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A questions as to your interpretation of the 2nd Amendment

Beretta92FSLady

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I poke at your emotive side because its the flaming, hemorrhaging, bulging basis for all of your replies and retorts. Keep it up!

How phallic of you.

It's interesting how you accuse me of being emotive, then use rather phallic terminology to "poke" at me with. I have often wondered if your accusations of me being emotive in my line of reasoning has more to do with the male versus female dynamic as an underlying presence in all our discourse. I enjoy your Freudian slips. Next, I am sure you will respond that I am incapable of 'penetrating' concepts being discussed.
 
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We-the-People

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@ SlowFiveOh

AND Berreta92FSLady (added)

I'm not a moderator but let's keep this civil and not personal. I (and I'm sure others) would like a DISCUSSION to continue and not be locked up.

Personal attacks are not allowed and while none of us are perfect, and sometimes things we say can be taken in a way we didn't intend, there is no doubt on the matter in the prior posts.

Thanks.
 
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Beretta92FSLady

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By the way. Did religious people invent "Personal responsibility", or not?

You know the answer to this question, it is at the bottom of each of your posts. Personal Responsibility is merely a construct, a manufactured concept that's purpose is to negate collective duty to each individual within the collective. Personal Responsibility at the expense of collective duty is destructive to individuals, as well as the collective.

In response to the above request for civility, I must have missed where I posted a personal attack against Slow.
 
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wrightme

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I realize that the moon is near full, and I have neglected to place my garlic neckless soaked in kerosene around my neck - but yet.... I venture out...........

"SHALL NOT" in the English lexicon is a rendering sort of likened to that proverbial "line in the sand" (Thank you William Barret Travis !)

For those brought up during, or after the "sixties" SHALL NOT means essentially that the subject behavior that you "SHALL NOT " engage in is ... well, a.... NO-NO ! (Spank, spank !!!)

Get it ?

Um, yeah, that is my position. It isn't HER position.
 

wrightme

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I have read. Both of them. I asked you what YOU found to give you the impression you hold, not what I found to discredit your opinion. :rolleyes:

[h=1]McDonald v. Chicago[/h]http://www.oyez.org/cases/2000-2009/2009/2009_08_1521

Read, read, read. I should point out that a ban on firearms was struck down. The red tape that the state can be such that it makes it very difficult for the individual to acquire a firearm, but not impossible. Basically, there can not be an outright ban, but the state, and city (if state law allows) can make it one hell of a pain in the ass, but not impossible to acquire.

No, that is clearly an "infringement." What do YOU find in the stated opinions that makes you believe such to be the case? In other words, articulate your position, as opposed to simply declaring it.
 

wrightme

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Holy hell-fire. I agree, the right to bear arms shall not be infringed, meaning, an outright ban is unConstitutional. I think we half agree on some thing, mainly, the text of the Constitution, and that an all-out ban is unConstitututional.

Of course an all-out ban is unconstitutional. That does NOT mean anything that isn't an all-out ban is constitutional.
 

rushcreek2

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The SCOTUS held in Murdock v the Commonwealth of PA that regulation of a civil right by way of requiring a license is NOT "unconstitutional" AS LONG AS THE CRITERIA ESTABLISHED IS NOT SUPPRESSIVE OF THE RIGHT IN QUESTION, and any fees attached to the issuance of the license amount to no more than what is necessary to offset the costs of administering the licensing program.

The case deals with the licensing of Jehovah's Witnesses door-to-door activites - not the right to bear arms, but it is still SCOTUS precedent on licensing activity associated with the exercise of a civil right. This is a problem for Chicago, and D.C. ultimately .
 

user

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The SCOTUS held in Murdock v the Commonwealth of PA that regulation of a civil right by way of requiring a license is NOT "unconstitutional" AS LONG AS THE CRITERIA ESTABLISHED IS NOT SUPPRESSIVE OF THE RIGHT IN QUESTION, and any fees attached to the issuance of the license amount to no more than what is necessary to offset the costs of administering the licensing program.

The case deals with the licensing of Jehovah's Witnesses door-to-door activites - not the right to bear arms, but it is still SCOTUS precedent on licensing activity associated with the exercise of a civil right. This is a problem for Chicago, and D.C. ultimately .

And therein lies the big trick. As a matter of strict construction, the Bill of Rights is absolute as against the United States: "shall not be infringed" means, "shall not be infringed" (, dammit). The Second Amendment says you can have tactical nuclear weapons if you want to, and the United States can't tell you yes, no, or maybe.

However, the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania has its own constitution, and can do anything its constitution says it can. It can prohibit weapons down to the level of slingshot and fingernail clippers if it wants to. It can require Jehovah's Witnesses to be licensed to practice their religious precepts. It can regulate what you can say in Pennsylvania and what you can't. Again, subject to its own constitution.

The trick is in muddying up the distinction in order to deprive you of your rights under the first ten amendments to the U.S. Constitution. By applying the Bill of Rights to the states, and then acknowledging the states' power to engage in "reasonable regulation" under the guise of the Fourteenth Amendment "due process" clause, and then pretending that exactly the same rules apply to the United States, they redefine and treat the citizens' rights as privileges.

If the United States were going to implement the "due process" clause, which it really never has, it would ensure that citizens receive no interference with those rights guaranteed under their state constitutions. That's a matter of process. But the Sup. Ct. has specifically ruled that it will not do so.

This stuff about substantive due process is, well, "stuff". Like my grandmother used to say, "Danny, you're just full of STUFF!!!" But when the people have "stuff" in their eyes, they can't see that they're being robbed.
 

rushcreek2

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Second Amendment interpretation, and application by the SCOTUS should NOT be relied upon to preserve the respect for the right to keep & bear arms within the jurisdictions of the United States of America.

The Texas Constitution is perhaps my favorite, since it is rooted in the sovereign body politic of the Republic of Texas RELATIVELY recently established through the blood of a liberty loving people- ONE of which, William Linn, was one of my ancestors.

Article 1, Section 23 of that SUPREME LAW of Texas - DECLARES that EVERY CITIZEN in Texas shall have the RIGHT to keep, AND BEAR arms in the lawful defense of themselves, or the State.

Now does the SCOTUS interpretation, and application of the federal constitution in the context of DECIDING CASES ARISING UNDER THE FEDERAL CONSTITUTION from 1791-2011 override Article 1, Section 23 of the Texas Constitution ? I think not. The 2A merely provides that the federal government established in 1791 may NOT INFRINGE UPON, OR OTHERWISE SUPPRESS the right to keep & bear arms RESERVED TO THE PEOPLE OF the several states.

Texas has for 135 years suffered under the oppression of the high powers of that state transgressing upon a right reserved, and declared by the Texas Constitution of 1876 to be inviolate. Article 1, Section 29 of the Texas Constitution clearly declares that such legislative acts of transgression by the high powers of that State government are void.

How does this relate to the "meaning" of the 2A ? The whole issue is "off-limits" to the Federal government - period ! It is a STATE MATTER. THAT IS PRECISELY WHAT THE 2A "MEANS". In other words......The CITIZENS OF TEXAS are "fixin'" to FIX IT !

The federal government needs to confine itself to "regulation of interstate commerce".
 
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We-the-People

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The federal government needs to confine itself to "regulation of interstate commerce".

Oh but they are don't cha know. Everything affects interstate commerce. Why, according to the current administration (and they ain't the first), whether you chose to buy something or not is a decision of commerce and so even if you chose not to buy it, you've participated in commerce.

The SCOTUS are mostly at fault for allowing the feds to regulate a man growing grain on his own land, for his own cattle. SCOTUS said that his growing grain removed his need to participate in the market for grain and that all the individual farmers who did that would add up to a major impact in the interstate commerce of grain.

And that, boys and girls, is teh problem. The fox is guarding the hen house so to say.
 

Beretta92FSLady

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The SCOTUS are mostly at fault for allowing the feds to regulate a man growing grain on his own land, for his own cattle. SCOTUS said that his growing grain removed his need to participate in the market for grain and that all the individual farmers who did that would add up to a major impact in the interstate commerce of grain.

.

Link us up, please.
 

Grapeshot

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The SCOTUS are mostly at fault for allowing the feds to regulate a man growing grain on his own land, for his own cattle. SCOTUS said that his growing grain removed his need to participate in the market for grain and that all the individual farmers who did that would add up to a major impact in the interstate commerce of grain.

And that, boys and girls, is thh problem. The fox is guarding the hen house so to say.

Link us up, please.

Thought every one was aware of this one - makes interstate commerce a two edged sword.
http://supreme.justia.com/us/262/1/
 

Beretta92FSLady

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Thought every one was aware of this one - makes interstate commerce a two edged sword.
http://supreme.justia.com/us/262/1/

Am I reading the same thing that We-the-people is referring to? I reade the link you provided, and it speaks no thing to an individual growing grain for the purposes of feeding their cattle. Another question that I have is, what is the farmer doing with the cattle? Yes, this latter question is relevant to the issue. Or am I wrong?

Example: A farmer in Washington grows the grain to feed his cattle, then sells his cattle to a person in Oregon. Can the grain used to feed the cattle that are set to inevitably be sold to another state be taxed by the Federal Government?

I might be missing something here.
 

user

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Oh but they are don't cha know. Everything affects interstate commerce. Why, according to the current administration (and they ain't the first), whether you chose to buy something or not is a decision of commerce and so even if you chose not to buy it, you've participated in commerce.

The SCOTUS are mostly at fault for allowing the feds to regulate a man growing grain on his own land, for his own cattle. SCOTUS said that his growing grain removed his need to participate in the market for grain and that all the individual farmers who did that would add up to a major impact in the interstate commerce of grain.

And that, boys and girls, is teh problem. The fox is guarding the hen house so to say.

Right you are, WtP: the case was Wickard v. Filburn, 317 U.S. 111 (1942), in which the Court held that Filburn's failure to affect interstate commerce affected interstate commerce.

But wait! There's MORE: Check out Gonzales v. Raich, 545 U.S. 1, 2-3 (2005):
Congress' power to regulate purely local activities that are part of an economic “class of activities” that have a substantial effect on interstate commerce is firmly established. See, e.g., Perez v. United States, 402 U.S. 146, 151. If Congress decides that the “‘total incidence’” of a practice poses a threat to a national market, it may regulate the entire class. See, e.g., id., at 154-155. Of particular relevance here is Wickard v. Filburn, 317 U.S. 111, 127-128, where, in rejecting the appellee farmer's contention that Congress' admitted power to regulate the production of wheat for commerce did not authorize federal regulation of wheat production intended wholly for the appellee's own consumption, the Court established that Congress can regulate purely intrastate activity that is not itself “commercial,” i.e., not produced for sale, if it concludes that failure to regulate that class of activity would undercut the regulation of the interstate market in that commodity. The similarities between this case and Wickard are striking. In both cases, the regulation is squarely within Congress' commerce power because production of the commodity meant for home consumption, be it wheat or marijuana, has a substantial effect on supply and demand in the national market for that commodity. In assessing the scope of Congress' Commerce Clause authority, the Court need not determine whether respondents' activities, taken in the aggregate, substantially affect interstate commerce in fact, but only whether a “rational basis” exists for so concluding. E.g., Lopez, 514 U.S., at 557. Given the enforcement [Page 3] difficulties that attend distinguishing between marijuana cultivated locally and marijuana grown elsewhere, 21 U.S.C. § 801(5), and concerns about diversion into illicit channels, the Court has no difficulty concluding that Congress had a rational basis for believing that failure to regulate the intrastate manufacture and possession of marijuana would leave a gaping hole in the CSA. Pp. 15-22. ...
 

Rick OShea

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What do you believe the 2nd amendment to mean?

The 2nd Amendment to me is a redundancy; the 2nd does nothing but forbid the federal government the exercise of illegitimate powers it was never granted. The primary bind on the federal government's power to impact the personal arms of the private citizen is that no power was ever granted to the federal government to even contemplate the personal arms of the private citizen.

That's why I prefer not to engage in any degree of textual analysis of the Amendment as the right is not created, given, granted or otherwise established by the words chosen to merely recognize and secure the citizen's pre-existing right. The biggest flaw in Scalia's opinion in Heller was his engaging in such a fruitless analysis. He should have simply rebuffed the dissents' textual arguments by re-affirming the Court's longstanding (135 years and counting) sentiment that the right of the people to keep and bear arms is not granted by the 2nd Amendment and is not in any manner dependent on the Constitution for its existence.

That's not to say that the Amendment and the framer's "intent" in securing the right does hasn't had something legitimate to say about the protection sphere of the right. Problem is, what it tells us isn't plainly evident by the text. The framer's primary intent, the "object" of the Amendment was to preserve the treasured principle of a general militia and to ensure that the armed citizenry would always be a viable entity to aid the civil authorities in times of need . . . That the farmers and carpenters, the butchers, bakers and candlestick makers could, at a moment's notice when called to muster, present themselves with an appropriate weapon and ammunition, (supplied by themselves and of the type in common use at the time), with the necessary accessories and sufficient provisions to be effective warriors in the field for a few days.

By and large the citizenry have always been (and remain) properly situated and capable and willing to fulfill that role but the framework to bring that object of the Amendment into action has always been neglected, and since 1903, completely extinguished. The armed citizenry FORMED INTO MILITIAS WHEN NECESSARY is a core principle of the classical republic the founders established; the principle needs no action of Congress to exist, only to function and that is a failure of government not the citizen . . . Now, there is no militia duty impressed upon the citizen; since 1903 no entity (federal / state / private) is constitutionally / legally authorized to call upon the citizens, to train them and deploy them as militia as set out in the conferred powers of Art I, § 8, cls. 15 & 16.

While the inherent right to arms of the citizen does not depend on one's militia attachment status, that primary object of the Amendment, again to perpetuate the general militia concept, does establish certain benchmarks for what is a protected arm UNDER THE 2ND AMENDMENT. As we are familiar with, the arm must be of the type that is/are; a) usually employed in civilized warfare, b) that constitute the ordinary military equipment, c) able to contribute to the common defense, d) in common use at the time.

That criteria always has an important (and legitimate IMNSHO) limitation on it; the government can make arguments as to certain weapon types being "dangerous and unusual" and thus legitimizing restrictions on access to the general population. Heller certainly recognizes this and while I have quite a few complaints about Scalia's opinion he does an effective balancing act on this point. He re-affirmed the fundamental nature of the right when the entire framework of the right's protection sphere (up to Heller) has been filtered / focused on the militia duty aspect (incorrectly of course). I think Scalia did a good job of finally divesting the militia aspect from the right while retaining protection criteria for effective militia weaponry. Without a significant political shift on the Court the only direction to go from here is further reining in of government interference with the right to arms. The protection sphere will shift from being focused on militia usefulness and be directed more on what the legitimate powers of government are regarding the personal arms of the private citizen. The outlook for government, as long as the 2nd is held to fundamental status on par with the 1st Amendment, isn't too encouraging for anti-gunners.

To me, the 2nd Amendment has always been the "canary in the coal mine" for judging anyone's constitutional principles. Their statements on it often expose the hollowness of their claims of allegiance to the principles of conferred powers, retained rights and the often mindlessly parroted "consent of the governed" tenet. Of course people who claim to believe in the "consent of the governed" recoil in horror when you say that they must believe in the insurrectionist interpretation of the 2nd . . . And they look perplexed when you ask, surely having the right to consent to be governed means you also have the right to rescind that consent? LOL

If I were asked to offer my rework of the 2nd Amendment in modern language so even the most idiotic leftist can understand it, it would say:



The existence and viability of a properly functioning citizen militia (the body of citizens that are capable of bearing arms and capable of acting in concert) is necessary to the security of this Nation established on the principle of securing individual liberty from both foreign and domestic threats.

To ensure that the citizenry of the United States of America shall be properly situated to perform their duty if called or defend their liberties when threatened, the inherent, individual right of the people to keep and bear arms of the types usually employed in civilized warfare and that constitute the ordinary military equipment, or any small arm with military usefulness, is hereby secured, to be forever excepted out of the powers delegated to government by the people.

All Federal, State and lower political subdivisions of government are prohibited to disarm any individual without just cause and/or due process for actual crimes committed.​
 

We-the-People

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That's the one I was talking about USER.

Thank you, I've been a bit busy with a crappy biology 101 test that seems to think introductory biology students are supposed to grasp complex chemical equations and the reactions taking place within the cells and be ble to spit out answers as to how many freakin molecules of ATP or NDAHP, or Pyruvate, or whatever are produced in any given reaction. And be able to answer 100 such squestions in 120 minutes. ARRRRRGHHHHH
 

DevinWKuska

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Almost sounds like the US is about over due for another revolution. Just MHO though.


.................--Moderator Statement--Rule Violation--

(15) WE ADVOCATE FOR THE 'LAW-ABIDING' ONLY: Posts advocating illegal acts of any kind are NOT welcome here. Even if you feel that a law is unconstitutional we do not break it, we repeal it or defeat it in the courts.
 

user

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Almost sounds like the US is about over due for another revolution. Just MHO though.


.................--Moderator Statement--Rule Violation--

Interesting - the discussion of the implications of the word, "infringe", involved suggestions about actions that are, in fact, illegal, though I didn't notice it. If I can paraphrase without reference to illegal activities, let me make it clear that my opinion is that the use of that word in the Second Amendment (as well as the original text in the Virginia Constitution from which it comes) points up a dramatic conflict between present-day statutes and regulations and the charters of our governments. There is no question in my mind that the governments have acted well beyond their authority. The constitutional language stands in stark contrast with our present reality.

Abraham Lincoln is purported to have quoted Jefferson to the effect that a free society, in order to remain free, would require a revolution every twenty years or so. I've also pointed out that the United States can do what it wants because, as George Bush I pointed out, the Constitution is just a dam'piece of paper; they've got the big guns and we know perfectly well that the Bureau of State Security is willing to use 'em. Or worse, they could freeze your bank account and cancel all your credit cards, your vehicle registration, your driver's license, your passport, and then charge you with some crime or another (they have the ability to figure out what to charge you with after the fact, that's why they've been keeping everyone's phone calls in a big searchable database for the last ten years).

Well, I've been watching the Iowa caucus-race with some interest, and I have to say, both Bachman and Paul have said the kinds of things I want to hear. I think the "revolution" began in the most recent elections for House of Representatives, and my feeling is that we need to press the advantage, mobilize, and elect people who will shut the abuse of power down.
 

Grapeshot

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I think the "revolution" began in the most recent elections for House of Representatives, and my feeling is that we need to press the advantage, mobilize, and elect people who will shut the abuse of power down.

Therein rests the real power of the people - a grassroots prairie fire - taking back our government by storm - the force and power of the vote.
 

DevinWKuska

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Almost sounds like the US is about over due for another revolution. Just MHO though.


.................--Moderator Statement--Rule Violation--

My appologies. However I was wondering as to if the rest of my post was also in violation? My entire post up until the statement that violated the rules seems to have come up missing. Please enlighten me as to why? In my limited train of thought it would seem the only statement left of my post would have been the one to be deleted yes?
 
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