Bronson
Regular Member
Above the door at my local YMCA: "If you always do what you've always done, you'll always be what you've always been."
Bronson
-
We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
-
If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
-
Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.
The NRA, $$$, SB59 and why we should stop it.
- Thread starter Michigander
- Start date
Above the door at my local YMCA: "If you always do what you've always done, you'll always be what you've always been."
Bronson
stainless1911
Banned
God knew what He was doing when He put the past where it is.
SB59 is a step in nailing shut the coffin of OC. Once this bill passes you will get precious little attention or help from the Legislature and their reaction to Constitutional carry will be along the lines of "we helped you get CC in PFZ's what more do you want, I am too busy for this." or something close. SB59 is the shut the open carry people up bill.
I agree with Michigander on this one and the NRA has done nothing for open carry and has worked tirelessly with the anti gun crowd to destroy and erode Constitutional carry and turn it into a mere privilege which will be some day revoked due to some reason or made up one. To trade your Constitutional rights for a mere privilege borders on insanity. I like many was excited to see this bill till I thought long and hard about it and the implications.
“Those who would give up Essential Liberty, to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety"
Benjamin Franklin (actual quote not the modern sanitized version)
I agree with Michigander on this one and the NRA has done nothing for open carry and has worked tirelessly with the anti gun crowd to destroy and erode Constitutional carry and turn it into a mere privilege which will be some day revoked due to some reason or made up one. To trade your Constitutional rights for a mere privilege borders on insanity. I like many was excited to see this bill till I thought long and hard about it and the implications.
“Those who would give up Essential Liberty, to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety"
Benjamin Franklin (actual quote not the modern sanitized version)
stainless1911
Banned
Do you have a better idea...that would work?
detroit_fan
Regular Member
so what bill are you proposing that can actually pass?
and what does the nra have to do with this?????
Last edited:
scot623
Regular Member
SB59 is nailing shut the coffin on OC?! Dude, you need to step back from the keyboard at 3am and get some sleep.
I hear the Michigan Hospital Association, the School Boards and PTA are looking for a lead lobbyist to fight this "evil bill". Who from our pro-2A community will step up and lead the fight to kill this bill for them?
BTW, anyone talking about "trading constitutional rights for a privilege being insanity" better not have CPL or modern pistols bought with a purchase permit. It would come off hypocritical to use these "privileges" while you rail against them. At least Crosspistols had the conviction to turn in his CPL and carry an antique firearm to make his stand.
Last edited:
stainless1911
Banned
+1 You dont realise how bad the CPL system is until they take it from you without cause. Then you really get it.
Venator
Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter
I have 8 people on ignore, 6 of them are Pat. He seems to think I turned him in to the admins, never have, never will, he can say what he wants under any name he chooses. There is no limit on the ignore list.
detroit_fan
Regular Member
ok, please explain to me how SB59 effects OC at all except making the PFZ loophole less of a loophole?
and also please explain how this is "nailing the coffin shut on OC"?
Golden Eagle
Regular Member
I will...
The people that do not like to see OC in PFZ's say "why don't you at least conceal carry" and we can say we legally can't.
If this bill passes we will again be told to "cover it up" or there will be a new bill to say it.
Last edited:
DetroitBiker
Regular Member
"There are some conservatives so imbued with their ideology that rather than take half a loaf, they'd prefer to ride their high horse right off a cliff and crash to the ground while holding their flag flying high."
-- Ronald Reagan
^copied from Partdeux in MGO thread
PDinDetroit
Regular Member
Since this bill does not contain the language nor meaning you are proscribing to it, I would say that this is merely unfounded fears. Since there is no "must or shall conceal" legal language in this bill or anywhere else other than your post, I will again say that this is merely unfounded fears.
stainless1911
Banned
Slightly better to be told to cover than to leave, or stay unarmed.
Private proprerty rules apply.
Last edited:
scot623
Regular Member
No different for CPL holders today OCing in a park, Meijers, sidewalks, city council meetings, hardware stores...should I go on? Everyone of those places we can conceal but choose not too. If someone asks why I don't conceal I stand for up for myself and my rights and say "I CHOOSE to open carry". That will never change. I don't need a law that forces me to open carry...maybe you do.
detroit_fan
Regular Member
I think Scott and PD covered what my response to this would have been.
Last edited:
Golden Eagle
Regular Member
Just took a stab at answering your question I have no fear either way,
good answers.
Last edited:
xarmy9
Regular Member
We see this bill as a stepping stone to eliminate PFZ's. Some might also see it as a stepping stone to eliminate OC. The thing is, this bill does a lot of really good things. Getting rid of gun boards, and putting teeth into shall issue. Also giving people a way to conceal in PFZ's. It could be used as a step by some to try to end OC. We would then oppose that bill or attempt. The other issue with this possibly benefiting the NRA and adding extra training, while I don't like either of those things, they are not worse than the problems that this bill would fix. It would be great too if someone or a group of us could start a state training organization so we would have an alternative to the NRA.
SB-59 is not a bad bill, and it not having anything tied to it that is anti-OC is a good sign that the sponsors and the committee that passed it aren't looking to get rid of OC. I thought about this bill a lot, and I have read it in its entirety and I feel comfortable supporting it.
SB-59 is not a bad bill, and it not having anything tied to it that is anti-OC is a good sign that the sponsors and the committee that passed it aren't looking to get rid of OC. I thought about this bill a lot, and I have read it in its entirety and I feel comfortable supporting it.
PDinDetroit
Regular Member
And scot623 (Rob) and I (Paul) would be there opposing such efforts, right there with you.
TheQ
Regular Member
Phillip Hofmeister (TheQ), Michigan Open Carry, Inc President would be also.
I can't speak for MCRGO, but from what I'm beginning to come to know about them -- they'd oppose it too. That's why I recently became a member.
3
313
Guest
How about a CPL burning at the CSDL rally?
Why SB 59 is a bad thing for gun owners
My friends, after a long and drawn out battle over our domain name with another company our site is back and we have a VERY urgent message for you!
Currently there is a bill up for vote called SB59. Some of you may be aware of this bill and its contents, other may not. Recently, some of our members asked for our feedback on this bill. Several key topics are included in SB59, the main issue being allowing citizens who take an extra day of CPL training to carry in pistol free zones. This bill does nothing to restore our Constitutional Rights, nor does it bring us closer to our goal of Constitutional Carry. In fact the only thing this bill does is continue to dangle the carrot in front of lawful gun owners that if we want the "right" to carry in pistol free zones we need more training as mandated by the Government. Individuals will not be forced to take this additional training if they do not choose, but they will be forced to take it if they wish to exercise a right that they should have anyway. If I can open carry in a school or a bar with a valid CPL with no additional training that what I have already received, how does putting my shirt over my firearm make me less responsible therefore requiring me to take more training?
We always say that laws make no sense, this one is no different. The goal should be to repeal current legislation, not continue to layer it with more nonsensical bureaucratic red tape. Some will argue that you need to take "baby steps" to accomplish the overall goal, you can't get there in one leap, it takes time. In my opinion this is a cop out. If all firearm owners united and fought for Constitutional Carry the message to our elected officials would be overwhelming, but instead society has become accustom to taking bread crumbs we are given. Have we lost our way? Have we forgotten that WE are the people that our Constitution refers to? Have we become so indoctrinated that we grab the first thing thrown our way and call it a step in the right direction? I pray we have not gotten to that point. I believe that there is still fight in us to take back what is rightfully ours.
In short, CLSD can not support SB59 in its current form. This contradicts that very principles that I founded this organization on. On May 19th at the Constitutional Carry Rally I will deliver a speech on restoring our rights, if we supported this bill I would not even be able to look you all in the eye, how could I stand up there and say, "I support Constitutional Carry and the 2nd Amendment, BUT......". General Patton was quoted as saying "Anyone, in any walk of life who is content with mediocrity is untrue to himself and the American way."
I encourage all members to research this bill for yourselves and draw your own conclusions.
We will NOT compromise! We will not settle! Thank you for your time and consideration.
Carry on,
John Roshek
President / CEO, Citizens League For Self Defense, Inc.
http://www.johnroshek.com/2012/03/why-sb-59-is-bad-thing-for-gun-owners.html
Why SB 59 is a bad thing for gun owners
My friends, after a long and drawn out battle over our domain name with another company our site is back and we have a VERY urgent message for you!
Currently there is a bill up for vote called SB59. Some of you may be aware of this bill and its contents, other may not. Recently, some of our members asked for our feedback on this bill. Several key topics are included in SB59, the main issue being allowing citizens who take an extra day of CPL training to carry in pistol free zones. This bill does nothing to restore our Constitutional Rights, nor does it bring us closer to our goal of Constitutional Carry. In fact the only thing this bill does is continue to dangle the carrot in front of lawful gun owners that if we want the "right" to carry in pistol free zones we need more training as mandated by the Government. Individuals will not be forced to take this additional training if they do not choose, but they will be forced to take it if they wish to exercise a right that they should have anyway. If I can open carry in a school or a bar with a valid CPL with no additional training that what I have already received, how does putting my shirt over my firearm make me less responsible therefore requiring me to take more training?
We always say that laws make no sense, this one is no different. The goal should be to repeal current legislation, not continue to layer it with more nonsensical bureaucratic red tape. Some will argue that you need to take "baby steps" to accomplish the overall goal, you can't get there in one leap, it takes time. In my opinion this is a cop out. If all firearm owners united and fought for Constitutional Carry the message to our elected officials would be overwhelming, but instead society has become accustom to taking bread crumbs we are given. Have we lost our way? Have we forgotten that WE are the people that our Constitution refers to? Have we become so indoctrinated that we grab the first thing thrown our way and call it a step in the right direction? I pray we have not gotten to that point. I believe that there is still fight in us to take back what is rightfully ours.
In short, CLSD can not support SB59 in its current form. This contradicts that very principles that I founded this organization on. On May 19th at the Constitutional Carry Rally I will deliver a speech on restoring our rights, if we supported this bill I would not even be able to look you all in the eye, how could I stand up there and say, "I support Constitutional Carry and the 2nd Amendment, BUT......". General Patton was quoted as saying "Anyone, in any walk of life who is content with mediocrity is untrue to himself and the American way."
I encourage all members to research this bill for yourselves and draw your own conclusions.
We will NOT compromise! We will not settle! Thank you for your time and consideration.
Carry on,
John Roshek
President / CEO, Citizens League For Self Defense, Inc.
http://www.johnroshek.com/2012/03/why-sb-59-is-bad-thing-for-gun-owners.html