I Had My First Encounter With A LEO Today…Long, Very Long Story…

PC > RAS & a Scenario

Why refer to PC regarding a stop/detention? Only RAS is needed. PC is required for an arrest. I think it is fair to assume that if no arrest takes place, there was no PC. Search is not automatically ok during a detention. Separate RAS for a weapon is required. Scenario:

1. A reliable witness (let's assume) sees a 6' 6" man in a green Hawaiian shirt with a loaded, holstered revolver in CVS pharmacy buying prophylactics. Witness sees at least one cartridge so he knows its loaded.
2. Witness loses sight of the man for five minutes while buying laxatives and DentuGrip.
3. Witness next sees the man in CVS parking lot driving away in a DeLorean.
4. Witness has discussion with LEO about the man.
5. Five minutes later, LEO spots a DeLorean in Walmart parking lot a mile from CVS. A very tall man in a green floral print shirt is standing next to the car holding a box of rubbers. He has a semi-auto in his holster. The bottom of a magazine is visible.

RAS? PC? Of what? Does the man have to show ID? A driver's license? Why or why not?

If this is happening in California (DeLorean, green Hawaiian shirts, prophylactics - all give it away that he is Charlie Sheen)

Open Car Carry Firearms may be openly carried in cars in unincorporated areas unless the county has made open carry illegal, or, pursuant to a CA open carry permit issued (and apparently valid only in) a county with a population of less than 200,000 persons.

Arrest the sucker!!

oh wait - 6' 6" tall - he must have platform shoes on too

apjonas said:

Why refer to PC regarding a stop/detention? Only RAS is needed. PC is required for an arrest. I think it is fair to assume that if no arrest takes place, there was no PC. Search is not automatically ok during a detention. Separate RAS for a weapon is required.

Click to expand...

Actually any time you are detained, no additional RAS is needed to pat you down for a weaopn... see Terry v. Ohio (1968).
Furthermore, any illegal items found on you during that pat down are admissible. Said contraband must be obvious through the defendants clothing. See Minnesota v. Dickerson (1993).

Originally Posted by CalicoJack10 View Post
I was informed by a LEO that without consent, they could not lawfully search a vehicle anymore, even with PC. Could you please show me where the law is that says they can. Also, without the commission of a crime, I would like to see where you are required to produce identification. I have refused to give up my ID several times with no ill effect.

CJ, I would STRONGLY suggest you get a copy of that "Legal Update" concerning search W/O consent, I think you may have been mis-informed or may have mis-interpreted the info.

WOW. That's not exactly what I'd call a nice little encounter with officer nosypants. Well, your rights are yours. You can do what you want with them. May I cordially suggest a few videos?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqMjMPlXzdA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08fZQWjDVKE&feature=related

Police have been getting away with searching vehicles by using what they call 'Terry Search Of vehicle" to make sure no weapons are immediately within reach.

The easiest and best way to make sure this does not happen is to exit your vehicle, lock the doors, and place the keys in your pocket.
What this does is removes "Immediately accessible" and even "Accessible" from the equation. since the doors are locked, and you are outside of the vehicle, there is now legal ability for the cop to search without glaringly obvious probable cause such as a loaded revolver plainly on the dashboard, or on the seat. I do not think a cased gun could be considered accessible, especially if it is in a locked vehicle. And since it is cased, there is no possible way to see if it is loaded or not.
Asked if there are guns in the car? I would reply with "Why do you ask?" and keep skirting the question and refuse to answer.
A tip from someone does not make probable cause unless the officer is able to corroborate the tip.
If a tip was considered PC, that would mean a neighbor could say your selling drugs, and this would allow them to bust in and search for drugs on a tip alone, and that is just not legal in this country (yet)

I have had cops threaten all sorts of crap to get me to consent to searches, I stand my ground and refuse them access and I have yet to get arrested , cuffed, or the dog brought out even though they swore up & down all of that would take place. Do not be coerced by their threats and lies!

i guess this whole experience could be called a 'close encounter of the cop kind'.

Staying in your vehicle, waiting for LEO to approach you.
Reason why, when LEO initiates a traffic stop/contact, you are at that point under "temporary arrest". Yes a traffic citation is considered to be a temporary detainment! You know this because after the "investigation" the officer closes the contact with either a citation, written/verbal warning or arrest.
If you do not fall under the ladder, (arrest) LEO surrenders your DL back to you and informs you "you are free to go" thus ending the contact.
During the whole contact, LEO can order you to do various actions. If you do what is called "furtive movements" during the time LEO initiates the stop/contact you do jeopardize their safety. LEO can articulate specific conditions, like day/night, neighborhood, activity observed, known drug activity in area and so on, making their decisions for them is not what you want to do.
I say, do what you wish, to those that disagree, however you may argue this point, you're entitled.
To add a little humor to this topic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj0mtxXEGE8

I've always been told that getting out of the vehicle was considered somewhat aggressive and confrontational and the officer would be a little less friendly about things.

But then again, staying in the car opens me up to involuntary searches?. I haven't been pulled over in a long time but, I dont want to give away my right to privacy....

Hmmm..... ponderous

I just got off the phone with the records department for the sheriffs office. The lady I spoke to was very pleasant, polite, and extremley helpfull. I told her that I was involved with county sheriff contact on Snday morning and I wanted to stop in a pick up the "report" of the contact. She asked if it was a traffic accident and I told her know and that I was checked for a loaded wepon in my car. She was still polite and very willing to help. She asked if I had a "case" number and I told her no and that I was not arrested. She asked location, and time of day. After a brief seach she located the incident on her computer. She infomred me that an actual "report" had not been filled. I told her that I wanted a hard copy on what happened for my files. She then said that for 50 cents I could come in a pick up a "call for service" document. I asked and she also gave me the officers full name (which I will not reveal here) as well as reference number for the doscument. Without my asking she went out of her way to give mr the address and sprcific directions to their location and informed me that they are open 24 hrs a day. I will pick up the document (my terminology) after work today and report back as to its contents. I was on a vacation day yesterday and very busy with unexpected stuff, so today is the first day I literally had the time to get this done...

Outdoorsman1

Glock34 said:

1. Can I check your gun to see if it's loaded ....NO .. Probable cause ??? .... GET WARRANT
2. Can I see your ID ? ....NO Open carry is legal, I have violated no law
3. Where did you get your gun...NONE of your business
4. Can I run your Pistol to see if it's stolen ? ....NO .......GET WARRANT

Dude.. I am glad you thought this was such a great interaction with a LEO but you reacted as the typical sheep would. Stand up for your self.... If you claim to know the law as well as you do......then you know that you could have said no to everything & the cops know that too.

Click to expand...

+1

Wow...try not to trip over your rights, as you fetch LEO's coffee & doughnuts for him; you've just reinforced his belief that Hearsay=fact...not good.

Outdoorsman,

I think ya did just fine.

You kept your cool,and got your gun back and above all showed the cop your a LAC.

You also learned a few things,and its the kind of things you wont learn until you have been thru a LEO encounter.
Way back when I had my encounter they were convinced they had to run my numbers too.....even tho I had informed them several times I bought the gun new from XXXX dealer and was the ONLY owner.

Its a practice I dont agree with...for several reasons.
There is the assumed guilty to proven innocent...(stolen goods)
Not to mention I feel its an invasion of privacy...Mine especially.

If I have already proved I am a LAC...I dont see ANY reason to keep
looking for the tiniest excuse to charge me with.

LR Yote

qball54208, 1FASTC4

I am not taking anything for granted, that is what lawyers are for. But around here, law enforcement has been known to take certain liberties in the past, so I am not agreeing to anything, or saying anything, until they can show me otherwise or provide me with an attorney.

LR Yote 312 said:

Outdoorsman,

I think ya did just fine.

You kept your cool,and got your gun back and above all showed the cop your a LAC.

You also learned a few things,and its the kind of things you wont learn until you have been thru a LEO encounter.
Way back when I had my encounter they were convinced they had to run my numbers too.....even tho I had informed them several times I bought the gun new from XXXX dealer and was the ONLY owner.

Its a practice I dont agree with...for several reasons.
There is the assumed guilty to proven innocent...(stolen goods)
Not to mention I feel its an invasion of privacy...Mine especially.

If I have already proved I am a LAC...I dont see ANY reason to keep
looking for the tiniest excuse to charge me with.

LR Yote

Click to expand...

I agree, law enforcement is trained to look for flaws in what you say so that they have evidence against you. Thats all there is to it.

CalicoJack10 said:

qball54208, 1FASTC4

I am not taking anything for granted, that is what lawyers are for. But around here, law enforcement has been known to take certain liberties in the past, so I am not agreeing to anything, or saying anything, until they can show me otherwise or provide me with an attorney.

Click to expand...

No problem with me.
I was just explaining how they can search you(for weapons) during any Terry Stop, that a civil traffic stop is indeed a subset of a Terry Stop, and that this is all they need to pat you down for weapons....they don't need PC. Remember, PC and RAS, as I defined earlier, are two very different things.

The precedent is Terry Vs Ohio (1968)

Nutczak said:

The easiest and best way to make sure this does not happen is to exit your vehicle, lock the doors, and place the keys in your pocket.

Click to expand...

As our fellow member here points out based on personal experience, they will take your keys from your pocket after you are cuffed.

Lock keys in the vehicle as you exit.

So.


You have met my ex...?

I would give you a C.

You passed, but you surrendered several rights, otherwise you might have gotten an A+.

Outdoorsman1 said:

I just got off the phone with the records department for the sheriffs office. The lady I spoke to was very pleasant, polite, and extremley helpfull. I told her that I was involved with county sheriff contact on Snday morning and I wanted to stop in a pick up the "report" of the contact. She asked if it was a traffic accident and I told her know and that I was checked for a loaded wepon in my car. She was still polite and very willing to help. She asked if I had a "case" number and I told her no and that I was not arrested. She asked location, and time of day. After a brief seach she located the incident on her computer. She infomred me that an actual "report" had not been filled. I told her that I wanted a hard copy on what happened for my files. She then said that for 50 cents I could come in a pick up a "call for service" document. I asked and she also gave me the officers full name (which I will not reveal here) as well as reference number for the doscument. Without my asking she went out of her way to give mr the address and sprcific directions to their location and informed me that they are open 24 hrs a day. I will pick up the document (my terminology) after work today and report back as to its contents. I was on a vacation day yesterday and very busy with unexpected stuff, so today is the first day I literally had the time to get this done...

Outdoorsman1

Click to expand...

Ok.. I picked up the "Call For Service" paper, 1 page with just time, location, and "check for loaded weapon - all ok", who took the sheriff's call in to report all ok, and my lisence plate number, and thats about it.. my name does not appear anywhere. I know, I am not that stuipd to think they do not have my name, but I guess my point is the LEO did not even file an official police report, no case numeber, no arrest, etc. The lady even had a hard time finding it on her computer, kept asking me questions to help her find it like locaton, time of day, what day, etc...

Outdoorsman1

Outdoorsman1 said:

Ok.. I picked up the "Call For Service" paper, 1 page with just time, location, and "check for loaded weapon - all ok", who took the sheriff's call in to report all ok, and my lisence plate number, and thats about it.. my name does not appear anywhere. I know, I am not that stuipd to think they do not have my name, but I guess my point is the LEO did not even file an official police report, no case numeber, no arrest, etc. The lady even had a hard time finding it on her computer, kept asking me questions to help her find it like locaton, time of day, what day, etc...

Outdoorsman1

Click to expand...

So you're saying that he pulled you over on his own accord, and not under the color of law??? :uhoh: