Be Careful What You Say, When Stopped By MD State Police!

[Citizen]

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swinokur wrote:

Citizen wrote:

swinokur wrote:

Citizen wrote:

swinokur wrote:

SNIP If you start and end your trip in MD then you are covered under the MD statute 4-203.

SNIP I'm not sure about the "start and end your trip in MD" part. Wouldn't it just have to be stopping in MD, regardless of where one started?

MD AG opinion. attached

SNIP The relevant paragraph seems to be the nextto last.

In short, 18 USC 926A protects passing through Maryland. And, the AG says this fed statute does not protect trips that start and end in Maryland.

What the AG does not say is that a trip that starts outside MD and ends inside MD is also not protected by 18 USC 926A.The statute only protects crossing through MD.Starting outside MD and ending in MD is just another way to not cross through Maryland. Why the AG left that unsaid, I do not know. Maybe he was just focusing on a question that asked about starting and stopping within MD.

But he did require that BOTH the origin and destination be in MD for the MD statute to apply. If you started in PA and ended in MD you would still have FOPA protection according to the AG. Is this not what he said?

Not quite. The AG wrote:

The federal law you cite (18 USC 926A) applies to the interstate transportation of a firearm (handgun or long arm) and supersedes Maryland law. It would have no bearing on the transportation of a firearm where the origin and destination are both within Maryland. It would however allow for the transportation of a firearm through the State of Maryland regardless of the Maryland law cited above.

The AG is saying the fed statute does not apply if the origin and destination are both in MD. This does not automatically mean the MD statute only applies when the start and stop are both in MD. It is entirely possible the MD statute also applies to an out-of-state origin that ends in MD.

In fact 18 USC 926A only protects if the possession and carry are legal at both ends of the trip. Thus, if the possession or carry is legal at the start, for example, in Virginia, but is somehow illegal at the destination in MD, then 18 USC 926A would not protect: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sec_18_00000926---A000-.html

 

[swinokur]

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Well now I'm really confused. I tend to read things in a black and white way. i know sometimes laws are not written that way, ie VA OC. But it seems clear to me in what the AG stated.was if you don't originate and end in MD, then FOPA is used as your protective umbrella. Since MD does allow the leagl possesion of a handgun, the part you quote from FOPA about being legal at origin and destination is not germane. maybe I'm just dense.

Thanks Citizen

 

[Dreamer]

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swinokur,

Your confusion (and the confusion in ANY rational person when they start studying MD firearms law) is, I believe the EXACT intent of the current policies in MD. The laws are vague in some cases, their application in the field is WILDLY variable (primarily depending on the race and socio-political status of the "accused") and even case law is often contradictory to statute law and previous common law.

One thing is perfectly clear though. Currently, in MD, it is the official policy and opinion of the MSP, the AG, and most of the state courts, that the 2A does not apply im MD. I have actually heard a high-ranking MD State Police representative state this in a hearing before the Judiciary Committee of the MD General Assembly.

So ultimately, in MD, the actual WORDING of the law doesn't really matter...

What DOES matter is the "interpretation" of the law made by the officer in the field, and then the interpretation of law by the presiding judge and attendant jury in a trial.

Now you need to remember that it is the OFFICIAL POLICY (backed up with MD case law) of the MD Court system, the MD AG, and the MDSP that the individual RKBA as enumerated in the 2A of the US Constitution DOES NOT APPLY in MD. Under MD policy, there are two kinds of people with guns--those who wear badges and criminals.

If you are not wearing a badge, you are assumed from the get-go to be a criminal, and then it's your obligation to convince the courts (because you're NOT going to convince the LEO) otherwise.

Personally I was under the impression that MD was like the rest of the US and did not have a legal system based on Napoleonic Law, but at least with regards to firearms, you are guilty until proven non guilty....

Even in the purchase of firearm, when you get your application for purchase back from the MSP, it does not say "APPROVED". The official designation for an OK application to purchase is "NOT DENIED". In MD, even when you are "allowed" to own a gun, it is not acknowledged that you have the right to do so, only that you were not denied the privilege to do so...

Firearms ownerhsip is a PRIVILEGE in MD. The "Master and Serf" spirit of Cecilius Calvert, Second Lord Baltimore live on today, over 350 years after the founding of MD, and over 230 years after The US claimed independence from the British Crown...

 

[pullnshoot25]

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Texas Jack wrote:

I am a travelerto Baltimore, MD. Meaning, I have a place in PA and commute to Baltimore on a daily routine. However, my home is East Texas.

I was stopped for out of state tags (Texas) and in the conversation, asked "Do you have any weapons in your car?" well we all know that that split second hesitation is a sure fire conviction in its own right. When I respond "Yes" I have a hand-gun in the glove box, you would have thought I showed him a rattle-snake. I was asked to step out of the vehicle and place my hands on the hood, Slowly! within a few minutes, there were two (2) additional units and thankfully a older, experience sergant.

I found it a little amusing when asked, "Your not from here?" well is it my Texas plates, my boots, or the hat? that gave me away. Now, the search was completed and my 357 revolver was removed from the case and I was asked was it loaded? and I responded why would I carry an unloaded gun, too which I received no points, and when the younger officer noticed that the hammer was on a dead cylinder, I was asked,"why is there no bullet?" my response was did your father not teach you to never carry a loaded pistol with the hammer setting on a live cylinder? No response!

The Long/Short was I was given the pistol back and it was placed back in the glove box next to the box of ammo, less 5 rounds they kept. So I guess I did ok, they took 5 and I kept 45. So, now when I cross the MD line I have to decide if I am going to empty my gun and lock it up and place the ammo somewhere that is not "Readily Available" or just take my chances.

TJ

That is called robbery. File a report.

ETA: Looks like that would be a bad idea since it looks as if you were carrying illegally...

 

[swinokur]

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Dreamer wrote

Even in the purchase of firearm, when you get your application for purchase back from the MSP, it does not say "APPROVED". The official designation for an OK application to purchase is "NOT DENIED". In MD, even when you are "allowed" to own a gun, it is not acknowledged that you have the right to do so, only that you were not denied the privilege to do so...

Actually that's not completely correct. The paperwork you get back from MSP after the mandatory 7 day wait on a handgun purchase says "Not Disapproved".

Paperwork from MSP does not nor ever said "Not Denied" to the best of my knowledge.

I've purchase several handguns in Maryland, the most recent in December last year, so I've seen the MSP paperwork

 

[Grapeshot]

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Where is Texas Jack (the OP) these last nine days?

Hot and run posting?

Yata hey

 

[swinokur]

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Good question Grape.


Drive by posting ?

:cuss:

 

[Dreamer]

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swinokur wrote:

Actually that's not completely correct. The paperwork you get back from MSP after the mandatory 7 day wait on a handgun purchase says "Not Disapproved".

Paperwork from MSP does not nor ever said "Not Denied" to the best of my knowledge.

I've purchase several handguns in Maryland, the most recent in December last year, so I've seen the MSP paperwork

YEs, that's correct. I got the word wrong, but not the attitude of MSP...

The point is, that NOBODY is "approved" to purchase or own firearms. You are just "not disapproved". This may seem like a petty semantic difference to the legally uninitiated, but it is actually a HUGE difference when it comes to the REAL meaning of words. It's like the difference between "innocent" and "not guilty". Not guilty doesn't mean that the accused didn't do anything, it just means the jury didn't see fit to convict.

"Not Disapproved" doesn't mean that the state of MD approved of you purchasing a firearm. It just means they can't find any reasons to immediately disapprove of the purchase...

MD is a serfdom. There is no RKBA in MD. They see it as a privilege...

 

[KBCraig]

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Here's where my BS detector started twitching:

I was stopped for out of state tags

 

[swinokur]

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Dreamer wrote:

swinokur wrote:

Actually that's not completely correct. The paperwork you get back from MSP after the mandatory 7 day wait on a handgun purchase says "Not Disapproved".

Paperwork from MSP does not nor ever said "Not Denied" to the best of my knowledge.

I've purchase several handguns in Maryland, the most recent in December last year, so I've seen the MSP paperwork

YEs, that's correct. I got the word wrong, but not the attitude of MSP...

The point is, that NOBODY is "approved" to purchase or own firearms. You are just "not disapproved". This may seem like a petty semantic difference to the legally uninitiated, but it is actually a HUGE difference when it comes to the REAL meaning of words. It's like the difference between "innocent" and "not guilty". Not guilty doesn't mean that the accused didn't do anything, it just means the jury didn't see fit to convict.

"Not Disapproved" doesn't mean that the state of MD approved of you purchasing a firearm. It just means they can't find any reasons to immediately disapprove of the purchase...

MD is a serfdom. There is no RKBA in MD. They see it as a privilege...

Dreamer-I totally agree with you. The first time I purchased a handgun in MD and saw the paperwork at the gun store stamped "not disapproved "my first thought was "those arrogant f***s. Who do they think they are? You are right there are two kinds of people as far as the MSP are concerned. Cops and everyone else. Everyone else is just a criminal in waiting in their minds. No matter I served my country in thre military and have been a law abiding citizen since then. Nope.

Maybe McDonald vs Chicago will be a turning point in Maryland. I pray it is.

 

[KBCraig]

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Maryland State Police are notorious for busting other cops for carrying, even when they're doing so legally. I don't buy the idea that they let Joe Texan continue on his way with both his handgun and a box of ammo.

 

[Mr.arker]

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What was he stopped for in the first place?
Driving in Maryland with Texas plates?
I heard nothing mentioned about traffic or equipment violations.

KB Craig, I agree with you about the BS sensor!

 

[Mr H]

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<<The first time I purchased a handgun in MD and saw the paperwork at the gun store stamped "not disapproved "my first thought was "those arrogant f***s>>

Funny... I had the same thought, almost verbatim!!

I, too, am hoping SCOTUS remembers it's their job to preserve the rights we were guaranteed, and the People's job to insist on it.

 

[64Postcar]

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Well, I'll be making the first of three runs from CO to MD beginning on 3/17. I'll have CO plates on the truck and trailer, so if they're focusing on that aspect, you guys will hear about it. I probably should expect to be pulled over and searched at least once, so I guess I'll leave the gun home.

Any wagers on exactly how many times I get stopped in MD?

 

[Mr H]

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What's the Over-Under??

OK... .I'll take the "Under".........

 

[Dreamer]

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You know, I just spent the weekend (Fri-Sun) in Columbia MD, so I was driving through Howard, PG, and Montgomery counties, (with my novelty NC plate that says "OPEN CARRY" on the front) and didn't have a single problem...

Of course, in two weeks when I go back up for my traffic court appearances, I'll be wearing a MD novelty tag that says "CRMNL GVMT". If I EVER get pulled over, it will be when I'm sporting THAT plate...

I'v got my voice recorder right here in my pocket, and I'm considering getting a "Dash Cam" to mount in my vehicle, just for MD trips. The only difficulty with that is that MD is a "2-part consent" state with regards to recording conversations, so I'd have to let the presiding officer know that he was being recorded--even though HE doesn't have to ask MY permission to be recorded on HIS dash cam or radio recorder.

2 Laws for 2 classes.

MD government is an openly criminal enterprise.

Someone needs to bring Gov. O'Malley and Col. Sheridan up on RICO charges...

 

[64Postcar]

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So, if you disclose to the LEO you're recording the conversation, what's to prevent him from just seizing your recording device? I mean since the Constitution really doesn't apply to MD...

 

[Citizen]

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Dreamer wrote:

SNIP The only difficulty with that is that MD is a "2-part consent" state with regards to recording conversations, so I'd have to let the presiding officer know that he was being recorded--even though HE doesn't have to ask MY permission to be recorded on HIS dash cam or radio recorder.

You might check and see if there are any court cases in the federal 4th Circuit where recording an on-dutycopis protected.

In one of the federal district courts of PA a couple years ago, a couple PA state troopers had to pay a hefty penalty to a fella whose cam-corder they seized for recording them. So, at least one federal court thinks it is protected.