Got it lol never resist

 

[jpjpjp]

un- loaded

In california cops have the legal right to check and make sure the gun is unloaded(since we can only open carry unloaded firearms). So you will need to make sure you are not breaking the law by denying the officer something he is legally able to do.

how can you feel confident about carrying an unloaded firearm ,knowing you have barely a chance in hell of succesfully using it against an aggressor,while would be bad guy knows good guy oc'ing is un-loaded?

 

[Badger Johnson]

Old thread but a good one.

Be advised they now have wearable video cams. It's not exactly HD, but it looks like a cell phone. (I think it also functions as a phone, not sure).

Looxcie (look-see)
http://www.amazon.com/Looxcie-Wearable-Bluetooth-Camcorder-Compatible/dp/B00400O8PO

Hope this is of interest

PS - be sure and read the comments which were mixed. IMO it's on the edge of being ready for prime time. In addition, it can record and post off site (i.e.to your phone or Facebook). This is key if the LEO tries to confiscate footage.

 

[RugerBabe86]

In california cops have the legal right to check and make sure the gun is unloaded(since we can only open carry unloaded firearms). So you will need to make sure you are not breaking the law by denying the officer something he is legally able to do.

What is the point of being able to OC if it can't be loaded? I mean what if someone tried to attack you? Doesn't make a bit of sense!

 

[eye95]

OCers in CA need to be really good at drawing the firearm with one hand, drawing the magazine with the other, slapping the magazine in, and racking the firearm. I bet some can do it in about a second.

 

[DevinWKuska]

I have been stopped by police (once again it was treated as felony stop for reasons beyond me) for speeding. THe police officer asked me out of the car(while in the cover of his bullet proof door) and onto the ground. After he comes up to me and sees that I am armed(get this...) he asks me if I have any weapons(for the camera maybe?) I state yes. after he had searched me he asked me to kindly stand up slowly while maintaining my hands on the back of my head as much as possible. The police officer asked me if I would slowly release the magazine, remove the magazine and then he removed the gun and set it on the hood of my car. He was courteous enough that(besides once again feeling the wrath of profiling) I did not feel in any danger. We were in front of his car with camera rolling the entire time(if he shot me while removing my magazine only an idiot could call it a clean shoot). After all this he stated I was speeding and the LEO's had noticed gang activity in the area and suspect me of such activity. I left with a warning(42 in a 35) the police just asked that I put the gun in the car before touching the magazine.

Now I know not all of you know the joys of being felony stopped but I am simply using a RL example of how not resisting just made things easier. Some might get all up in arms(no pun intended) of how I was treated but after dealing with such stops for 15yrs... I dont even care anymore. HOWEVER in light of the seattle woodcarver shooting incident I think if a police officer ordered me to dissarm I would probably tell him something to the effect of " At this time I do not feel it to be in either of our best interest for me to in any way touch my sidearm. I would feel much more comfortable if you removed it, or I can keep my hands on my head until this issue is resolved." I think it was Eye95 who said it best "You can fix anything but dead"

 

[JC_Biggs]

my answer is simple.... "sir, my firearm is carried in condition one, it becomes condition 0 when removed and unless I'm being detained i would rather not remove it from its holster unless absolutely necessary"

i have an xmd with grip/trigger safety so the conditions make sense. there is no manual saftey to switch on and off.

 

[eye95]

my answer is simple.... "sir, my firearm is carried in condition one, it becomes condition 0 when removed and unless I'm being detained i would rather not remove it from its holster unless absolutely necessary"

i have an xmd with grip/trigger safety so the conditions make sense. there is no manual saftey to switch on and off.

You don't have to grip the firearm in a way that removes the safety. You also surely do not have to put your finger inside the trigger guard. I strongly recommend that you do not make the "condition 0" remark to the officer. Many folks will assume that you are telling him that you will remove a manual safety. That is a threat. Depending on your jurisdiction, the officer might reasonably think of that as a crime.

As you have described your situation, it might be more appropriate to say the following: "My firearm has two safeties preventing an accidental discharge, a grip safety and a trigger safety. Removing it from the holster greatly increases the chance of defeating these safeties. I will not remove it from the holster. If you are intent on seizing my firearm (to which I do not consent), please do so by taking the holster with the firearm still safely enshrouded."

Oh, and have your recorder running.

 

[JC_Biggs]

i never thought of it that way... but i can see where that could be interpreted that way.. but i have only been asked to remove it one time, and thats what i said, and the cop was like ok..then we started bs'ing..sooooo i guess its never really been a problem for me. NC laws are pretty good, could be alot better, but they also could be a lot worse..

oh by the way, i was told the "conditions" were slightly different than what were used to hearing(since they were for the 1911 me and several others adopted this set).. they are as follows

Condition 0: The only step necessary to fire the gun is pulling the trigger.
Condition 1: To fire, you must first disengage a manual safety in a separate motion from pulling the trigger.
Condition 2: To fire, you must first cock the hammer in a separate motion from pulling the trigger.
Condition 3: To fire, you must first load a round into the chamber by manipulating the action in some way.
Condition 4: Completely unloaded

as far as condition 1 going to condition 0 ( grip safety in) im not gonna hold a firearm in an unsecure manner, so its gonna be in thats just the way i feel about it.. if its out of my holster it should be secure in my hand as best as possible, and that is with my hand wrapped around the grip, finger off the trigger. if there is not one in the chamber, then maybe its a diff story depending on the situation...

ok back on topic

 

[REALteach4u]

They can only disarm you during an official detention with reasonable and articulable suspicion of a crime being committed or about to be committed. Your first question should be "Am I being detained?" If the answer is no, end the encounter. or if you prefer to ask, "Am I free to leave?" and the answer is yes, then leave.

Once you verify that you are being detained, when the officer wants to disarm you, your only real option is to inform the officer, "I do not consent to surrendering my firearm to you, but I will not resist." You can physically resist if you want, but I wouldn't recommend it.

If you verify that you ARE being detained, and there is no RAS, the next step is to ask for a supervisor to come to the scene and to attempt to work it out with the supervisor. If that doesn't work, you'll have to take it to higher authority and/or lawyer up.

Also, if you are in a public place such as a restaurant, it is generally a good idea to not "step outside" with the officer. Keep the encounter in the public place. More chance of witnessess/vido surveilance that way.

Pretty bad when we have to strategize encounters with police officers in America.

I have to agree with NavyLT here. Remember rule number one on this, you're both armed and the LEO already has you at a disadvantage. At least one of you is going home alive, so why not make it both of you? File the complaint later post-incident.

 

[since9]

Im in north carolina and I have yet to have a LEO stop me. If I was ever to be disarmed for "officer safety" I would simply say no, that it is my right to OC and you are unlawfuly detaining me so I will be on my way now.

Good luck with that. I think you'd have more success, not to mention being a lot safer, if you were to simply say, and with a smile, "I'll not resist, officer, but I do not consent to any search of my person, my vehicle, or any other infringement on my Constitutional rights." Of course their next several comments will be subtle attempts by them to get you to give consent, such as "Would you please step out of the car?"

So, given such a reasonable request, would you, or not? If not, why not, and what would you say in response and why?

I have to agree with NavyLT here. Remember rule number one on this, you're both armed and the LEO already has you at a disadvantage. At least one of you is going home alive, so why not make it both of you? File the complaint later post-incident.

Bingo. As Heinlein used to say, "You can be a dead lion or a live jackal, but it's even better to be a live lion." Fighting injustice at the wrong end of the law is stupid, and a foolish way to risk life and limb. Once you're post-incident, away from your antagonist, you're on far safer ground.

 

[Kirbinator]

oh by the way, i was told the "conditions" were slightly different than what were used to hearing(since they were for the 1911 me and several others adopted this set).. they are as follows

Condition 0: The only step necessary to fire the gun is pulling the trigger.
Condition 1: To fire, you must first disengage a manual safety in a separate motion from pulling the trigger.
Condition 2: To fire, you must first cock the hammer in a separate motion from pulling the trigger.
Condition 3: To fire, you must first load a round into the chamber by manipulating the action in some way.
Condition 4: Completely unloaded

By the same token, a Ruger P90 with a decocker is a condition zero gun if there is a bullet in the chamber, as it doesn't have a safety (safety exists between ears). However, decocked, the trigger pull goes from 6 lbs to 12 lbs. The hammer not being back on this particular firearm doesn't matter; when the trigger is pulled, the hammer starts coming back... when it gets all the way back, the mechanism releases and kerblamo, there goes a round. Decocked, the firing pin is pulled out of the way and off the bullet and the hammer released.

There's about a dozen different ways to make a gun safe; each manufacturer chose a different method.

 

[papa bear]

i was thinking about the same thing with my P90.