EMNofSeattle
Regular Member
I can draft one.
is how I'd do it. of course you might want to proofread before taking my letter.
I hereby release my preemption letter to public domain, use it if you want.
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Courts, encounters with locking up pistols while visiting.
- Thread starter Freedom1Man
- Start date
I can draft one.
is how I'd do it. of course you might want to proofread before taking my letter.
I hereby release my preemption letter to public domain, use it if you want.
Bill Starks
State Researcher
Bonney Lake "Justice Center" has a sign as well. The Chief of Police was walking up as I was standing there reading it. I was told as long as I wasn't going into the courtroom, I was fine.
Blueslant
Regular Member
Well, thank you then. I was there yesterday and all I saw was a sign on the door asking that I call the desk before I walked in and provided a number. I was told thank you, walked in, locked up, and carried on. No issues, no problems. Was very smooth in Yakima Courthouse yesterday.
BigDave
Opt-Out Members
This must be a different twist of asking to call before entering??
Was this the County Or City Jail or the County Court House?
Happy to hear others are using it.
CitizenJohn
Regular Member
Checking a Firearm at a Courthouse
I have read the threads on this subject with some interest, as recently the Clark County Juvenile Justice Center finally installed lock boxes in compliance with RCW 9.41.300. I have also faced some of the same problems as other thread contributors when clearing security at the Clark County Courthouse. Non LEO security personnel required that I produce a CPL and WDL and also required that I leave my CPL in the lockbox with my firearm. I haven’t decided just how I am going to respond to these local procedure non compliance issues but I estimate that a lot of municipalities in Washington State are in non compliance with this particular RCW. Interestingly enough, the Juvenile Justice Center’s newly installed lock box procedures accurately reflect the RCW and the security personnel that work the checkpoint are the same security department that work the County Courthouse. Go figure.
On a slightly different twist, I have read that some contributors hold that IF the firearm goes in a lockbox and the lockbox is locked with a key, then the lockbox key MUST be provided to the FIREARM OWNER. Scrutinizing the RCW a little closer: The RCW ALLOWS two procedures for securing a [checked] firearm: 1) [Lock it up and give the owner the key.]; 2) [Designate an official to receive the firearm for safekeeping]. The RCW is silent as to HOW an official receives weapons for safekeeping. So, if the LEO or security personnel (the official) has the owner lock their firearm in a lockbox and then keeps the key and gives the owner a receipt (token, card, etc.) for the pistol, then he is in fact, receiving the firearm for safekeeping. As pointed out by another contributor, the RCW doesn't stipulate HOW the pistol is retained (locked up, not locked up, in a different room, etc.) if an official receives the pistol for safekeeping but does state that the lock box and the [receiving official] be located in the same building as the court. Either way, I would say that in this example the RCW is being complied with.
To the deputy that stated that [the pistol had to remain in the holster], I would say that the state preemption law (RCW 9.41.290) prohibits municipalities from making up their own firearm laws unless those laws are specifically allowed by the RCW's (none in this case) and furthermore, there is no RCW requiring that a pistol be carried/transported/stored in a holster. IMHO keeping the pistol holstered is a safe way for a person to disarm themselves, especially in a public setting and I support LEO's and security personnel suggesting that technique be used. However, keeping a pistol holstered is not always possible/desireable as in the case of most purse-carries or where removing the holster requires some form of disrobing that is awkward or undesirable by the owner. One should be very careful with muzzle control when the pistol is being handled - whether the pistol is in a holster or not.
I have read the threads on this subject with some interest, as recently the Clark County Juvenile Justice Center finally installed lock boxes in compliance with RCW 9.41.300. I have also faced some of the same problems as other thread contributors when clearing security at the Clark County Courthouse. Non LEO security personnel required that I produce a CPL and WDL and also required that I leave my CPL in the lockbox with my firearm. I haven’t decided just how I am going to respond to these local procedure non compliance issues but I estimate that a lot of municipalities in Washington State are in non compliance with this particular RCW. Interestingly enough, the Juvenile Justice Center’s newly installed lock box procedures accurately reflect the RCW and the security personnel that work the checkpoint are the same security department that work the County Courthouse. Go figure.
On a slightly different twist, I have read that some contributors hold that IF the firearm goes in a lockbox and the lockbox is locked with a key, then the lockbox key MUST be provided to the FIREARM OWNER. Scrutinizing the RCW a little closer: The RCW ALLOWS two procedures for securing a [checked] firearm: 1) [Lock it up and give the owner the key.]; 2) [Designate an official to receive the firearm for safekeeping]. The RCW is silent as to HOW an official receives weapons for safekeeping. So, if the LEO or security personnel (the official) has the owner lock their firearm in a lockbox and then keeps the key and gives the owner a receipt (token, card, etc.) for the pistol, then he is in fact, receiving the firearm for safekeeping. As pointed out by another contributor, the RCW doesn't stipulate HOW the pistol is retained (locked up, not locked up, in a different room, etc.) if an official receives the pistol for safekeeping but does state that the lock box and the [receiving official] be located in the same building as the court. Either way, I would say that in this example the RCW is being complied with.
To the deputy that stated that [the pistol had to remain in the holster], I would say that the state preemption law (RCW 9.41.290) prohibits municipalities from making up their own firearm laws unless those laws are specifically allowed by the RCW's (none in this case) and furthermore, there is no RCW requiring that a pistol be carried/transported/stored in a holster. IMHO keeping the pistol holstered is a safe way for a person to disarm themselves, especially in a public setting and I support LEO's and security personnel suggesting that technique be used. However, keeping a pistol holstered is not always possible/desireable as in the case of most purse-carries or where removing the holster requires some form of disrobing that is awkward or undesirable by the owner. One should be very careful with muzzle control when the pistol is being handled - whether the pistol is in a holster or not.
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Thor80
Regular Member
I recently just got confirmation, (After reading your post I emailed the Spokane County Commissioners yesterday since I hadn't followed up since the Sheriff said he would recommend the procedure change.....) that the Spokane County Courthouse will no longer be holding CPL's while a concealed pistol is checked in, nor will they require a CPL to check an "Open Carried" pistol. (I was sent a copy of the "Gun Locker" procedures so it wasn't just heresay.) Spokane County still will require ID and to fill out the log to check the pistol. I know that not all people will agree with this, nor do I, but I don't see this portion being challenged/changed unless someone is denied access due to not carrying an ID in with them and the RCW's say they must provide lockers but isn't too specific about the procedures they can use to monitor the use of the lockers. That's a fight I'm not in a position to tackle at this current time.....
Anyway, as to your specific question about how you take care of it below is the steps I had to go through.
1. Emailed Commissioners since its a County Courthouse, I cant remember if they just ignored me or referred me to the Sheriff...
2. Emailed Sheriffs Dept since they are in charge of courthouse security, the Public Information Officer informed me that they wouldn't let anyone check in a pistol that didn't have a CPL and you would be denied entry to the courthouse by not being able to check in your pistol. This was even after I brought up that no CPL is required to OC and that the law states that they MUST allow for some sort of weapons check at the courthouse
3. Emailed back to the Commissioners expressing my disappointment in the correspondence with the Sheriff's PIO.
4. Eventually I received a phone call from the Spokane County Sheriff and we went back and forth on why this was an issue, I actually educated the Sheriff about the requirement for the lockers, he had initially thought it as a courtesy and I referred him to RCW 9.41.300. At the end of the discussion he agreed that the procedure could use changing/updating to remove the liability to the County by wrongly denying a locker to a non-cpl holder and he forwarded on his recommendation for a change to the Commissioners.
5. Received confirmation today from the counties "Director of Risk Management" that the procedure has already been changed and that it should have "ratification" from the Commissioners sometime in the next few weeks.
This entire process took about a year of me being gently persistent with pushing the issue. I would imagine that you may have a similar situation on your hands, just keep gently pushing. The biggest thing to bring up to them is the fact that a CPL is NOT REQUIRED to carry a pistol, only to CONCEAL it. I used a few examples such as someone with an expired CPL still wanting to OC until they got it renewed, an out of stater that moved here wanting to OC until a CPL was acquired and I brought up the liability for the county should they deny someone access to check a pistol at a courthouse since it is clear as day in law that they must provide it and this state does not require a "License to Carry" so they cannot deny based on something that doesn't exist.
Hope this helps a little, as BigDave did to me, I'll suggest starting with the Clark County Commissioners and go from there! Good Luck!
-Thor
Hey all, first post. I actually open carried to Spokane Superior Court a couple weeks ago. I received a key, locked it up, and kept the key. All of this was done right before you go through the metal detectors. I never noticed before the lock boxes on the wall to the left. I had no problem keeping the holster. I had to show ID and fill out on the log-in sheet with the date, my name, address, and phone number. Of course, I scribbled my address so it was illegible and "forgot" to write my area code down with my phone number (not 509). No one asked me for a CPL. I might go in one day to test them and refuse to give that information or show my license. We'll see, but it wasn't too much of a hassle.
brad98801
Regular Member
The issue with the Chelan county courthouse/jail has been cleared up,It was a big misunderstanding on my part Lol me being still fairly new to the carry scene they didn't understand what I was asking about the lock boxes but all has been cleared up and there IS lock boxes in the courthouse just outside the jail lobby for the public to use
TheDavid
Regular Member
No one ever go to king county court in kent?
okayrespond
New member
Everett Municipal Court
I went to the new Everett Municipal Court on the 20131105 with a friend who had court. I walked in to the clerk window and asked where the lock boxes were and what the procedure was on locking up my firearm. She said she didn't know where the lock boxes were and that I had to go see the security guard, which I did. I say to the security guard, "I need a lock box to secure my firearm please." He then replied "We don't have lock boxes." I say, "Oh, well I need in the court room, so...now what’s the procedure?" He then replies, "Go to the Police Department (next building over) they have lock boxes." I say, "Okay Thanks." Even though I am pretty sure the court office is supposed to supply the lock boxes, not the police department. But I figure...**** it...A lock box is a lock box right?!
I walk in to the Police Department and asked the clerk where the lock boxes are, that the security guard said that they would have. She looks at me funny and replies "hold on let me check." She comes back a few minutes and says they don't have lock boxes. I then return to the Court security guard and I tell him that the police officer clerk had no idea what I was talking about with the lock boxes. This point I am getting pretty irritated. Remind you I have been looking for a damn lock box for about 15 minutes now. I inform the security guard the law regarding lock boxes in court offices, which he didn't like. I then again ask him, "What am I supposed to do." He replies "I don't know it's not my problem.....go try the Snohomish County Building (which is adjacent to the court). Even though I wanted to yell at the security guard for saying what he said to me. I say to myself, just try the Snohomish County Building.
So I walk over to the building and ask the Sheriff if they had lock boxes, told him that I need to go to court with a friend. He said, "Yes we have lock boxes follow me." I follow him and I turn the corner and it's like finding the end to a rainbow hahaha LOCK BOXES! He asks me to remove the handgun and extra ammo I have on my hip and put it into the box. He then locks it.......Now this is the weird part......He then keeps the key, asks me for my I.D. and CPL and fills out a form for holding the gun (type of gun, caliber, name, address, phone number). He then hands me my CPL and ID and gives me a copy of the form. He says to me "Remington 1911 Huh?" Kinda thinking about it. He then says "When you come back I want to take a look at the pistol" I say okay. I return to the court office security guard, tell him his service and attitude was disrespectful and I wish I had it on tape. He then replies, "We have the lock boxes on order, (since the court was newly built) so chill out". I then said, “You couldn't have said that in the first place before being a dick" I enter the court room.
When I return for my handgun, (same Sheriff) he has me put it back on belt in the holster. Then tells me raise my hands and looks at my pistol. I thought it was weird at first, but then he told me he was interested in buying a Remington 1911 and just wanted to look at it.
All in All it was a ****** experience, besides the Sheriff very friendly and respectful even though he had me show my I.D. and CPL.
I went to the new Everett Municipal Court on the 20131105 with a friend who had court. I walked in to the clerk window and asked where the lock boxes were and what the procedure was on locking up my firearm. She said she didn't know where the lock boxes were and that I had to go see the security guard, which I did. I say to the security guard, "I need a lock box to secure my firearm please." He then replied "We don't have lock boxes." I say, "Oh, well I need in the court room, so...now what’s the procedure?" He then replies, "Go to the Police Department (next building over) they have lock boxes." I say, "Okay Thanks." Even though I am pretty sure the court office is supposed to supply the lock boxes, not the police department. But I figure...**** it...A lock box is a lock box right?!
I walk in to the Police Department and asked the clerk where the lock boxes are, that the security guard said that they would have. She looks at me funny and replies "hold on let me check." She comes back a few minutes and says they don't have lock boxes. I then return to the Court security guard and I tell him that the police officer clerk had no idea what I was talking about with the lock boxes. This point I am getting pretty irritated. Remind you I have been looking for a damn lock box for about 15 minutes now. I inform the security guard the law regarding lock boxes in court offices, which he didn't like. I then again ask him, "What am I supposed to do." He replies "I don't know it's not my problem.....go try the Snohomish County Building (which is adjacent to the court). Even though I wanted to yell at the security guard for saying what he said to me. I say to myself, just try the Snohomish County Building.
So I walk over to the building and ask the Sheriff if they had lock boxes, told him that I need to go to court with a friend. He said, "Yes we have lock boxes follow me." I follow him and I turn the corner and it's like finding the end to a rainbow hahaha LOCK BOXES! He asks me to remove the handgun and extra ammo I have on my hip and put it into the box. He then locks it.......Now this is the weird part......He then keeps the key, asks me for my I.D. and CPL and fills out a form for holding the gun (type of gun, caliber, name, address, phone number). He then hands me my CPL and ID and gives me a copy of the form. He says to me "Remington 1911 Huh?" Kinda thinking about it. He then says "When you come back I want to take a look at the pistol" I say okay. I return to the court office security guard, tell him his service and attitude was disrespectful and I wish I had it on tape. He then replies, "We have the lock boxes on order, (since the court was newly built) so chill out". I then said, “You couldn't have said that in the first place before being a dick" I enter the court room.
When I return for my handgun, (same Sheriff) he has me put it back on belt in the holster. Then tells me raise my hands and looks at my pistol. I thought it was weird at first, but then he told me he was interested in buying a Remington 1911 and just wanted to look at it.
All in All it was a ****** experience, besides the Sheriff very friendly and respectful even though he had me show my I.D. and CPL.
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devldogs55
Regular Member
Not there, but I'm headed to King Co. District Court in Auburn today - I'll let ya'll know how it goes.
devldogs55
Regular Member
Just returned from King Co. District Court in Auburn
I got a photo ticket in Auburn and I went in to take care of it today. When I walked in, I asked the screener at the metal detector for a lockbox for my 1911. She took me over to an officer that was very polite about the whole thing. I would say it was a great experience - but a couple of things could have gone better.
1. They insisted on seeing my DL and CPL before they would write me a receipt for the check-in.
2. They would not give me the key for the box despite me handing them a copy of the RCW I printed out
I didn't have time to argue or record anything, but I thought I would share my experience there with everyone.
I got a photo ticket in Auburn and I went in to take care of it today. When I walked in, I asked the screener at the metal detector for a lockbox for my 1911. She took me over to an officer that was very polite about the whole thing. I would say it was a great experience - but a couple of things could have gone better.
1. They insisted on seeing my DL and CPL before they would write me a receipt for the check-in.
2. They would not give me the key for the box despite me handing them a copy of the RCW I printed out
I didn't have time to argue or record anything, but I thought I would share my experience there with everyone.
Freedom1Man
Regular Member
Thanks for the heads up.
jfslicer
Regular Member
Went to the court house tuesday to pay a ticket. Here's a video:
http://youtu.be/vWqLJXBV10k
I was trying to be discreet with the camera so the video isn't fantastic. Also, I've not used the editing software before and could only figure out how to delete the segments that shared my personal information.
The marshal had a further conversation with me while I was paying my ticket that went like this:
Why don't you have an ID?
It's in my car.
Why don't you go get it for me?
(I shift my eyes from him to the lady ringing up my ticket.)
Are you pulling my leg right now? Do you have an ID?
No, it's in my car.
Then why don't you get it for me?
Because I'm dealing with this lady right now.
(She turned to him and said yeah he's paying his ticket.)
The encounter allowed me to talk to the security checkpoint lady at length about the law. She had her manual open and reading it by the time I left.
Retrieving the weapons was uneventful. I video'd that as well, but it's pretty boring.
http://youtu.be/vWqLJXBV10k
I was trying to be discreet with the camera so the video isn't fantastic. Also, I've not used the editing software before and could only figure out how to delete the segments that shared my personal information.
The marshal had a further conversation with me while I was paying my ticket that went like this:
Why don't you have an ID?
It's in my car.
Why don't you go get it for me?
(I shift my eyes from him to the lady ringing up my ticket.)
Are you pulling my leg right now? Do you have an ID?
No, it's in my car.
Then why don't you get it for me?
Because I'm dealing with this lady right now.
(She turned to him and said yeah he's paying his ticket.)
The encounter allowed me to talk to the security checkpoint lady at length about the law. She had her manual open and reading it by the time I left.
Retrieving the weapons was uneventful. I video'd that as well, but it's pretty boring.
I'm the new guy on he block so I have no idea whether or not you have to have ID to store a weapon in a lockbox at the courthouse. From what I understand the law says no such ID is required. From a pure liability standpoint I can see them not liking the idea of being responsible for a firearm if someone just leaves it there and forgets about it. This reminds me of another video that really shocked me. You may have seen this but have a look. There's a huge UH OH when this gentleman visits the Lynwood courthouse. Besides that though they also hassle him for his identification.
http://youtu.be/duf2MuiLZj4
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When I went to the Snohomish County Courthouse in Everett to get my CPL I took my daughter with me. I declared a knife I was carrying (hadn't started carrying my gun yet) which they put in a baggie. I then went through the metal detector with my daughter's stroller and it alarmed. The guard said I was fine and flagged me along. I could have easily had some kind of weapon hidden in the stroller, but he didn't bother to check. I was the only person walking in at that moment. What a joke. The only thing that made me comfortable about being there was the deputies all over.
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Sent from my UAV using Disposition Matrix 2.0
Freedom1Man
Regular Member
From the video it looks like the Evergreen district courthouse in Monroe.
That whole ID thing is new and totally BS. I am the one who schooled them awhile back when I was going to the court house over a bogus arrest for OC. I was never asked for ID. I was simply given a quarter to operate the locker, told to keep the key (during my visit), and to return the quarter once I retrieved my pistols. They didn't even ask for my CPL on the concealed one either. This is some bad mo-jo now that this is happening. I might have to take a trip up there to school them again.
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jfslicer
Regular Member
It is. Good luck!
kparker
Regular Member
Not quite. Rather, the law simply doesn't say there is any such requirement, so that those running the court facilities who add on additional requirements are simply doing it outside the law, with no legal authority.
BigDave
Opt-Out Members
A quick note on securing your firearm while attending court.
It's the courts responsibility to secure the firearm not the police department The place must be with the building where the court is located. Leaving the court to go to the police department to secure it is not covered by law and can turn you away.
Another note if you were going to the police department to conduct business inside a secure area (public cannot freely access) to include visiting someone in jail then the jail administrator must provide someone to take responsibility or provide a lockbox while you are there.
So when checking different location make sure you are in the right place to make such request
I've never been to Lynnwood court or pd but from google maps it appears they are 2 different building so not only did the pd make an epic fail so did the poster.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
It's the courts responsibility to secure the firearm not the police department The place must be with the building where the court is located. Leaving the court to go to the police department to secure it is not covered by law and can turn you away.
Another note if you were going to the police department to conduct business inside a secure area (public cannot freely access) to include visiting someone in jail then the jail administrator must provide someone to take responsibility or provide a lockbox while you are there.
So when checking different location make sure you are in the right place to make such request
I've never been to Lynnwood court or pd but from google maps it appears they are 2 different building so not only did the pd make an epic fail so did the poster.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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