I'd guess a felony is possible. I initially considered that most likely when I had decided to attend. This meant that I had to accept that, if convicted, all possession or carry by me would then be illegal after that. There is some irony in that thought. A guy carries a firearm in a non-violent civil rights walk and is then deemed by the government to be not fit to posses a firearm again; "shall not be infringed" my behind!
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March on Washington 07-04-2013
- Thread starter Fuller Malarkey
- Start date
WalkingWolf
Regular Member
Check toy gun laws in DC, most non guns look very real, BUT they would not be able to charge you with firearm charges. Unless you were searched there would be little way to tell it was a toy. I will not be attending, but if I did it would be with a non gun replica, I just cannot see having one of my babies end up in a metal chopper.
WalkingWolf
Regular Member
Pfffft!
And Walmart is rationing ammo...
And Walmart is rationing ammo...
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I'm no longer planning to attend. The post is buried somewhere upstream in this thread. However, it's not because I don't believe that a march is necessary and that I don't agree with the marchers. I did have plans to purchasing a cheap, used single shot 12 gauge shotgun from the local pawnshop. I even had the one ancient one picked out. I had decided that there was no way I was letting DC take an AK or something and I figured it was easier for me to defend a charge pro se with an very old single shot hunting shotgun as opposed to more modern varieties of semiautomatic, magazine fed firearms.
Tucker6900
Regular Member
Kokesh makes a statement from Federal Prison
As of the 23rd...
According to recent radio interview featuring one of his associates, this event will happen with or without Adam. The AVM crew expected the .gov to attempt to "cut the head" off of this, and they prepared for it. Unfortunately for the .gov, the existence of the arrest video lacking the actions that he is being held for did nothing more than solidify the reason this march is happening.
Everything in his statement has happened. It cannot be denied. And I fully support this CONSTITUTIONAL EXERCISE!!
As of the 23rd...
According to recent radio interview featuring one of his associates, this event will happen with or without Adam. The AVM crew expected the .gov to attempt to "cut the head" off of this, and they prepared for it. Unfortunately for the .gov, the existence of the arrest video lacking the actions that he is being held for did nothing more than solidify the reason this march is happening.
Everything in his statement has happened. It cannot be denied. And I fully support this CONSTITUTIONAL EXERCISE!!
eye95
Well-known member
Are you saying that this "about" was or was not Kokesh's doing?
Are you saying that someone hacked his site?
Are you saying that someone faked the photo?
Are you saying that Kokesh works for Obama?
What are you contending?
Personally, I have only seen pro-Kokesh conspiracy theories contending that this is fake, and I have seen anti-Kokesh conspiracy theories that this really was on his website and was true. I don't believe either one of them.
I think he is a nutjob whether or not this "about" is his doing. What nutjobs do or do not do to each other is of little concern to me.
Not sure how much of that I understand. A week ago, and probibly 4 to 6 months from now, I would be dancing with Adam Kokesh at the Jefferson memoral, or going in favor of this upcoming march, even being there and participating, knowing that I would be arrested or worse. Things come up in life, people get sick, sometimes it's bad. At this point in my life, no, I wouldn't even legally carry in Youngstown Ohio. I have to be around and out of jail for now.
It is because of those brave enough to do this kind of thing, legal or not, that things are not to the point where one can be beaten and arrested because a cop don't like the way they look or dress, or over a bumper sticker on their car. I'm glad to see the number of those willing to exersize their natural rights, but I know, there needs to be more doing maybe not this, but something.
This march isn't for everyone, and being opposed to it, and/or Mr. Kokesh don't mean you don't care or contribute in your own way to the freedoms and rights that make humanity what it is. We all have to make our own choices.
Bonus Army Conflict, Date -July 28, 1932
Here's an interesting historical event which clearly illustrates how yOUR government has dealt with past incidents of "we the people" making demands on *them in the big house* and the final outcome of an unwelcomed display of the "common citizen" on *their* turf in DC.
~~~ "The Bonus Army was the popular name of an assemblage of some 43,000 marchers—17,000 World War I veterans, their families, and affiliated groups—who gathered in Washington, D.C., in the spring and summer of 1932 to demand cash-payment redemption of their service certificates. Its organizers called it the Bonus Expeditionary Force to echo the name of World War I's American Expeditionary Force, while the media called it the Bonus March. It was led by Walter W. Waters, a former Army sergeant.
Bonus Army Conflict, Date -July 28, 1932
Location = Washington D.C., United States of America
Belligerents = "Bonus Army" vs. The United States Army
US Army & Gov't Commanders were Herbert Hoover, Douglas MacArthur & George S. Patton
"Bonus Army" Leaders were Walter W. Waters, William Hushka † & Eric Carlson †
Strength, Bonus Army, 17,000 veterans & 26,000 others
US Army = 500 infantry, 500 cavalry, 6 Renault FT tanks & 800 police
Bonus Army Casualties and losses, 4 dead; 1,017 injured - The cornered police drew their revolvers and shot two veterans, William Hushka and Eric Carlson, who died later.
At least 69 police injured.
Result = Bonus Army dispersed, demands rejected
"U.S. Army intervention,
At 4:45 p.m., commanded by Gen. Douglas MacArthur, the 12th Infantry Regiment, Fort Howard, Maryland, and the 3rd Cavalry Regiment, supported by six battle tanks commanded by Maj. George S. Patton, formed in Pennsylvania Avenue while thousands of civil service employees left work to line the street and watch. The Bonus Marchers, believing the troops were marching in their honor, cheered the troops until Patton ordered[citation needed] the cavalry to charge them—an action which prompted the spectators to yell, "Shame! Shame!"
Shacks that members of the Bonus Army erected on the Anacostia Flats burning after the confrontation with the military.
After the cavalry charged, the infantry, with fixed bayonets and adamsite gas, an arsenical vomiting agent, entered the camps, evicting veterans, families, and camp followers. The veterans fled across the Anacostia River to their largest camp and President Hoover ordered the assault stopped. However Gen. MacArthur, feeling the Bonus March was an attempt to overthrow the U.S. government, ignored the President and ordered a new attack. Fifty-five veterans were injured and 135 arrested. A veteran's wife miscarried. When 12-week-old Bernard Myers died in the hospital after being caught in the tear gas attack, a government investigation reported he died of enteritis, while a hospital spokesman said the tear gas "didn't do it any good."
During the military operation, Major Dwight D. Eisenhower, later the 34th President of the United States, served as one of MacArthur's junior aides. Believing it wrong for the Army's highest-ranking officer to lead an action against fellow American war veterans, he strongly advised MacArthur against taking any public role: "I told that dumb son-of-a-bitch not to go down there," he said later. "I told him it was no place for the Chief of Staff." Despite his misgivings, Eisenhower later wrote the Army's official incident report which endorsed MacArthur's conduct."
"The Bonus Army incident proved disastrous for Hoover's chances at re-election; he lost the 1932 election in a landslide to Franklin D. Roosevelt."
Link to complete article :arrow:; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_Army
Let's hope & pray that history does Not repeat itself in this manner & result in as disastrous an outcome on this 4/July/2013.
View attachment 10469
Peace & Carry Safe !
Here's an interesting historical event which clearly illustrates how yOUR government has dealt with past incidents of "we the people" making demands on *them in the big house* and the final outcome of an unwelcomed display of the "common citizen" on *their* turf in DC.
~~~ "The Bonus Army was the popular name of an assemblage of some 43,000 marchers—17,000 World War I veterans, their families, and affiliated groups—who gathered in Washington, D.C., in the spring and summer of 1932 to demand cash-payment redemption of their service certificates. Its organizers called it the Bonus Expeditionary Force to echo the name of World War I's American Expeditionary Force, while the media called it the Bonus March. It was led by Walter W. Waters, a former Army sergeant.
Bonus Army Conflict, Date -July 28, 1932
Location = Washington D.C., United States of America
Belligerents = "Bonus Army" vs. The United States Army
US Army & Gov't Commanders were Herbert Hoover, Douglas MacArthur & George S. Patton
"Bonus Army" Leaders were Walter W. Waters, William Hushka † & Eric Carlson †
Strength, Bonus Army, 17,000 veterans & 26,000 others
US Army = 500 infantry, 500 cavalry, 6 Renault FT tanks & 800 police
Bonus Army Casualties and losses, 4 dead; 1,017 injured - The cornered police drew their revolvers and shot two veterans, William Hushka and Eric Carlson, who died later.
At least 69 police injured.
Result = Bonus Army dispersed, demands rejected
"U.S. Army intervention,
At 4:45 p.m., commanded by Gen. Douglas MacArthur, the 12th Infantry Regiment, Fort Howard, Maryland, and the 3rd Cavalry Regiment, supported by six battle tanks commanded by Maj. George S. Patton, formed in Pennsylvania Avenue while thousands of civil service employees left work to line the street and watch. The Bonus Marchers, believing the troops were marching in their honor, cheered the troops until Patton ordered[citation needed] the cavalry to charge them—an action which prompted the spectators to yell, "Shame! Shame!"
Shacks that members of the Bonus Army erected on the Anacostia Flats burning after the confrontation with the military.
After the cavalry charged, the infantry, with fixed bayonets and adamsite gas, an arsenical vomiting agent, entered the camps, evicting veterans, families, and camp followers. The veterans fled across the Anacostia River to their largest camp and President Hoover ordered the assault stopped. However Gen. MacArthur, feeling the Bonus March was an attempt to overthrow the U.S. government, ignored the President and ordered a new attack. Fifty-five veterans were injured and 135 arrested. A veteran's wife miscarried. When 12-week-old Bernard Myers died in the hospital after being caught in the tear gas attack, a government investigation reported he died of enteritis, while a hospital spokesman said the tear gas "didn't do it any good."
During the military operation, Major Dwight D. Eisenhower, later the 34th President of the United States, served as one of MacArthur's junior aides. Believing it wrong for the Army's highest-ranking officer to lead an action against fellow American war veterans, he strongly advised MacArthur against taking any public role: "I told that dumb son-of-a-bitch not to go down there," he said later. "I told him it was no place for the Chief of Staff." Despite his misgivings, Eisenhower later wrote the Army's official incident report which endorsed MacArthur's conduct."
"The Bonus Army incident proved disastrous for Hoover's chances at re-election; he lost the 1932 election in a landslide to Franklin D. Roosevelt."
Link to complete article :arrow:; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_Army
Let's hope & pray that history does Not repeat itself in this manner & result in as disastrous an outcome on this 4/July/2013.
View attachment 10469
Peace & Carry Safe !
Wouldn't it be remotely feasible to think that the aftermath of this march, or the attempt of doing it, would result in bringing the DC Anti-2A laws to SCOTUS and have this whole RKBA *Thang* be resolved through out the whole USA concerning Constitutional Carry ? or am I just dreaming ?!?!
Gil223
Regular Member
If it is true that "talk is cheap", there's been a fortune wasted on this thread (even though it probably holds the record for the most posts ever). Yes, it is thought provoking, but it has nothing to do with OC of properly holstered sidearms. :uhoh: Someone will be proven right and someone proven wrong on July 4th, but until the it's just some folks defending Kokesh against those who condemn Kokesh for being (at the least) foolish, and some essentially saying, "Wait and see." This thread has a lot in common with "Rocky XVIII" - it will never be resolved by us. Pax...
Pax...
Gil223
Regular Member
I did some research on this subject myself several years ago, and (if memory serves me) your facts are as I recall them. The Bonus Army march was intended as a plea to the government to make good on a promise made in 1924 by Congress. Congress voted to give a bonus to World War I veterans - $1.25 for each day served overseas, $1.00 for each day served in the States. The catch was that payment would not be made until 1945. However, by 1932 the nation had slipped into the dark days of the Depression and the unemployed veterans wanted their money immediately. "The Catch", much like our Social Security age requirement, was included in the hopes that by 1945 the majority of those who served their country would be dead. (In 1935 - the year Social Security was enacted, the average life expectancy for men was 59.9yrs, and for women 63.9yrs - Source: http://demog.berkeley.edu/~andrew/1918/figure2.html). The government has always made more - or more grandiose - promises than it ever intended to keep, and it continues to do so. Ask any Native AmerInd. Pax...
eye95
Well-known member
No. It wouldn't be feasible.
It would be if a small group of people quietly broke that law, got arrested only for breaking that law, got convicted, suffered the consequences of that conviction (at least until winning an appeal), and then fought the thing all the way to the Supreme Court. However, there are a few things standing in the way of that, most of them named Kokesh.
This will not be a simple case of breaking an unconstitutional law. 10,000 people planning to do this in an organized way, marching like an army, with their leader proudly proclaiming that the march is an "armed revolt" and that its goal is "overthrowing the government." Now no gun charge is necessary. The fact that they are breaking that law can be completely ignored, making appeal of the constitutionality of that law impossible.
Folks who participate in the march are risking their lives and freedom for nothing.
1. No statement will be made. The American People will generally see this as a bunch of extremist wackos trying to start a revolution. (They won't be far wrong. It will be led by an extremist wacko. Many extremist wackos will follow him. More well-meaning 2A advocates will be duped into following the head wacko.)
2. No laws will be overturned. Gun charges won't even be leveled against the survivors who are arrested.
3. The 2A will not be advanced. More people will become convinced by this event that guns are evil and need to be banned than will be convinced that the primary reason for the 2A is to make armed rebellion possible when and if the time comes.
Nothing will be gained by this march. Much will be lost. Not just by the wacko marchers, not just by the dupes who go along with the wackos, but by ALL of us, when the movement takes a gigantic step backward.
I am starting to hear people say they won't participate. Kokesh's image is taking a beating, even among the 2A advocacy community. He now has major practical problems to deal with before he can devote himself to this revolt. We can only hope that this thing does not come off.
Thundar
Regular Member
Where did you purchase that crystal ball that tells the future Eye 95?
We think we know what the police response might be. We think we might know the outcome of the first round of judicial proceedings. We absolutely do not know what the appellate proceedings would hold. We absolutely do not know what public opinion would be post march. We absolutely do not know what the political aftermath would entail.
I believe that the revolution language and what that means is hyperbolic at best. It is free speech. Until the say we will shoot, kill, etc. there is no way to ascribe violent intent to his free speech. Ron Paul said he wanted a revolution. Would he be denounced for his speech?
What we do know for sure is that a citizen and combat veteran desires to exercise his constitutional rights and has publicly stated his intention to do so.
Many will not march, perhaps a few will.
Many think it is time to be an activist, some do not.
Some think this is a brilliant activist event, most do not.
I will not denounce behavior that I believe is constitutional and just. I wish them well. I will not participate because I think there are far more effective means for the activist to employ to exercise their rights in the federal district.
I think we should openly carry on the Metro in Virginia (the Metro is the subway system of the Washington metro area.).
I also think we should make a big deal out of massive protest against .gov in Arlington, VA. Many parts of the federal behemoth are headquartered or supported there.
I think we should have empty flap holsters in DC.
Gil223
Regular Member
I don't believe anybody is questioning the constitutionality of such an event. The main question is the insufficiency of wisdom in the stated physical mechanics of the march. It has been established as a parade without a permit, with long guns and ammunition, and somewhere in the insane rhetoric it has the proclaimed intent to "overthrow the government".
There is also the matter of violating multiple local laws - although they may be in conflict with what we see as the intent of the Constitution, they are still the law until they are successfully challenged in the court system. They do need to be challenged, but loaded firearms in prohibited areas may not be the best/safest way to do that. Symbolic representation with clearly identified toy guns should suffice. The closed (but empty) flap holsters suggested would also keep LEO's busy wasting their time for quite awhile.
Again though, this is not advertised as a 2A/RKBA march, and firearms are nothing more than an accessory... which is what the participants may find themselves charged with should this event actually occur - accessory to attempted overthrow of the government/riot (if it gets out of hand). There are also potential personal charges to do with the violation of firearms statutes.
Do We the People need to get the attention of our government? YBYA we do! Will such an event get their attention? Just the threat of this event has gotten their attention. Is this the kind of attention we really want? I don't think so, but that's just my 2¢. Our government is becoming more intrusive and restrictive by the day because we allow them to. Would the elimination of firearms from this march make any difference one way or the other? Yes. It would help gun owners project a sane image, and it would give the government thugs fewer charges to bring against the participants. 10,000 unarmed marchers could easily represent the millions who could not (financially, physically and/or geographically) participate.
Pax...
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You aren't dreaming. That's one point of the march; a 1000 or more arrested so there becomes 1000 or more with standing to challenge in court.
If it is true that "talk is cheap", there's been a fortune wasted on this thread (even though it probably holds the record for the most posts ever). Yes, it is thought provoking, but it has nothing to do with OC of properly holstered sidearms. :uhoh: Someone will be proven right and someone proven wrong on July 4th, but until the it's just some folks defending Kokesh against those who condemn Kokesh for being (at the least) foolish, and some essentially saying, "Wait and see." This thread has a lot in common with "Rocky XVIII" - it will never be resolved by us.
I love the Rocky movies, 'cause the underdog always wins, some way, some how & some time sooner or later.
Here are some words of wisdom from Rocky (XVIII) Balboa ,,,
"Let me tell you something you already know. The world ain't all sunshine and rainbows. It is a very mean and nasty place and it will beat you to your knees and keep you there permanently if you let it. You, me, or nobody is gonna hit as hard as life. But it ain't how hard you hit; it's about how hard you can get hit, and keep moving forward. How much you can take, and keep moving forward. That's how winning is done. Now, if you know what you're worth, then go out and get what you're worth. But you gotta be willing to take the hit, and not pointing fingers saying you ain't where you are because of him, or her, or anybody. Cowards do that and that ain't you. You're better than that!
Rocky Balboa
Speaking to his son in Rocky Balboa (2006)
So go Get Em' in DC all of you RKBA Patriots, I'll be watching ya' from a safe distance ,,, in Maine !
Peace & Carry Safe !
Please correct me if I'm wrong, (and also further explanation of how to legally gain standing ,,, Lawsuits?) but I interpret your answer as meaning that if an individual believes that they are falsely accused &/or charged (without having actually been detained in jail) then they shall follow the natural recourse of taking it to the judicial system in order to resolve said "Accusation" against the common citizenery ?
I hope this makes sense.
AFAIK, one has to have been denied the RKBA in DC before they are going to have standing. I cannot get a court case going whilst sitting in Ohio. Some action (and yes, it doesn't have to be an arrest) must be performed by federal or DC government that is specific before I can have standing to challenge something. (Not getting into the presidential elections, however, those of us who followed those suits repeatedly heard the courts telling litigants that they lacked standing.)
Now, perhaps there is something I'm missing or have forgotten. I'm open to being enlightened or reminded.
ETA: I do hope that you understand that I'm not stating nor did I state that an arrest was absolutely necessary. I thought I was being clear in that an arrest would give initial standing but standing is not only because of arrest. On a criminal charge (arrest) there might be an opportunity for jury nullification. Then there is the setup for an appeal, etc...
ETA(again): To further clarify; by DC simply refusing entry into the city would give some standing, IMHO. I saw three immediate possible outcomes to the march. 1) DC allows it. 2) DC stops it. 3) Arrests or murder. 1) We are more free than some might think. 2 & 3) Standing in court
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shastadude17
Regular Member
>implying the desire for freedom makes someone a nutjob