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Elementry School Shooting. Kids killed. Shooter dead.

crossfireltd

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 30, 2007
Messages
29
Location
Richmond, Virginia, USA
My heartfelt condolences and sympathy go out to the families and friends effected by this tragedy. Being a survivor of 9/11 and having lost immediate family members on that day, I know exactly they are going through.

Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 2
 

JoeSparky

Centurion
Joined
Jun 20, 2008
Messages
3,621
Location
Pleasant Grove, Utah, USA
+1

I will not be denied my righteous indignation!


Curse me or stomp me, but do NOT mess with the children. They are more precious than life itself.

I'd put your's and anybody else's RIGHTEOUS INDIGNATION right smack in the middle of CONTROLLED or REASONED ANGER, or IN CONTROL of one's anger....

Just make sure you are RIGHT in this... LOL (just yanking your leg here)
 

Sig229

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 14, 2006
Messages
926
Location
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USA
Hmm, are we as firearm owners ready to acknowledge its easier to slaughter 27 people with a firearm than a knife?


Apparently its just as easy to kill 22 children with a knife as it is a gun. Especially when nobody in the school is able to fight back against the attacker.
But Im sure the anti's and Obama wont think if that when he hands down an executive order this week.
Look here, this just happened yesterday:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/man-attacks-22-kids-knife-china-school-article-1.1220230
 
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KBCraig

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2007
Messages
4,886
Location
Granite State of Mind
Naturally, fear-mongerring, Obama's going to grab our guns now, paranoid clingers unite. How about we wait a few hours, maybe first talk about how terrible this is...
I agree. Unfortunately, your guy didn't bother waiting until we had a firm body count.

"And we're going to have to come together and take meaningful action to prevent more tragedies like this, regardless of the politics."
http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2012/12/14/president-obama-speaks-shooting-connecticut

Translation: anyone who stands in the way of more gun control is just playing politics.
 

Jakeus314

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2012
Messages
81
Location
Michigan
I personally believe we've done it there way long enough. It's not working. It's time to let the teacher carry to help protect themselves, and our kids.

I just can't comprehend the fear that some people have... They say crap like "we need less guns around kids, not more" and "teachers will just start shooting kids for getting out of line" !!! I am just amazed at the stupidity!

We need less holes in children etc and more fear in the hearts of killers. The death penalty is just not enough for some trash.
 

EMNofSeattle

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2012
Messages
3,670
Location
S. Kitsap, Washington state
Here's a politically workable solution that I think might work... if there is enough support

We amend Washington law (I'm suggesting this for my state, but feel free to copy it if you like it :) ) to allow for what I will call a "school security volunteer peace officer"

the SSVPO will be volunteers, either classified staff or parents, CJ students, or other members of the community who are willing to spend one day a week volunteering at an elementary school or junior high (this way the LEA's School Resource Officer can be focused on high schools) and will be subject to a background investigation.

the SSVPO will receive 40 hours of training with half of that beeing marksmanship... They will have limited on-duty powers of arrest and be licensed to carry a firearm on school grounds during their volunteer day. They, by my hypothetical law, will be there only to make arrests or use deadly force to stop FELONIES on school property, not as a truancy enforcer or to help carry out school policy.

They will be plainclothes, carrying their issue weapon (I think the S&W Shield .40 would be a good choice for that) and handcuffs and ID under a jacket. they will spend their volunteer day doing stuff other volunteers normally do, but will be ready to act if violence occurs on skrool property


now some will say "we should just be able to carry our guns in school property like everywhere else" Hey, I don't disagree with that, but it's unlikely to happen in the current political climate... I think my idea could be sold to the public easier. and would be much cheaper then contracting with Allied Barton for armed guards or having police officers in school all the time....
 
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EMNofSeattle

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2012
Messages
3,670
Location
S. Kitsap, Washington state
Who would honestly volunteer for that? Maybe I'm just a negative Nancy. I think if you are legally able to carry you should be able to period, no matter where you are. However you will never immediately sway people to oppose their original position. Maybe we can request that their be one police officer assigned to each school to start off with.

Sent from my phone. Excuse spelling mistakes as my fingers like to press the wrong letters and auto correct sometimes does not catch it.

I think volunteers can be found, their will always be criminal justice students looking to pad their resume for a police job, or a concerned parent who is a gun owner, or a retired police officer who wants something to do. or a pro-2A janitor who will have no problem carrying at work...

or someone who usually volunteers for their kids class unarmed anyway and they might be willing to do the training and carry while they volunteer.

the thing with police officers to a school is.... ok lets work out some math.

I live in Kitsap County, in my area of the county, there are 16 schools, although two of them share a campus with another, so 14 locations. 3 are inside the city of Port Orchard, the rest are in the unincorporated county.

so that's 11 schools to cover, in south kitsap. the sheriff's office has one deputy assigned as an SRO to cover 11 schools. the total on duty resources in south district, are 4 deputies plus their sergeant on patrol. 2 traffic officers plus sergeant during the day, and 4 detectives plus their supervisor. so that's 12 officers, not including the sheriff, division chiefs, lieutenants, etc who all work out of the actual office location in port orchard. so who would respond to 911 calls while the entire shift is each at a school? hire more officers? well show me the moolah to hire them, considering our sheriff had to secure a federal grant to avoid lay-offs.

full time police at each school is not practical.

city of port orchard has 4 officers, sergeant, day shift detective, and narcotics detective, 7 people and three schools in their area to cover, more doable, but leaves them woefully undermanned....
 

TheMrs

New member
Joined
Aug 11, 2012
Messages
5
Location
CT
You are right. NOT!

We need to get a clue?

There's plenty of time?

Are you ok?

We all now know where you stand, so how many children must die before we rescind this law?

How many people in general must die before we stop making gun-free zones?

We have people screaming for the ability to restrict law-abiding citizens access to firearms, and to abolish the Second Amendment -- people with "power." So when is the time to talk about what NEEDS to be done?

I am tired of listening to news reports where children are murdered because NOBODY WAS AROUND THAT COULD DEFEND THEM! Plain and simple, this will NOT stop until our teachers and other law-abiding citizens are able to carry in schools. Had a teacher or two been armed this would not have been anywhere near as bad as it was, if it would've even happened. These psycho people would not even attempt these murders if they knew they would be killed before they had the ability to kill innocent children!

The liberals can scream take this, do that, government is god all they want, but everything they say makes no sense to a person with a logical thought process.

We have laws that make murder illegal; that make assault illegal; that make battery illegal; that make carrying the tools this man used to kill with illegal on K-12 school property; that make abusing a child illegal; and on and on and on and on.

When will people realize that words on paper only stop the LAW-ABIDING CITIZEN from committing an act that has been deemed illegal?

We need physical deterrance, not more worthless legislation! Laws punish people after the act and are completely worthless.

If a lunatic is going to storm a school and kill innocent children a law will not stop them, as can be proven all throughout history! The only thing that will stop them are people with the ability to protect themselves while the act is occuring.

The time to stand up and demand these foolish laws rescinded is NOW, not later! I am tired of these worthless laws taking the lives of our children!


Yes! The anti-gun folks will not wait to act on this, and while we sit back, waiting for the sting to wear off the anti-gun folks will have already won. Now is the time to speak up.
 

marshaul

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
11,188
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia
Here's a politically workable solution that I think might work... if there is enough support

We amend Washington law (I'm suggesting this for my state, but feel free to copy it if you like it :) ) to allow for what I will call a "school security volunteer peace officer"

the SSVPO will be volunteers, either classified staff or parents, CJ students, or other members of the community who are willing to spend one day a week volunteering at an elementary school or junior high (this way the LEA's School Resource Officer can be focused on high schools) and will be subject to a background investigation.

the SSVPO will receive 40 hours of training with half of that beeing marksmanship... They will have limited on-duty powers of arrest and be licensed to carry a firearm on school grounds during their volunteer day. They, by my hypothetical law, will be there only to make arrests or use deadly force to stop FELONIES on school property, not as a truancy enforcer or to help carry out school policy.

They will be plainclothes, carrying their issue weapon (I think the S&W Shield .40 would be a good choice for that) and handcuffs and ID under a jacket. they will spend their volunteer day doing stuff other volunteers normally do, but will be ready to act if violence occurs on skrool property


now some will say "we should just be able to carry our guns in school property like everywhere else" Hey, I don't disagree with that, but it's unlikely to happen in the current political climate... I think my idea could be sold to the public easier. and would be much cheaper then contracting with Allied Barton for armed guards or having police officers in school all the time....

That's quite the pipe dream you've worked up there.

Let's be honest with ourself: such a ridiculous plan will never come about. The antis will have no problem turning "armed volunteers" into "school vigilantes" or some such.

Frankly, although this would in actual fact be more liberal than some kind of creepy "volunteer" system, I think it would be an easier sell to simply allow certain teachers and administrators to be armed. Throw in some kind of perfunctory qualification to appease the worry-worts and you might have a playable strategy.

When I was a kid, I remember my small, public elementary school had a gym teacher who was a vietnam veteran (and more, but decades later I've forgotten the rest. Suffice it to say his combat experience was extensive) – this was not the kind of guy you would want to mess with. This teacher was universally regarded in the community as a tough SOB, most parents liked having at least one guy like that around. At the same time, he was a really good teacher of elementary school P.E., and the kids liked him and vice-versa.

Accepting that Brady Bunch diehards will never see reason, I have a hard time imagining most normal parents not feeling safer with a guy like my P.E. teacher having the means to defend his kids. Now, compare that to the prospect of some (as the media might portray it) right-wing militia-type "vigilante" "volunteer" hanging around school a few times a week, armed and doing who knows what most of the time. (Frankly, the idea kind of creeps me out. What kind of people, exactly, would seek out such a gig?)

I understand where the idea comes from, but it's a rather naïve attempt at dealing with the problem of the public accepting an armed (non-law enforcement) presence in schools. You have to realize, it's all perception. The actual tolerance to guns created by a new approach has no correlation to how it's perceived. Remember, we're talking about a public which perceives a simple prohibition ("you shall not bring guns to school!") as somehow able to prevent anyone, ever, who desires to bring a gun to a school from doing so (especially someone with such disregard for law as to plan to commit murder).

It's all how you frame it, and word it. And yes, it's ironic that the more gun-tolerant position may be the easier sell, but such is life. And anyway, why aim for such a measly "solution"? What good is one part-time volunteer going to do? And what's the point of all those rules, anyway? It's not like, back in reality, licensure or the like has any real function, purpose, or conceivable benefit (beyond filling the pockets of those enforcing the need for such a "license").

And, by the way, if you think I'm full of it, consider the following:

Third-grader Alexis Wasik said police and teachers barged into her classroom and told students to hide in the corner.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/14/us/connecticut-school-shooting/index.html

Apparently, our state-sponsored heroes were already on the scene when the shooting started, but they were too busy hiding from danger, and doing what the teachers would already be doing without any need for police "assistance", to actually try to stop this guy at the first sound of a gunshot.

And this is what you think will solve the problem? Another state-sponsored hero? Whoopty-do. Thank god my kids will be safe now! :rolleyes:

I tell you what: if I had to trust my kid's life to another person, I'd pick someone like my former P.E. teacher, who actually cared about the kids, and dedicated his work to teaching them, over some state-vetted, part-time "volunteer" with a worthless license and an inflated, security-guard-like sense of importance, any day. Especially if they're both armed.
 
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beebobby

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Joined
Sep 22, 2008
Messages
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I'm not calling for anymore restrictions on gun ownership/carry on law abiding citizens, but my god people, most thinking Americans who are aware of this tragedy are going to demand, from government, some kind of plan to prevent this in the future. I know that 99.99% of legal gun owners are not a danger to other citizens, but a big chunk of Americans are going to lable this guy a "gun nut" and gun enthusiasts are going to get painted with that broad brush. I believe our enthusiast community need to be careful not to act like "gun nuts" and turn this into a "poor me, they are coming for my high cap mags" and , until emotions settle down, keep this about the victims. Trying to turn this into some kind of govt. conspiracy would be a mistake.
 

SpringerXDacp

New member
Joined
May 12, 2006
Messages
3,341
Location
Burton, Michigan
I'm not calling for anymore restrictions on gun ownership/carry on law abiding citizens, but my god people, most thinking Americans who are aware of this tragedy are going to demand, from government, some kind of plan to prevent this in the future. I know that 99.99% of legal gun owners are not a danger to other citizens, but a big chunk of Americans are going to lable this guy a "gun nut" and gun enthusiasts are going to get painted with that broad brush. I believe our enthusiast community need to be careful not to act like "gun nuts" and turn this into a "poor me, they are coming for my high cap mags" and , until emotions settle down, keep this about the victims. Trying to turn this into some kind of govt. conspiracy would be a mistake.

Interesting.

After reading a dozen or so news articles, several hundred threads/posts across several forums, and considering the shooter had two handguns (Glock & Sig) in the school, and an AR in the car, this is the first time I read anything about mag capacity. There's been no mention of 30-bullet clips or even shoulder things that go up. I believe it is "you" that needs to allow emotions to settle down.
 

beebobby

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Sep 22, 2008
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Interesting.

After reading a dozen or so news articles, several hundred threads/posts across several forums, and considering the shooter had two handguns (Glock & Sig) in the school, and an AR in the car, this is the first time I read anything about mag capacity. There's been no mention of 30-bullet clips or even shoulder things that go up. I believe it is "you" that needs to allow emotions to settle down.

You missed my point. I'm just saying we don't need to make this about our rights, right now. Let the national outrage diminish.
 

carolina guy

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2012
Messages
1,737
Location
Concord, NC
The sad reality is that you will never stop evil people from planning and trying to carry out evil.

The best that can be done with a public situation like this is to give everyone the best chance to defend themselves. I stand by my feeling that a school district that was actually serious about security and safety (and with an obvious change to eliminate the GFSZ stupidity), would simply make it a requirement of employment that all teachers and employees that have direct control over the children are issued a sidearm and taught how to use it properly. Don't like carrying a sidearm? There are other school districts that would likely hire that teacher.

With that said, it is still the responsibility of the parents to keep their children safe. Period. When you turn that responsibility over to other people, you better be absolutely sure they can and will do as good a job as you would do. Anything less is a failure. There have been too many of these tragedies worldwide, parents take heed ... Keep your little ones close and safe!
 

HankT

State Researcher
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Feb 20, 2007
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Invisible Mode
WTF is going on in this country? The idea that more guns make us safer isn't going to fly with most Americans after these kinds of incidences. I don't know what I, as a gun owner/enthusiast, can do or say to persuade folks that guns don't kill people when 18 children die.
I agree that the MGGLGB (more guns good, less guns bad) argument is impossible to sell. It is a flawed concept, impossible to effectively implement.

The MGGLGB philosophy is as deficient as the so-called gun free zone concept. They're both very unrealistic and cannot be fully implemented.

Gun massacres by both law abiding citizens (before the gun incident) and criminals seem to be increasing, at least in intensity. A gun massacre of 20 defenseless little children is the worst carnage that I have ever heard of other than maybe the Dunblane massacre and the Virginia Tech shootup.

I look for the political structure and the citizenry of the U.S. to propose new regulation on gun acquisition, at least. And probably on gun type/capacity/features like the old AWB. This proposal will be based on the silly premise of LGGMGB (less guns good, more guns bad).

I don't yet see why such a proposal would not be successful in today's political social environment. The NRA has been doing a wonderful job staving off gun restrictive regs and laws. It has dominated the legislative sphere in the last two decades. But I am not sure even the NRA can save us from the backlash of Newtown. Especially if pictures of the carnage ever get out in public.

Both MGGLGB and LGGMGB are deficient philosophies. Simplism, at its most telling, and worst expression.
 

beebobby

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I'm sure that those surviving children at the school would be comforted by seeing their teachers OCing ./s
 

HankT

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A good point

I'm sure that those surviving children at the school would be comforted by seeing their teachers OCing ./s
You bring up an interesting aspect: What will be the effect of the Newtown gun massacre on OC?
If any.

I hadn't thought about that angle.
 

beebobby

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At the risk of forming an opinion on incomplete info, this is shaping up to be another incident involving a troubled young man who was exhibiting increasing evidence of an impending psycotic break, as has been the case in many of these massacres. I don't see how anyone could have forseen this, other than perhaps his mom.
 

hjmoosejaw

Regular Member
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Mar 29, 2011
Messages
406
Location
N.W. Pa.
People determined to kill,are going to kill. If you take away guns, they can just use pipe bombs, or whatever.
 

carolina guy

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Jun 21, 2012
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Location
Concord, NC
I'm sure that those surviving children at the school would be comforted by seeing their teachers OCing ./s

More than likely YES. Kids are very resilient and when they hear that it is to "stop any other bad man" they will more than likely stop paying any attention to it from that point on.
 
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