Detained on the strip

[marshaul]

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VegasGeorge wrote:

However, there are lots of instances where I don't want our Metro officers to feel totally constrained by legal technicalities.  Their job is to protect me...

Funny, the Supreme Court of the US doesn't agree with you there.

 

[wayneco]

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Hey marshaul, nice to see you over here on the NV board.

wayneco

 

[joeschmo]

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I am new here, but after reading this thread, I have a couple things I want to say.

First off, why do you keep saying that dash cam? How do you even know Metro has dash cameras? (Here's a hint - they don't)

Secondly, you state that they told you on suspiscion of armed robbery was thier reason for stop. What makes you think they made it up? How do you know that there was not some armed robbery at some point during the day where the suspect's description was the same as yours? How do you know that the officers were not told to BOLO for an armed robbery suspect matching your description?

Also, since you seem to be trying to force a "pattern" of 'illegal" stops, and have posted that on a message board, should you end up filing a civil lawsuit, I can all but guarantee your postings will come up, and with them, I can also be pretty sure that a jury of your peers may be unlikely to decide the case in your favor. Just something to think about.

 

[marshaul]

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wayneco wrote:

Hey marshaul, nice to see you over here on the NV board.

wayneco

Nice to see you too.

I get all over this forum.

 

[timf343]

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joeschmo wrote:

I am new here, but after reading this thread, I have a couple things I want to say.

First off, why do you keep saying that dash cam? How do you even know Metro has dash cameras? (Here's a hint - they don't)

Secondly, you state that they told you on suspiscion of armed robbery was thier reason for stop. What makes you think they made it up? How do you know that there was not some armed robbery at some point during the day where the suspect's description was the same as yours? How do you know that the officers were not told to BOLO for an armed robbery suspect matching your description?

Also, since you seem to be trying to force a "pattern" of 'illegal" stops, and have posted that on a message board, should you end up filing a civil lawsuit, I can all but guarantee your postings will come up, and with them, I can also be pretty sure that a jury of your peers may be unlikely to decide the case in your favor. Just something to think about.

1.) I found that out and posted as much on this very thread. Read back a page or two and you'll see that downtown area command confirmed there are no such dash cameras. I hope there is a recording somewhere to prevent any "testi-lying" by law enforcement should this go to court - it is my intention to follow through to that end.

2.) The officer admitted there were no armed robberies, no threatened armed robberies, and I did not match the description of any suspects. I asked them this specifically and said as much in the very same paragraph as I explained their absurd and made-up "suspicion" - actually, the very next sentence explain this. Perhaps you would enjoy reading the entire post. I know it's long, but this question has already been answered.

3.) I'm not trying to "force" a pattern of illegal stops; I was trying to demonstrate a pattern of illegal stops. Again, had you read my entire post, and the subsequent posts on this thread, you would have seen my purpose is to put an end to these illegal stops. Another forum member, who I've only met once, was similarly detained in his own neighborhood in the middle of the day, far from any tourist area.

I was taking a walk. I chose the location I did because I figured with the high saturation of police officers I would be seen. I, however, did nothing illegal, suspicious or unusual. I was merely walking. I expected NOT to be stopped as I haven't been stopped for more than 2 years OCing here in Las Vegas, but knew that if Metro does in fact have such a pattern of abuse, I would see it that night.

And I'm not trying to win any financial awards here. My purpose is solely intended to put an end to unconstitutional and illegal behavior by Las Vegas Metro Police Dept.

Tim

 

[irish]

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After recommending Nevada Shooters on this board I now feel it is full of irresponsible, immature and uninformed people. Sorry. As evidenced here by people's responses to my sound advice http://www.nevadashooters.com/showthread.php?t=3846

My offer still stands to video any and all future outings.

 

[Vegassteve]

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joeschmo wrote:

Also, since you seem to be trying to force a "pattern" of 'illegal" stops, and have posted that on a message board, should you end up filing a civil lawsuit, I can all but guarantee your postings will come up, and with them, I can also be pretty sure that a jury of your peers may be unlikely to decide the case in your favor. Just something to think about.

Sort of like al those pesky black folks that kept trying to go to school and ride the front of the bus.

 

[R a Z o R]

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Topless Disneyland Strip visiting sheep must not be frightened by the informed and liberty& freedomloving citizenry of the U.S.A.

Amasing Tim , thanks for your courage.

We will be visiting in August for her birthday . It's her 1st trip out west . I just posted about carrying a pocket knife while in Las Vegas and read about your expience .

 

[joeschmo]

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timf343 wrote:

joeschmo wrote:

I am new here, but after reading this thread, I have a couple things I want to say.

First off, why do you keep saying that dash cam? How do you even know Metro has dash cameras? (Here's a hint - they don't)

Secondly, you state that they told you on suspiscion of armed robbery was thier reason for stop. What makes you think they made it up? How do you know that there was not some armed robbery at some point during the day where the suspect's description was the same as yours? How do you know that the officers were not told to BOLO for an armed robbery suspect matching your description?

Also, since you seem to be trying to force a "pattern" of 'illegal" stops, and have posted that on a message board, should you end up filing a civil lawsuit, I can all but guarantee your postings will come up, and with them, I can also be pretty sure that a jury of your peers may be unlikely to decide the case in your favor. Just something to think about.

1.) I found that out and posted as much on this very thread. Read back a page or two and you'll see that downtown area command confirmed there are no such dash cameras. I hope there is a recording somewhere to prevent any "testi-lying" by law enforcement should this go to court - it is my intention to follow through to that end.

2.) The officer admitted there were no armed robberies, no threatened armed robberies, and I did not match the description of any suspects. I asked them this specifically and said as much in the very same paragraph as I explained their absurd and made-up "suspicion" - actually, the very next sentence explain this. Perhaps you would enjoy reading the entire post. I know it's long, but this question has already been answered.

3.) I'm not trying to "force" a pattern of illegal stops; I was trying to demonstrate a pattern of illegal stops. Again, had you read my entire post, and the subsequent posts on this thread, you would have seen my purpose is to put an end to these illegal stops. Another forum member, who I've only met once, was similarly detained in his own neighborhood in the middle of the day, far from any tourist area.

I was taking a walk. I chose the location I did because I figured with the high saturation of police officers I would be seen. I, however, did nothing illegal, suspicious or unusual. I was merely walking. I expected NOT to be stopped as I haven't been stopped for more than 2 years OCing here in Las Vegas, but knew that if Metro does in fact have such a pattern of abuse, I would see it that night.

And I'm not trying to win any financial awards here. My purpose is solely intended to put an end to unconstitutional and illegal behavior by Las Vegas Metro Police Dept.

Tim

Alright, here is a tip - the next time you get stopped, don't tell the officer how to do his/her job. You have not been trained on law enforcement policies and procedures nor have you gone to law school. Even if you feel the are in the wrong, if you attempt in any way, shape, or form to tell them how to do thier job what what they "must do according to so and so law" it will make it ten times worse for you. If you wish, file a complaint afterwords. Trying to take it up with the officers on scene will not do any sort of good for you.

Also, since you seen to not like identifying yourself to law enforcement when stopped, I CANNOT WAIT until you get pulled over for speeding and refuse to provide your information, if you chose not to. I will enjoy reading your thread about that once you get out of CCDC or the LV City Jail.

Have fun with your little "crusade"

 

[Citizen]

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joeschmo wrote:

SNIP Even if you feel the are in the wrong, if you attempt in any way, shape, or form to tell them how to do thier job what what they "must do according to so and so law" it will make it ten times worse for you.

I also recommend being polite with police, to a certain degree anyway.

However, nothing in the 4th Amendment authorizes police to make things ten times worse, or even a little worse if the detainee argues the legality when the policeare performing an illegal detention.

 

[Vegassteve]

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joeschmo wrote:

Alright, here is a tip - the next time you get stopped, don't tell the officer how to do his/her job. You have not been trained on law enforcement policies and procedures nor have you gone to law school. Even if you feel the are in the wrong, if you attempt in any way, shape, or form to tell them how to do thier job what what they "must do according to so and so law" it will make it ten times worse for you. If you wish, file a complaint afterwords. Trying to take it up with the officers on scene will not do any sort of good for you.

Also, since you seen to not like identifying yourself to law enforcement when stopped, I CANNOT WAIT until you get pulled over for speeding and refuse to provide your information, if you chose not to. I will enjoy reading your thread about that once you get out of CCDC or the LV City Jail.

Have fun with your little "crusade"

Are you a LEO?

Tim and others of us here are very well versed in our rights. A traffic stop for speeding and showing a DL is much different than being stopped for NO REASON while on the street.



Maybe you are ready to live in a country of show us your papers, but many of us are not.

 

[Phssthpok]

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joeschmo wrote:

<snip>

Even if you feel the are in the wrong, if you attempt in any way, shape, or form to tell them how to do thier job what what they "must do according to so and so law" it will make it ten times worse for you. If you wish, file a complaint afterwords. Trying to take it up with the officers on scene will not do any sort of good for you.

<snip>

Here's the problem I have with people who think and believe the way you do:

In the state of Oregon it is not a defense against a charge of 'resisting arrest' if the arrest is illegal.

Think about that one for a moment. IT. IS. NOT. A. DEFENSE. EVEN. IF. THE. ARREST. IS. ILLEGAL.

A police officer could be beating the ever living (bleep) out of you, and regardless if you FEAR FOR YOUR LIFE or not, it is a CRIME to resist in any way shape or form if he claims to be arresting you. You are required to just lay there and take the beating, and file a complaint later..........if you live.

Now... admittedly, this example is taking your sentiment to the extreme, but this begs the question... just how much violation of ones rights should one be forced to endure before they are justified in standing their ground against such an assault?

You can apologize for the police all you want, but at the end of the day you are advocating, in application, complete supplication to jack-booted thugs, up to and including the extreme of my example.








Shame on you.

Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. And moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue.
-Barry Goldwater

 

[GoldCoaster]

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Of course he's a cop, that was starkly obvious from his first post.

 

[Citizen]

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GoldCoaster wrote:

Of course he's a cop, that was starkly obvious from his first post.

If he is, that last little comment about "ten times worse" becomes intimidation.

 

[joeschmo]

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Citizen wrote:

GoldCoaster wrote:

Of course he's a cop, that was starkly obvious from his first post.

If he is, that last little comment about "ten times worse" becomes intimidation.

I am not a cop, I just have common sense and know how to properly pick my battles. Like I said, fight it in the courts, not out on the streets. Have peaceful protests and demonstrations all you want - I am all for your right to open carry and think more people should do it.

Constantly asking if you are free to leave isn't going to do anything for you. Ask once, if they say you are not, you don't need to keep asking every 5 minutes. Once you are free to leave, they will let you know. Same thing goes for the siezure of your property. If you do not consent, tell them. If they then sieze your property, reaffirm that you do not consent one more time. After than, be quiet until you are released. If anything, doing those above things and being polite but firm with your rights will give you a better case.

 

[Phssthpok]

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joeschmo wrote:

Constantly asking if you are free to leave isn't going to do anything for you. Ask once, if they say you are not, you don't need to keep asking every 5 minutes. Once you are free to leave, they will let you know. Same thing goes for the siezure of your property. If you do not consent, tell them. If they then sieze your property, reaffirm that you do not consent one more time. After than, be quiet until you are released. If anything, doing those above things and being polite but firm with your rights will give you a better case.

I disagree.

Silence begets consent.

If you do not consistently repeat your objections, and non-consent, then the argument could be made that your silence indicates a terminations of your objections, AKA: CONSENT.

 

[Citizen]

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joeschmo wrote:

Citizen wrote:

GoldCoaster wrote:

Of course he's a cop, that was starkly obvious from his first post.

If he is, that last little comment about "ten times worse" becomes intimidation.

I am not a cop, I just have common sense and know how to properly pick my battles. Like I said, fight it in the courts, not out on the streets. Have peaceful protests and demonstrations all you want - I am all for your right to open carry and think more people should do it.

Constantly asking if you are free to leave isn't going to do anything for you. Ask once, if they say you are not, you don't need to keep asking every 5 minutes. Once you are free to leave, they will let you know. Same thing goes for the siezure of your property. If you do not consent, tell them. If they then sieze your property, reaffirm that you do not consent one more time. After than, be quiet until you are released. If anything, doing those above things and being polite but firm with your rights will give you a better case.

Not to offend, (well maybe just a little) but your advice might be better received if it was not offered as criticism.

 

[Citizen]

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Phssthpok wrote:

joeschmo wrote:

Constantly asking if you are free to leave isn't going to do anything for you. Ask once, if they say you are not, you don't need to keep asking every 5 minutes. Once you are free to leave, they will let you know. Same thing goes for the siezure of your property. If you do not consent, tell them. If they then sieze your property, reaffirm that you do not consent one more time. After than, be quiet until you are released. If anything, doing those above things and being polite but firm with your rights will give you a better case.

I disagree.

Silence begets consent.

If you do not consistently repeat your objections, and non-consent, then the argument could be made that your silence indicates a terminations of your objections, AKA: CONSENT.

Qui tacet consentire

I don't know how much weight that carries at law anymore. For sure, it didn't work for Thomas More in the 1500's. Convicted of high treason against Henry VIII, he lost his head.

Trial transcript wherein Sir Thomas quotes the maxim: http://tinyurl.com/nb7jpy

 

[timf343]

imported post

joeschmo wrote:

Alright, here is a tip - the next time you get stopped, don't tell the officer how to do his/her job. You have not been trained on law enforcement policies and procedures nor have you gone to law school. Even if you feel the are in the wrong, if you attempt in any way, shape, or form to tell them how to do thier job what what they "must do according to so and so law" it will make it ten times worse for you. If you wish, file a complaint afterwords. Trying to take it up with the officers on scene will not do any sort of good for you.

Also, since you seen to not like identifying yourself to law enforcement when stopped, I CANNOT WAIT until you get pulled over for speeding and refuse to provide your information, if you chose not to. I will enjoy reading your thread about that once you get out of CCDC or the LV City Jail.

Have fun with your little "crusade"

I did not resist them physically in any way. I did not resist arrest. I merely demanded to be let go. Demands (already in handcuffs) with no physical resistance whatsoever hardly amount to resisting arrest.

I don't need to go to law school to read and understand my basic civil rights. I was being peaceful, until the police, with guns drawn, forced me to stop my peaceful activity and they handcuffed me.

As for getting pulled over, as VegasSteve mentioned above, I will hand them my ID. Again, had you actually read the posts than just skimmed them for the juicy stuff, you'd have seen I only carry my ID while driving, as required by law. See, that's the recurring theme. I work within the bounds of the law. The police work outside it.

joeschmo wrote:

I am not a cop, I just have common sense and know how to properly pick my battles. Like I said, fight it in the courts, not out on the streets. Have peaceful protests and demonstrations all you want - I am all for your right to open carry and think more people should do it.

Constantly asking if you are free to leave isn't going to do anything for you. Ask once, if they say you are not, you don't need to keep asking every 5 minutes. Once you are free to leave, they will let you know. Same thing goes for the siezure of your property. If you do not consent, tell them. If they then sieze your property, reaffirm that you do not consent one more time. After than, be quiet until you are released. If anything, doing those above things and being polite but firm with your rights will give you a better case.

Who are you then? You show up randomly and your first post protests the way I handled myself... Grow a pair and don't hide behind some anonymous pseudonym.

When your rights are violated, feel free to handle it however you like. I chose to repeat my demands throughout the encounter. This thread has been about 4th, 5th and 6th amendment rights, but repeating my rights, that's my 1st amendment right. I guess your position is probably I don't deserve those rights either.

Citizen wrote:

I also recommend being polite with police, to a certain degree anyway.

I was completely polite throughout most of the stop, "Please stop do not take my gun. I do not consent to having my property seized.", for example. I did not curse once, nor did I do anything else "rude". I merely asserted my rights and protested their continued violation thereof.

 

[Citizen]

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timf343 wrote:

Citizen wrote:

I also recommend being polite with police, to a certain degree anyway.

I was completely polite throughout most of the stop, "Please stop do not take my gun. I do not consent to having my property seized.", for example. I did not curse once, nor did I do anything else "rude". I merely asserted my rights and protested their continued violation thereof.

Good.

But, even if you had been rude, I wouldn't have objected. Its a tactical issue, not a legal one, as long as it doesn't get into disorderly conduct.

The whole "polite" thing, in my mind is really only for two reasons

1) To not provoke theminto plantingevidence or making a false arrest which would surely be lied about later.

2) Being polite makes you look good in court, the press, etc. "See. I'm the nice, meek, polite, AGGRIEVED one. Those mean,nasty cops, as you can hear on my recording right here, were the uncivilized thugs. See how far they depart from the image of Officer Friendly. See? Ooooo. I'm the victim. Lookhow they treat people. They might treat you or your wife that way if you don't send a message to all of them." Etc.

Aside from those, if your rights are being violated, andyou think you can get away with it, howl like the rudest (but notdisorderly) banshee. Why on Gods green earth anybodyexpects a free man to not object noisily is beyond me.*

Understand that I am not really advocating that. Theconsequences of a false arrest and conviction are too serious.Just the arrest record, even if not convicted. I am moredistinguishing betweena requirement to be polite, and self-determined tactical decision to be politein order to obtain the tactical benefits that go alongwith it.


*What? Do they thinkall peoplearesheep? For Christ's sake, you'd think the OCd gun would be a clue that the detainee is not a sheep.