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9th rules concealed carry is not a 2nd amenment right - broad application

SFCRetired

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But these opinions such as Reid don't do any kind of analysis to see whether that really was the case (that CC is overwhelmingly for a nefarious purpose). For example, the "on a journey" exceptions to CC, does that mean you're all of a sudden less likely to assassinate someone? Why have that exception?

And I'm not sure how CC "invites" criminal activity. That means everyone not open carrying is inviting criminal activity, which is another very broad brush.

And some folks like myself prefer to CC because I don't feel like getting into any public discussions with strangers over the issue, being kicked out of stores because of some weenie manager, or dealing with cops who don't know the law or think I'm some kind of threat. It's just my personal choice, as it may be yours to do the opposite which is fine by me.

I'll take a swing at what I bolded in your comment: It invites criminal activity because the criminal sees the concealed carrier as an unarmed, "soft" target. The same holds true, unfortunately, for the open carrier who has poor situational awareness. I have watched a couple of people (different occasions) who were both open carrying and burying their noses in their cell phones. Very bad practice.

From what I have read of the circumstances surrounding State vs Reid and the mindset of most citizens of that era, concealing a weapon was normally the action of someone who was up to no good. The riverboat gamblers come immediately to mind. The honest citizen of that time who carried a sidearm, carried it openly.
 

press1280

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Frankly, I'm interested in knowing what your problem is, CRTC. The Second Amendment was written in a straightforward manner. It's authors discussed its meaning both in depth and at length, in speeches and period writings, both of which are available to the public via our nation's Library of Congress. When you term "my" text as "incoherent ramblings," you're actually speaking ill of our Founding Fathers. All I'm doing is reflecting their many writings. Naturally, this begs the question as to whether your moniker is an accurate depiction of your purpose on this forum or whether you're a pro-infringement plant.



True.



I did well enough. :)

Sorry to see you assumed otherwise, instead of simply asking.

The history of the state analogues suggests their understanding was for both OC and CC, otherwise these analogues wouldn't later include the phrases about banning/regulating concealed carry.
 

utbagpiper

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I'll take a swing at what I bolded in your comment: It invites criminal activity because the criminal sees the concealed carrier as an unarmed, "soft" target.

This is true only so long as carrying a concealed gun is very rare. As John Lott points out, however, when concealed carry laws allow carrying to be relatively common, violent criminals have to assume that any adult might be armed. 1% of adults carrying guns is not very many. But for a criminal to make a living by mugging people, he has to mug a lot of people. If he has a real chance that 1 person in 100 is going to be able to shoot him his chosen activities just got a lot more dangerous. Would you voluntarily engage in something that had a really good chance of someone shooting in the next 6 months?

What happens when the odds move to 1 in 20 (5%) carrying a gun?

I know you didn't use the term "invite. But those who did show a hostility to CC that is hard for me understand.

No, CC does not "invite" criminal activity. For someone to use that terminology is offensive as it plays into the "blame the victim" mentality that we now recognize as so offensive when it comes to sexual assault or any other crime. A woman doesn't "invite" a sexual assault by wearing a short skirt. A homosexual man doesn't "invite" bashing by not hiding his orientation in the closet. A disabled person doesn't "invite" assault by using a wheelchair.

Going unarmed doesn't "invite criminal activity", it simply doesn't deter it like OC does.

The same holds true, unfortunately, for the open carrier who has poor situational awareness. I have watched a couple of people (different occasions) who were both open carrying and burying their noses in their cell phones. Very bad practice.

And one that presents an actual high-value target. I doubt we can legitimately outlaw bad SA while OCing. It is just as illegitimate to presume to ban CC.

From what I have read of the circumstances surrounding State vs Reid and the mindset of most citizens of that era, concealing a weapon was normally the action of someone who was up to no good. The riverboat gamblers come immediately to mind. The honest citizen of that time who carried a sidearm, carried it openly.

Confirmation bias is interesting. We here all recognize the inaccuracy in the usual, anti-gun narrative about the Wild West. We know that the Old West was generally far less violent than any modern city in this nation, that most gun deaths were drunken young men engaged in voluntary duels, and so on.

So what about the notion that those who carried concealed were up to no good? This little article gives an interesting history on Cane Guns.



For the sixty or so years of the Victorian era (1837-1901), every gentleman with clean fingernails went about town with a walking cane. These canes were simple accessories (though they could often be quite ornate in appearance) and didn’t have a specific purpose other than as a fashion accessory, a symbol of taste, wealth and class.

However, the piece of mind that comes with traveling with a nice, sturdy stick in your hands was certainly an aspect of these early canes function/popularity as this period also saw one of the most notorious rises in street crime ever seen in the modern Western world. And with the canes marking these gentlemen as targets for ruffians as much as defending against them, you could see why it soon became fashionable to have not only a cane, but also one that held a means of protection. This led to cane swords, but these were largely outpaced by the rise of small, concealable pistols, used both by citizens as well as by the criminal elements.

...

[T]he most commonly encountered cane gun that ever saw mass production was made by American gun great, Remington Arms. The company’s master mechanic John F. Thomas patented (#19,328) a percussion fired single-shot cane rifle in 1858 and within a year, Remington was selling their guns to an eager public.


I note that the 1822 Bliss case out of Kentucky found in favor of the right to carry concealed weapons. It was used in the defense of Mattews Ward in 1852 who drew a concealed firearm to shoot a man over a trivial disagreement.

The 1846 Nunn decision by the Georgia Supreme Court overturned a ban on carrying concealed firearms saying:

The right of the whole people, old and young, men, women and boys, and not militia only, to keep and bear arms of every description, and not such merely as are used by the militia, shall not be infringed, curtailed, or broken in upon, in the smallest degree; and all this for the important end to be attained: the rearing up and qualifying a well-regulated militia, so vitally necessary to the security of a free State. Our opinion is, that any law, State or Federal, is repugnant to the Constitution, and void, which contravenes this right, originally belonging to our forefathers, trampled under foot by Charles I. and his two wicked sons and successors, re-established by the revolution of 1688, conveyed to this land of liberty by the colonists, and finally incorporated conspicuously in our own Magna Carta!
[emphasis added]

In Heller, the U.S. Supreme Court said Nunn, "Perfectly captured the in which the operative clause of the Second Amendment furthered the purpose announced in the prefatory clause."

It appears to me that several of the early cases that held against concealed carry, also held against the individual right in favor of some sort of collective right.

I have also been long impressed by Clayton Cramer's "Racist Roots of Gun Control" essay detailing the way gun laws have been used to oppress unpopular minorities.

Bottom line, it simply isn't rational that a right to bear arms is nearly absolute....unless a couple of mm of fabric obscure the firearm from view.

Charles
 
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utbagpiper

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We have had at least one former member on this forum that openly talked of carrying concealed to ambush criminals. Then add that the problems that have existed with screw ups have been mostly if not all CC.

Kind of like a very small number of people use guns for criminal activity? By your logic our entire RKBA is subject to infringements based on the bad conduct of a small minority.

And most every cop who had a screw up with a gun was OCing, rather than CCing. Furthermore, just because it is reported that a person "had a permit" doesn't mean he was CCing at the time he screwed up. Most likely, with some 13 million adults in this nation holding concealed carry permits, the number of persons who choose to OC is tiny by comparison such that there are not going to be many opportunities to report on screw ups.

Regardless, whether OC or CC, law-abiding gun owners are very safe. Screw ups are very rare.

The very premise of CC invites criminal activity, then responding to it, instead of preventing it in the first place. And the Reid decision at the time the majority of CC was for nefarious purposes.

Kind of like short skirts "invite" sexual assault and being openly homosexual "invites" bashing? SMH.

Being unarmed is not an "invitation" to criminal activity. Good boys don't go bad because people don't take enough care to make crime too hard. Criminals commit crime. No invitation needed. Prudent men do what they can to discourage commingling a victim. But that doesn't mean that preparations below (or different from) some level set by WW is an "invitation."

I also suspect that your view of the reason for concealed carry in the early days is as flawed as the gun grabbers' narrative about the lawless, violent, wild west.

There are places in this nation where one has to wear a heavy enough coat that it has to be removed when going indoors. Prior to drop let holsters, I doubt the men of New England took to exposing their guns to winter weather only to remove their gun belts to remove their coats, to put the gun belt back on without their coats when entering a building, only to repeat the process in reverse when leaving the building.

As for all of them looking for secret advantages, well the firearm IS concealed, and the claim of almost EVERY CC advocate is the element of surprise.

So sad to see a supposed supporter of RKBA resorting to the rhetorical devices of the gun haters by twisting the meaning of words.

The element of surprise, when invoked by most CCers is to have advantage when defending against criminal aggression. There is no dishonor in seeking advantage over criminals. We're not talking about mutually consensual duels here, but about defending life and limb from violent, criminal or even terroristic aggression.

Whether the advantage of surprise outweighs the advantage of discouraging criminal conduct from ever starting is a fine debate. But it is not really relevant to whether or not the RIGHT to KBA is invalidated when one dons a winter coat. We might just as well discuss whether the RKBA covers curios and relics or whether it only applies to modern, highly reliable firearms.

Charles
 

utbagpiper

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As far back as 1840, at least in Alabama, concealed carry was, at best, frowned upon. This is what I found:

Go back to 1822 and the Kentucky high court ruled in Bliss that the RKBA included the right to carry a concealed sword (sword cane).


The Kentucky High Court stated in Bliss, "But it should not be forgotten, that it is not only a part of the right that is secured by the constitution; it is the right entire and complete, as it existed at the adoption of the constitution; and if any portion of that right be impaired, immaterial how small the part may be, and immaterial the order of time at which it be done, it is equally forbidden by the constitution."[12] The "constitution" mentioned in this quote refers to Kentucky's Constitution.[16]

The popularity of Remington's Sword guns in the 1850s, as well as palm guns, and other easily concealed firearms (many of which would require AOW licenses today for not looking like guns) strongly suggests to me that ladies and gentlemen in the early days of our Republic (as well as in England) recognized the value of being armed, but didn't feel any moral need to look like they were armed in every case.

Charles
 

utbagpiper

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Heller said that concealed carry is a not a right and can therefore be banned.

Heller was crucial in recognizing the RKBA as an individual right.

It fell far short from perfect in accepting far too many restrictions on RKBA as acceptable. Still, as we see with freedom of speech/press, homosexual issues, and other rights, you don't eat an elephant in one bite.

Some of you guys act as if you've never seen real winter. I have a natural/God-given/Constitutionally-enumerated individual right to keep and bear arms, but if a winter coat covers that I am no longer exercising a basic right, but I've turned into some kind of craven criminal looking to cause mayhem in society?!?!?! In what world does that even begin to make sense?

shall not be infringed.

Charles
 

California Right To Carry

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Peruta v. San Diego, analyzed - By David Kopel

Perhaps the many of you who are still suffering from the delusion that there is a Second Amendment right to concealed carry should read the following article by David Kopel -> https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2016/06/11/peruta-v-san-diego-analyzed/

And, of course, it wouldn't hurt to actually read the majority opinion in the en banc Peruta case. https://cdn.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2016/06/09/10-56971.pdf

Throw away your tinfoil hats and stop listening to your toaster. There is no Second Amendment right to carry a weapon concealed. There never has been.

NRA Suckers.jpg

CalGunsDotNutsPinhead.jpg
 

solus

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Perhaps the many of you who are still suffering from the delusion that there is a Second Amendment right to concealed carry should read the following article by David Kopel -> https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2016/06/11/peruta-v-san-diego-analyzed/

And, of course, it wouldn't hurt to actually read the majority opinion in the en banc Peruta case. https://cdn.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2016/06/09/10-56971.pdf

Throw away your tinfoil hats and stop listening to your toaster. There is no Second Amendment right to carry a weapon concealed. There never
snipped images...

now, CA, your soapbox rant 'bout right to conceal carry, i'm sure is well meanin' on some venue, somewhere on Al's invention, other than one dedicated to the citizens of this here country OPEN CARRYING their firearms...

dontcha think?

ipse

ps, prob some place where their intellect is the same level as your rant is written...
 
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B

Bikenut

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Perhaps the many of you who are still suffering from the delusion that there is a Second Amendment right to concealed carry should read the following article by David Kopel -> https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2016/06/11/peruta-v-san-diego-analyzed/

And, of course, it wouldn't hurt to actually read the majority opinion in the en banc Peruta case. https://cdn.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2016/06/09/10-56971.pdf

Throw away your tinfoil hats and stop listening to your toaster. There is no Second Amendment right to carry a weapon concealed. There never has been.

View attachment 13134

View attachment 13135
Please show me where the 2nd Amendment mentions a difference between the methods of "bear Arms" and mentions where one method of bearing (open carry) shall not be infringed while a different method of bearing (concealed carry) is OK to be infringed.

Amendment II

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
 
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hammer6

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Go back to 1822 and the Kentucky high court ruled in Bliss that the RKBA included the right to carry a concealed sword (sword cane).


The Kentucky High Court stated in Bliss, "But it should not be forgotten, that it is not only a part of the right that is secured by the constitution; it is the right entire and complete, as it existed at the adoption of the constitution; and if any portion of that right be impaired, immaterial how small the part may be, and immaterial the order of time at which it be done, it is equally forbidden by the constitution."[12] The "constitution" mentioned in this quote refers to Kentucky's Constitution.[16]

The popularity of Remington's Sword guns in the 1850s, as well as palm guns, and other easily concealed firearms (many of which would require AOW licenses today for not looking like guns) strongly suggests to me that ladies and gentlemen in the early days of our Republic (as well as in England) recognized the value of being armed, but didn't feel any moral need to look like they were armed in every case.

Charles


kentucky is different because their original constitution respected the right to carry concealed AND open in the same sentence. it made no difference of the two. years later, this was changed via constitutional amendment and statute to line up with the rest of the country on concealed carry.
 

hammer6

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Please show me where the 2nd Amendment mentions a difference between the methods of "bear Arms" and mentions where one method of bearing (open carry) shall not be infringed while a different method of bearing (concealed carry) is OK to be infringed.

Amendment II

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

we all agree with that my man-

but to follow that course will bear no fruit since our "leaders" (court justices and legislators) don't agree.

we have to chip away slowly or else our actions are in vain.
 

solus

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we all agree with that my man-

but to follow that course will bear no fruit since our "leaders" (court justices and legislators) don't agree.

we have to chip away slowly or else our actions are in vain.

civics 101 refresher...

The most important duty of the legislative branch is to make laws.

The president approves and carries out laws passed by the legislative branch and acts ...as head of state and commander in chief of the armed forces. (read...leader)

The judicial branch oversees the court system & explains the meaning of the Constitution and laws passed by Congress.

Business Mgmt 101 refresher...

http://www.nwlink.com/~donclark/leader/leadstl.html and http://www.nwlink.com/~donclark/history_management/management.html

ipse
 

WalkingWolf

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Please show me where the 2nd Amendment mentions a difference between the methods of "bear Arms" and mentions where one method of bearing (open carry) shall not be infringed while a different method of bearing (concealed carry) is OK to be infringed.

Amendment II

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

You answered your own question, bear is about the opposite as you can get to hide.
 

utbagpiper

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kentucky is different because their original constitution respected the right to carry concealed AND open in the same sentence. it made no difference of the two. years later, this was changed via constitutional amendment and statute to line up with the rest of the country on concealed carry.

I don't see where the federal constitution makes any distinction. The original Kentucky State Constitution simply read:

"That the right of the citizens to bear arms in defence of themselves and the state, shall not be questioned."

Which looks an virtually identical to the 2nd amendment's language of:

"...the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

In contrast, the amended constitution specifically called out the limitation on concealed carry.

"That the rights of the citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the State shall not be questioned; but the General Assembly may pass laws to prevent persons from carrying concealed arms."


Interestingly, the earliest cases limiting concealed carry while presuming to defend some right to bear arms openly come from Arkansas, Aymette in 1840 and Buzzard in 1842. In both cases, the court limited the RKBA by imposing various militia tests. In Aymette, the limitation appears to be on which arms can be borne while also limiting the right to one exercised "in a body", and not individually. In Buzzard, the Arkansas court ruled that the RKBA was a collective right and thus a ban on concealed carry was permissible with the exception for those "on a journey".

Of course, we reject any ruling that would claim RKBA is a "collective right" or only protective of formal militia service or arms. Similarly, if I have a right to defend myself while "on a journey" I must enjoy equal right while puttering about my usual routine in my neighborhood.

What we have then, is the earliest decision on RKBA determining that language virtually identical to the operative clause of the 2nd amendment protecting both OC and CC, and with an explicit constitutional allowance to ban CC required to overturn that decision. Decisions from other States on RKBA improperly held that RKBA was some kind of collective right or operative only in regard to militia service and also wrongly holding that RKBA was, therefore, limited to OC. In other words, building on the faulty foundation that RKBA is only for militia service, the courts held that there was no protection for personal CC. Yet we all know that foundation is flawed, so results springing from that foundation must also be questioned.

Charles
 

utbagpiper

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You answered your own question, bear is about the opposite as you can get to hide.

Citation please from some source other than a court attempting to limit our natural rights.

From Black's online law dictionary I get simply:

Black's said:
What is BEAR?

To support, sustain, or carry; to give rise to", or to produce, something else as an incident or auxiliary.

Law Dictionary: What is BEAR? definition of BEAR (Black's Law Dictionary)

From Merriam-Webster online:

M-W said:
Full Definition of bear

1
transitive verb

2
1
a : to move while holding up and supporting (something)

b : to be equipped or furnished with (something)

c : behave, conduct <bearing himself well>

d : to have as a feature or characteristic <bears a likeness to her grandmother>

e : to give as testimony <bear false witness>

f : to have as an identification <bore the name of John>

g : to hold in the mind or emotions <bear malice>

h : disseminate

i : lead, escort

j : render, give

3
2
a : to give birth to

b : to produce as yield

c (1) : to permit growth of (2) : contain <oil-bearing shale>

4
3
a : to support the weight of : sustain

b : to accept or allow oneself to be subjected to especially without giving way <couldn't bear the pain> <I can't bear seeing you cry>

c : to call for as suitable or essential <it bears watching>

d : to hold above, on top, or aloft

e : to admit of : allow

f : assume, accept

5
4
: thrust, press

6
intransitive verb

7
1
: to produce fruit : yield

8
2
a : to force one's way

b : to extend in a direction indicated or implied

c : to be situated : lie

d : to become directed

e : to go or incline in an indicated direction

9
3
: to support a weight or strain —often used with up

10
4
a : to exert influence or force

b : apply, pertain —often used with on or upon <facts bearing on the question>



bear arms

1: to carry or possess arms


2 : to serve as a soldier

I see nothing in either definition that creates a distinction between OC and CC.

The only on-line definitions for "bear arms" I could find that claimed anything like such a distinction, also claimed that the right to bear arms was limited to collective action or militia service.

So again, I'd love to see your citation that "bear" requires the arms to be carried in the open, fully exposed to weather.

Charles
 
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hammer6

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I don't see where the federal constitution makes any distinction. The original Kentucky State Constitution simply read:

"That the right of the citizens to bear arms in defence of themselves and the state, shall not be questioned."

Which looks an virtually identical to the 2nd amendment's language of:

"...the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

In contrast, the amended constitution specifically called out the limitation on concealed carry.

"That the rights of the citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the State shall not be questioned; but the General Assembly may pass laws to prevent persons from carrying concealed arms."


Interestingly, the earliest cases limiting concealed carry while presuming to defend some right to bear arms openly come from Arkansas, Aymette in 1840 and Buzzard in 1842. In both cases, the court limited the RKBA by imposing various militia tests. In Aymette, the limitation appears to be on which arms can be borne while also limiting the right to one exercised "in a body", and not individually. In Buzzard, the Arkansas court ruled that the RKBA was a collective right and thus a ban on concealed carry was permissible with the exception for those "on a journey".

Of course, we reject any ruling that would claim RKBA is a "collective right" or only protective of formal militia service or arms. Similarly, if I have a right to defend myself while "on a journey" I must enjoy equal right while puttering about my usual routine in my neighborhood.

What we have then, is the earliest decision on RKBA determining that language virtually identical to the operative clause of the 2nd amendment protecting both OC and CC, and with an explicit constitutional allowance to ban CC required to overturn that decision. Decisions from other States on RKBA improperly held that RKBA was some kind of collective right or operative only in regard to militia service and also wrongly holding that RKBA was, therefore, limited to OC. In other words, building on the faulty foundation that RKBA is only for militia service, the courts held that there was no protection for personal CC. Yet we all know that foundation is flawed, so results springing from that foundation must also be questioned.

Charles

right. you make sense.

the KYSC's ruling made it possible for concealed carry to be legal for many years, until the legislature did something about it.

that's all i was saying.
 

utbagpiper

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Charles, you sure went back a long way for that bit of misinformation.

Which bit of information was incorrect, gutshot?

I went back as early as I could to see how the earliest court decisions applied RKBA to OC and CC. I used the earliest one I could find, which held that OC was protected by language materially the same as the federal 2nd amendment.

In 1881 the Ky. constitution was amended and the wording changed to this: Seventh: The right to bear arms in defense of themselves and of the State, subject to the power of the General Assembly to enact laws to prevent persons from carrying concealed weapons.

So you agree that the original KY State constitution permitted both OC and CC based on simple language about the "right to bear arms" and that it took specific anti-CC language in the re-written constitution in order to limit the RKBA to OC only?

I'm afraid I'm confused as to what our disagreement might be.

What am I missing?

Charles
 
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California Right To Carry

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now, CA, your soapbox rant 'bout right to conceal carry, i'm sure is well meanin' on some venue, somewhere on Al's invention, other than one dedicated to the citizens of this here country OPEN CARRYING their firearms...

dontcha think?

ipse

ps, prob some place where their intellect is the same level as your rant is written...

I think that your posts are unintelligible and I don't know why I haven't already added you to my ignore list.
 

California Right To Carry

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Please show me where the 2nd Amendment mentions a difference between the methods of "bear Arms" and mentions where one method of bearing (open carry) shall not be infringed while a different method of bearing (concealed carry) is OK to be infringed.

Amendment II

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Please stop using what is possibly the most moronic defense of concealed carry I have every encountered. It makes gun-owners look too stupid to even own a gun, let alone to carry one in public.

The Framers of the Second Amendment did not have to elaborate on the Second Amendment because the people who wrote it and voted to enact it into law understood what the Second Amendment meant. Likewise for the 1st Amendment. There is no mention of the First Amendment preventing human sacrifice because the Framers of the First Amendment weren't morons.
 
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