Birmingham Police Force Open Carriers To Leave STARBUCKS!!!!

[LMTD]

Ways people think open carry laws will change, an opinion formed observing this and many other forums:

1. Through exposure and education of the public, greater acceptance for legislative efforts.
2. Through legislative efforts based upon constitutional issues.
3 Through law suits and case law.

Thoughts behind why people have began to open carry:

1. Draw attention to the cause so they may educate
2. Significant increase in comfort and access over almost all forms of CC
3. Draw attention to themselves as they are lonely
4. Potential income from lawsuits and fame

These are just a few observations that are overly broad and different persons will have differing combinations.

Not knowing the OP and group I again can speak only from observation, but in what is shown in the video, I would think that in this case 1 & 1 apply, they were there to educate and draw positive attention. Hands down they did a fantastic job. There are times to show great resistance and there are times not to at all. The OP's groups members arrest IMHO has nothing to do with what should have been done.

That cop was very polite as were the OC'ers. While it is good to have video of indignant bead butting for the impact statement, lots of LEO's are not that way nor are most folks. This video clearly eliminates the "if you were just nice instead of a smartass, the police would not have bothered you like that" so often can accompany the responses to OC situations. It clearly shows, the good guys can be decent, yet politely abused, its not just the show off's!

Thank you to the OP and group for showing the positive side of OC and confrontations with the problems associated with it, don't change a thing, it is a very important part of the puzzle that shall bring change.

 

[AL Ranger]

All the arguing and squabbling in the ranks gets us nowhere. Being a vet, I understand...we did all that in the military as well. But, right now, that is all "woulda, coulda, shoulda!" Moving beyond the past, what is the next step? Will you guys make another attempt at the same Starbucks? That would be my first response! The female officer called it in, not a civilian customer or the management. How about facing your accuser? Have you tracked down the female officer and confronted her? You weren't charged with anything and maybe next time you should involve the management and ask their permission to stay if the police ask you to "disperse"! Of course, these are just my ideas and my opinions! So, do what you deem appropriate for the situation you find yourselves in and...Carry On! BTW, Hollowpoint, glad to see you around the forums again. Jonathon, almost didn't recognize you!

 

[Deanimator]

There are two ways to deal with these sorts of problems, depending upon the state of mind of the police.

Education - The police actually don't KNOW what the law is. PAFOA in PA has been instrumental in getting OC (and other firearms related matters) put on the annual required training schedule. OFCC is similarly trying to do proactive outreach to police agencies. This only works when there's good faith on the part of the police. What it does when there isn't, is set up the next step.

Deterrence - When individual police or their agencies don't want to know, or don't care what the law is, violating people's rights has to be made more painful than respecting them.

Formal complaints against individual LEOs create a paper trail. They give that particular LEO a history that can come back to bite him if he misbehaves in the future. LEOs who misbehave usually have a history of misbehavior. Not confronting that misbehavior is positive reinforcement for them to continue to misbehave. Even if the LEO's agency ignores or even sanctions his misbehavior, a formal complaint is discoverable in future criminal and civil proceedings against him.

Lawsuits, especially lawsuits against individual officers make somebody actually accountable for their actions. When the LEO actually has something to lose, he can no longer afford to be cavalier about the law and rights of gun owners. Successful suits against agencies create internal and external political blowback against the leadership of those agencies. They create evidence of a pattern of behavior in future proceedings.


The bottom line is that when police won't obey the law, it's a war. Success in war requires careful planning and a singularity of purpose. When you don't DEMAND that the police obey the law, you get New Orleans and Chicago. I'm from Chicago and have seen the Chicago PD in action. You don't want that where you live.

 

[McX]

you would think that maybe Starbucks would show some support, maybe remind them that they follow state policy, and welcome those who come there.

 

[kwikrnu]

you would think that maybe Starbucks would show some support, maybe remind them that they follow state policy, and welcome those who come there.

From what I understand Starbucks doesn't want to get involved anymore than issuing their statement that lawful carry is accepted.

 

[VAopencarry]

Interested to hear the next course of action, if any.

 

[kwikrnu]

Interested to hear the next course of action, if any.

Here is a guess. They will open carry at starbucks with their video camera and run away when the good cop tells them.

 

[AL Ranger]

Kwikrnu, charging through the legal system like a bull through a china shop may be your idea of fighting for your rights but it's not everybody's. What do the legal battles here have to do with Tennessee? Nothing done in Alabama is going to affect or change the laws in your state anyway! Let those of us here in Alabama fight the legal system our way and you handle TN law your way. My hope is that you back us in our efforts with encouragement and solidarity while we try to make changes here. Getting us riled up is not going to make us change our efforts or styles and it will just make you persona non grata in any Alabama OC forum.

 

[kwikrnu]

Kwikrnu, charging through the legal system like a bull through a china shop may be your idea of fighting for your rights but it's not everybody's. What do the legal battles here have to do with Tennessee? Nothing done in Alabama is going to affect or change the laws in your state anyway! Let those of us here in Alabama fight the legal system our way and you handle TN law your way. My hope is that you back us in our efforts with encouragement and solidarity while we try to make changes here. Getting us riled up is not going to make us change our efforts or styles and it will just make you persona non grata in any Alabama OC forum.

So, what is the next course of action? They got arrested one week and the next went back and ran away. If history is any indicator of future action I say they carry openly and run away in the future. Everyone is free to make their own decisions, but I'm going to comment on them.

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original story

 

[ixtow]

You are right. I don't plan continually escalating armed confrontations until I get the reactions I want and then sue and take the first settlement that is offered, doing nothing for gun right, only getting a paycheck. Sure, you can call me a sissy for that. I just carry a properly holstered handgun in daily life for the defense of myself and my family.

I guess you didn't read it.

Most of your commentary is flagrantly inflammatory, and presumes to know his mind. It's so cool how you can read peoples' minds... I wish I could do that!

Carrying your properly holstered handgun would get you clubbed to death if not for people who came before you to push the limits. Kwikrnu makes sure that the limit is moved forward, and that you are not on the bleeding edge freedom's intrusions into oppressive norms.

You have 'crazies' like him to thank that almost no one even notices when you carry your 'properly holstered handgun.'

Your attitude is no different from the Liberals who insult and defame the soldiers who keep them safe to practice their ingratitude. You can rearrange the picture in an attempt to justify your hatred for the very 'sort of people' who make your life easy for you, just try to remember, that attitude is what laid the groundwork for things like NFA.

The first people to start 're-discovering' OC were treated just as Kwikrnu is being treated now. All the same excuses, all the same half-baked Brady-esque cowardice painted gold and worn like a badge of honor...

I'm still itching to hear about the arrests on the 4th. These hatemongers' tangents in suspense aren't really productive. It's already been hashed and re-hashed elsewhere. I have far more respect for Kwikrnu than those who mock or deride him. He's pushing the limit, you're just enjoying the fruits of his actions and insulting him for it.

 

[ixtow]

So, what is the next course of action? They got arrested one week and the next went back and ran away. If history is any indicator of future action I say they carry openly and run away in the future. Everyone is free to make their own decisions, but I'm going to comment on them.

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original story

With all consideration Kwik, they probably cannot afford it. I know I can't. Right now, they are under the weight of being imprisoned by pretense. That's how it always works with the law. It has grown to a point that while waiting for your day in court to abate your false charges, you can be thrown in jail until that day arrives. Even if the charges are thrown out, the punishment will already be meted, and their lives ruined without any recourse or recompense. Sovereign Immunity and all.

When your enemy has created this convoluted trap of excuses to imprison you under false pretense, run away to fight another day is not a bad idea. It sure beats rotting in jail, unable to ever fight at all.

 

[Kingfish]

I guess you didn't read it.

Most of your commentary is flagrantly inflammatory, and presumes to know his mind. It's so cool how you can read peoples' minds... I wish I could do that!

Check out the 5 or 6 mega threads on the TN forum about Kwik and then come back and see if you can justify your statement. It is going to take a while but if you do the research you will discover exactly what I am talking about. He has admitted in his own posts all I have said.

 

[eye95]

I don't see that what kwikrnu has done as promoting the right to carry. I see it as feeding the ideas that gun owners are gun nuts.

IMO, he is already persona non grata in the Alabama sub-forum. I have slapped him and his inflammatory and hateful rhetoric on ignore.

 

[Deacon Blues]

Carrying your properly holstered handgun would get you clubbed to death if not for people who came before you to push the limits.

I don't think Kwik was the one to set the precedent for OCing a properly holstered handgun on the streets. Kwik set the precedent for wearing a balaclava and carrying an orange AK pistol (so glad I have that option).

I'm still itching to hear about the arrests on the 4th.

In short, two of our members armed themselves in a way that you would think Kwik would approve of. Unfortunately, this wasn't enough to abate his seemingly universal disregard for others advancing the cause.

 

[kwikrnu]

In short, two of our members armed themselves in a way that you would think Kwik would approve of. Unfortunately, this wasn't enough to abate his seemingly universal disregard for others advancing the cause.

Maybe I misunderstood, let me restate. The cop told legal open carriers to leave because they were legally open carrying. The open carriers left after identifying themselves to the cops. They walk a short distance and bad mouth the cops who told them to leave. The reason given by the open carriers was they did this so they can go back at some point in the future.

The question is why? Are they going to keep going back and sent packing or do they plan on standing up for themselves?

 

[ODA 226]

Maybe I misunderstood, let me restate. The cop told legal open carriers to leave because they were legally open carrying. The open carriers left after identifying themselves to the cops. They walk a short distance and bad mouth the cops who told them to leave. The reason given by the open carriers was they did this so they can go back at some point in the future.

The question is why? Are they going to keep going back and sent packing or do they plan on standing up for themselves?

Why don't you go to Birmingham and OC your ORANGE KRINK on a sling while wearing camo and a skull cap and carry a .44 Army BP Revolver in your hand and show these "cowards" how a "real OC advocate" does it. Be the hero of the OC movement!

Now STFU and stay out of the Alabamians business asshat!

 

[Deacon Blues]

The question is why? Are they going to keep going back and sent packing or do they plan on standing up for themselves?

I wasn't one of the ones dispersed, but I can imagine what it was like.

The reason the cops showed up in the first place was a fight between some other gentlemen at Starbucks. One of the responding officers was alarmed by the sight of open-carriers sitting outside, and the rest is video. The ALOC members' actions have to be understood in context:

• The police didn't show up because of a MWAG call, they were there on different business. This was an unforeseen situation.
• A crime was committed on the premises, and the legal ramifications of this were unknown to the OCers.
• Some of those present stood to face much more serious consequences than the rest.
• No research was done or preparations made for this particular set of circumstances, thus no one knew at what point righteous noncompliance ended and violation of the law began.
• In an uncertain situation, the danger of damaging our cause as well as our relationship with BPD (already in crisis) was a major incentive.

This is just the tip of the iceberg as far as all the things running through people's minds. It's quite easy for us to be armchair quarterbacks, but it was a tense situation that wasn't in anybody's playbook.

 

[simmonsjoe]

Kwiknru

I have repeatedly stated my opinion that many of the things kwiknru does are over the top. I wouldn't do them. I disagree with him on various topics. Still, his willingness to be involved with the legal system, lawyers, and courts, and risking his life that some stupid rookie cop doesn't just cap him, is commendable.

 

[eye95]

I wasn't one of the ones dispersed, but I can imagine what it was like.

The reason the cops showed up in the first place was a fight between some other gentlemen at Starbucks. One of the responding officers was alarmed by the sight of open-carriers sitting outside, and the rest is video. The ALOC members' actions have to be understood in context:

• The police didn't show up because of a MWAG call, they were there on different business. This was an unforeseen situation.
• A crime was committed on the premises, and the legal ramifications of this were unknown to the OCers.
• Some of those present stood to face much more serious consequences than the rest.
• No research was done or preparations made for this particular set of circumstances, thus no one knew at what point righteous noncompliance ended and violation of the law began.
• In an uncertain situation, the danger of damaging our cause as well as our relationship with BPD (already in crisis) was a major incentive.

This is just the tip of the iceberg as far as all the things running through people's minds. It's quite easy for us to be armchair quarterbacks, but it was a tense situation that wasn't in anybody's playbook.

What a clear and concise explanation of this situation. Props to you for trying one more time to give rationality a chance.

Personally, I am restraining my self from replying in a manner extremely similar to that of the reply just above yours.

 

[ODA 226]

I have repeatedly stated my opinion that many of the things kwiknru does are over the top. I wouldn't do them. I disagree with him on various topics. Still, his willingness to be involved with the legal system, lawyers, and courts, and risking his life that some stupid rookie cop doesn't just cap him, is commendable.

Joe,
While we agree on the vast majority of issues, this is one where we are in total opposition. This guy wants to cause a situation that will result in violence in order to get a big payday. He makes us all look bad and will only cause other OCers to be scrutinized more by the police.

His supporters badmouth me via PM and then refuse to respond to my reply. Maybe his supporters ARE him?????

He is a danger to others as he is certainly a danger to himself and the general public. Mark my words, this idiot will provoke an incident where blood will be shed. Mark my words.