Flashlight as a backup

[Wooley]

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I have a great LED flashlight that has a crenelated (it has teeth) bezel that I used as a back up a few weeks back. I had two young adult males approach me in a parking lot and did not have a firearm on me. They asked me what was in my truck, and upon being told not to worry about it one approached from behind and reached for me as I unlocked the door. I turned and immediately tried to wrist lock him and he grabbed my handwith his other hand. At this point I pulled the flashlight out of my pocket with the weak hand, blinded him with it, and struck him in the forehead. He went down right away and his friend didn't want to see what else I had up my sleeve. Good thing, because the light was it.

Had I had a firearm, my belief is that I would have had no choice but to attempt to back up and draw at the same time as I don't want to be fighting on the ground with someone and have them gain control of my weapon. At that point, presentation of deadly force should be more than adequate.

Am I right in this thought? My fear wasn't that he could immediately harm me, but that he could gain control of my weapon.

What do you think? Would I have been right to draw in that instance?

In any case, the flashlight is an excellent back up and most people will not expect you to use it as such. Comes in great in the District where you can't carry. Gotta get the edge where you can.

 

[Reverend73]

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So, I'm confused. Did they ask what was in your truck (ie the engine ) or what's in your truck (ie in the cab, belongings, etc) ???

 

[Wooley]

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Sorry, let me elaborate on that...

As I walked into the store the 2 men stared at me and said something in Spanish that did not have a friendly tone to it. As I came back out there were now in the parking spot next to my truck and the closest one said, "Whats in the truck?" in a menacing tone. I told him not to worry and turned to unlock the car, and he said "Well I wanna see" and reached for me. This was from maybe 3 feet away, I was watching over my shoulder and in the reflection in the window of the truck. I grabbed his reaching hand and the rest I've stated...if anyone need more clarification let me know. I'd like to know what everyone thinks about this.

 

[longwatch]

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Right to draw, hard to say, but as you report it you seem justified in your actions. Not every situation calls for a firearm and only carrying a pistol can be problematic. If you only have a hammer every problem looks like a nail and so on. Your case shows the value of pepper spray or a TID (Tactical Impact Device) like your flashlight. Glad you came out on top.

 

[Wooley]

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Well, if all I have to do is be in fear of death or grievous injury, I am sure I can articulate that physical contact may equal fighting, may lead to going to the ground, may amount to the person taking my weapon.

Can I get a LEO opinion in here?

 

[VAopencarry]

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LEO's aren't lawyers and neither am I.

To say justied in drawing is to say justified in shooting and killing. Are you justified to kill someone unarmed and punches you. I would say, no. Multiple attackers, you would have more ground to stand on. IF in fact, you were rolling around on the ground and he went for your gun, then you would be more justified in drawing on him. To draw just because it 'might' happen, I think you are on weak legal ground in most cases. Just my opinion based on zero days of law school.

 

[Wooley]

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See, I tend to agree with you now. But if its the fear of having your weapon taken, does that count?

 

[BobCav]

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Wooley wrote:

See, I tend to agree with you now. But if its the fear of having your weapon taken, does that count?

If it's a reaonable, justifiable and articulable fear, perhaps.

 

[Wooley]

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Right, so I fear that if I fight with this person they could gain control of my weapon and fear for my safety because of it. Yes?

 

[67GT390FB]

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after this was over did you call the police and file a report? sounds like you did a good job but the next honest citizen might not be so lucky.



joe

 

[Wooley]

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I actually did not. I didn't want to be standing around waiting for a unit to show up while these two called whomever to come help out. I reported it on the non-emergency number but never actually spoke to anyone in person.

 

[VAopencarry]

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What BobCav said is your best answer. Is it 'reasonable'? Would the police, prosecutor or jury see it as reasonable? or overreacting? Was it 'justified' Did he grab your arm and say "I am going to kill you M-F'er"? Does grabbing your arm and asking "What's in your truck"? justify shooting somebody? Can you articulate why you feared for your life and limb? Other than maybe's and what if's?

That being said a lot depends on the police that show up at the scene and the local prosecutor. Some walk away from a brandishing or homicide charge, others, that we might think are justified, are locked up.

 

[67GT390FB]

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Wooley wrote:

I actually did not. I didn't want to be standing around waiting for a unit to show up while these two called whomever to come help out. I reported it on the non-emergency number but never actually spoke to anyone in person.

well i wouldn't have stuck around there either in this situation. give thought to calling the cops and filing a report even now after the incident is over. its unlikely that these guys learned their lesson from you and will probably rob someone else.

your description including the shape of your flashlight bezel because it most likely left a mark could help id these guys before they rob someone else or in case they already have.



joe

 

[Wooley]

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Nah, we just need to educate and train people to defend themselves. An armed population polices itself.

 

[357SigFan]

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One other thing to consider is in a fight, if one or more people attack you, you can EASILY be seriously injured or killed if you end up on the ground, weapon or no. All it would take is a kick or three to the head and you're done, contrary to what the movies would have you believe. The fact that one of them grabbed you could stand as intent to harm, and having more than one BGyou could easily have been killed had you not had SOMETHING (in this case a flashlight).

 

[67GT390FB]

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Wooley wrote:

Nah, we just need to educate and train people to defend themselves. An armed population polices itself.

Until this long awaited day comes call the police. It was your right to defend yourself but its your responsibilty to file the report to potentially protect others.

I might have once been no harm no foul i kicked the bad guys a$$, until a female friend related the following story to me.

A guy in college w/ her tried to rape her. she got away and reported it and was talking to one of her roommates about it and the girl admitted that the guy had done the same to her a few weeks before my friends incident. my friend almost kicked this girls a$$ for not saying anything because by not filing a report she was almost raped by the same guy.

Take the story for what you will it and 75 cents will get you a newspaper.

 

[Citizen]

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I think you would have been on shaky legal ground to draw,but on solid tactical ground. At that distance, you can't wait for him to pull a knife before you draw. He could easily plant it in your chest before you draw if you wait to see the knife when he is that close. Legally, you assaulted the guy. Tactically, you did the right thing. The law cannotenvision every scenario possible. This leaves openings. Even without gaps in the statutory and case law,it is open to how a prosecutor chooses to interpret the "facts" he receives.

My understanding is that there needs to be three elements present to justify resorting to deadly forcepportunity, ability, and jeopardy. He has to be close enough to employ whatever deadly force he's got--gun, knife, bludgeon;he has to have a weapon, superior numbers, you on the ground unable to roll with a punch or kick, etc.; he has to be doing something(s) that makes a reasonable person fearful of death or grave bodily injury. If you haven't studied this subject, do so. I haven't covered everything here.

You can look up the VA brandishing statute for more info on the legality. There is an exception to illegally brandishing that has to do with self-defense.

I think you were "interviewed" when you were asked about the truck in an unfriendly tone. Muggers use the same tactic in asking if you have a match or the time of day. I think he was testing you to see if you were a sheep who he could overwhelm, or somebody who might fight back.The next time you get a question like that,go toCondition Orange at the instantyou here the question. Tell himclearly that you don't want any trouble, orwant to be left alone,andchange yourtactical location for something better. He may well decide to gofor easier pickings. Whatever you do, recognize that there ispotentially a very serious threat when you hear that sort of question in those circumstances. Something similar happened to a VCDL member outside a movie theater,I think lastOct or Nov.You could check the VCDLe-mail alert archives.

You can find out a little bit more about this by hunting around on the web for keywords like "criminal interview" and "pre-assaultive behavoir cues."

You might also try the website, http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com.

I think www.firearmstactical.comhassome info that may be applicable on their homepage, also.

 

[Flowmaster]

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i carry a 4 D battery maglite in my car, between the driver's seat and the door. if anything happens, hopefully i can give someone a beatdown with that.

 

[Shooter45]

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I have a female cousin that was attacked and robed yrs ago in a grocery store parking lot while holding a bag of groceries in one hand and her infant daughter in the other. The two low lifes had total disregard as to the safety of the baby when they cold cocked her in the head and took her purse. Fortunately the baby was not hurt and she eventually recovered from her concussioun.

Once the BG illegally put his hands on you, my intial concern would had been for my safty and fear for my life. I think that any individual alone, out numbered by two male thugs in which one has agressively grabed you, would reasonably be in fear of their life and physical well being. This thing could had easily turned into an aducction and or worse.

Therefore your concern should be backing off and stoping the threat by any means necessary and of course retaining your fire arm from the assailents in the meantime, Period.

Fortunately things worked out.

Shooter45

 

[Wooley]

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Thanks for the brain food everyone. Kinda makes you think eh?