• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

I Had My First Encounter With A LEO Today…Long, Very Long Story…

CalicoJack10

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2010
Messages
559
Location
Arbor Vitae
As an individual that has Training and Experience from both the Civilian and Military side of LE, the Sheriff did have ALL the PC he needed based upon the observation of the complainant in the black truck. Hence an individual was operating a motor vehicle, he was required to produce ID also since LEO had PC, he could have searched the vehicle.
All in all a completely LEGAL contact.
What surprises me is the LAX attitude of the LEO staying in his squad, even knowing that an individual had a weapon, even during the contact, I DO NOT care how well you present yourself to LEO, they're ALWAYS "fishing" for unfo, since most PPL just offer up incriminating info about their actions.
More to be learned here.
Like said B4, you never know how you'll react to your first LEO contact until it actually happens.
Good luck

I was informed by a LEO that without consent, they could not lawfully search a vehicle anymore, even with PC. Could you please show me where the law is that says they can. Also, without the commission of a crime, I would like to see where you are required to produce identification. I have refused to give up my ID several times with no ill effect.
 
Last edited:

oldschool

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2010
Messages
118
Location
delavan, Wisconsin, USA
I disagree with the probable cause aspect also.
Just because you were not seen unloading and incaseing dose not mean you didn't I think probable cause would be being seen specifically putting an an uncased and or loaded(that would take much better eyes than mine) gun.in the car.
 

oldschool

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2010
Messages
118
Location
delavan, Wisconsin, USA
I was informed by a LEO that without consent, they could not lawfully search a vehicle anymore, even with PC. Could you please show me where the law is that says they can. Also, without the commission of a crime, I would like to see where you are required to produce identification. I have refused to give up my ID several times with no ill effect.

The way I read the fourth amendment probable cause is the benchmark to get a search warrant .


But I'm no lawyer
 

protias

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 18, 2008
Messages
7,308
Location
SE, WI
I am curious as to why the officer went back to get the license plate info since this was not a traffic stop.
 

phred

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 14, 2010
Messages
768
Location
North Central Wisconsin, ,
In fact, I'll go one farther. I'll bet lunch the cop was lying about the "loaded" part. Any way to get a copy of the dispatch? How the heck would the guy in the black truck know if your gun was loaded or not? Yup, the cop added the "loaded" part, I'm betting on it. Any takers?


A cop would lie? Nooooooooooo It can't be!
 

Nutczak

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 2, 2008
Messages
2,165
Location
The Northwoods, lakeland area, Wisconsin, USA
1. Can I check your gun to see if it's loaded ....NO .. Probable cause ??? .... GET WARRANT
2. Can I see your ID ? ....NO Open carry is legal, I have violated no law
3. Where did you get your gun...NONE of your business
4. Can I run your Pistol to see if it's stolen ? ....NO .......GET WARRANT

Dude.. I am glad you thought this was such a great interaction with a LEO but you reacted as the typical sheep would. Stand up for your self.... If you claim to know the law as well as you do......then you know that you could have said no to everything & the cops know that too.

I am with Glock34 100% in this, you did nothing illegal, and a tipster does not create probable cause for an unwarranted search. Sure, he could make voluntary contact with you, but he did not have PC or RAS at any point. The only way he would have gotten either is by how you answered his questions (Fishing for something)
I would not be surprised one bit if you get a ticket in the mail from this guy. So be prepared for that! Hopefully it will not happen.
 

paul@paul-fisher.com

Regular Member
Joined
May 24, 2009
Messages
4,049
Location
Chandler, AZ
I had mentioned to Outdoorsman1 that he should either do an ORR or ask Nik or Hubert to assist him to do an ORR so that at the very least the police agency knows 'we' are watching.
 

1FASTC4

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2007
Messages
505
Location
Tomahawk
I was informed by a LEO that without consent, they could not lawfully search a vehicle anymore, even with PC. Could you please show me where the law is that says they can. Also, without the commission of a crime, I would like to see where you are required to produce identification. I have refused to give up my ID several times with no ill effect.

CJ, an LEO can search a vehicle if he has PC, even if he doesn't.. read below. First we must note the difference between PC and RAS. Reasonable Articulable Suspicion and PC are two different things.

RAS is defined as
An LEO must believe that:
(1) a crime has been committed
(2) a crime is being committed, or
(3) a crime is about to be committed; AND
(4) the person about to be stopped is the person who did one of the above.

In Wisconsin, this applies to non-criminal traffic laws as well. Detaining a person under these circumstances is often called a Terry Stop. This is important, in Wisconsin a LEO can search you for weapons during a civil traffic stop.

Here's why you should get out of your vehicle if you are stopped: During a Terry Stop, a LEO may search your person and your vehicle for weapons if you are in it(thereby you have access to weapons in vehicle)

Note that the evidentiary threshold for RAS is much lower than PC but the LEO can legally search your person and vehicle for weapons. Any criminal activity discovered in the search for weapons is admissible provided that the LEO can support his claim of RAS.

In Wisconsin, PC is defined as: Probable cause to arrest exists if the facts and circumstances known to the police officer and of which he has reasonably trustworthy information warrant a prudent man into believing an
offense has been committed and that the defendant probably committed it.”

Notice the subtle but important difference between PC and RAS.

From a legal standpoint, the very first thing the OP should have done is ask "Am I being detained?" This is sooo important for a couple of reasons. If the Officer says "No." you know that you are not obligated to provide him with any info whatsoever... walk away, do not provide ID,... walk away. If he says "Yes" give him your ID(he WILL ask for it) and shut up!
 
Last edited:

Pyro01

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2009
Messages
202
Location
Menomonie, Wisconsin, USA
CJ, an LEO can search a vehicle if he has PC, even if he doesn't.. read below. First we must note the difference between PC and RAS. Reasonable Articulable Suspicion and PC are two different things.

RAS is defined as
An LEO must believe that:
(1) a crime has been committed
(2) a crime is being committed, or
(3) a crime is about to be committed; AND
(4) the person about to be stopped is the person who did one of the above.

In Wisconsin, this applies to non-criminal traffic laws as well. Detaining a person under these circumstances is often called a Terry Stop. This is important, in Wisconsin a LEO can search you for weapons during a civil traffic stop.

Here's why you should get out of your vehicle if you are stopped: During a Terry Stop, a LEO may search your person and your vehicle for weapons if you are in it(thereby you have access to weapons in vehicle)

Note that the evidentiary threshold for RAS is much lower than PC but the LEO can legally search your person and vehicle for weapons. Any criminal activity discovered in the search for weapons is admissible provided that the LEO can support his claim of RAS.

In Wisconsin, PC is defined as: Probable cause to arrest exists if the facts and circumstances known to the police officer and of which he has reasonably trustworthy information warrant a prudent man into believing an
offense has been committed and that the defendant probably committed it.”

Notice the subtle but important difference between PC and RAS.

From a legal standpoint, the very first thing the OP should have done is ask "Am I being detained?" This is sooo important for a couple of reasons. If the Officer says "No." you know that you are not obligated to provide him with any info whatsoever... walk away, do not provide ID,... walk away. If he says "Yes" give him your ID(he WILL ask for it) and shut up!

I realize this may or may not happen, but when you ask if you're being detained, and he says "Yes", and you're doing nothing but open carrying, do you still have to legally provide ID? I'm thinking you don't, since OC is not a licensed activity. What would you do in that situation then when they start asking for ID and you're being detained?

Also, if you're open carrying down a street not in a school zone or on government property, a LEO stops you, and you ask if you're being detained and he says "No". At that point it's perfectly legal to just turn around and walk away? If he tries to stop you again after that, what then?

I'm not really asking for a personal opinion, I'm wondering what legal obligations there are for these two scenarios. Thanks.
 

paul@paul-fisher.com

Regular Member
Joined
May 24, 2009
Messages
4,049
Location
Chandler, AZ
I realize this may or may not happen, but when you ask if you're being detained, and he says "Yes", and you're doing nothing but open carrying, do you still have to legally provide ID? I'm thinking you don't, since OC is not a licensed activity. What would you do in that situation then when they start asking for ID and you're being detained?

Also, if you're open carrying down a street not in a school zone or on government property, a LEO stops you, and you ask if you're being detained and he says "No". At that point it's perfectly legal to just turn around and walk away? If he tries to stop you again after that, what then?

I'm not really asking for a personal opinion, I'm wondering what legal obligations there are for these two scenarios. Thanks.

Wisconsin is NOT a stop and identify state, so, no. However, him pulling you out of your car would make it a grey area since that is a licensed activity.
 

AaronS

Regular Member
Joined
May 2, 2009
Messages
1,497
Location
Milwaukee, Wisconsin, USA
See my post above for my thoughts on the "sheep" comment...

As far as "Can I check your gun to see if it's loaded ....NO .. Probable cause ??? .... GET WARRANT
He HAD probable cause based on the complaint I had a LOADED weapon in my car...


Outdoorsman1


Did you do what I would have? No, but who am I to tell you what you should do?
The DL I would think needed to be shown due to the fact that you were followed in your truck by a cop.

As far as any PC or not. I can only say that if a cop has PC to search, he/she will not "ask" you for permission. We all know that.

As far as showing your guns S/N. Well, without any RAS, I would have never agreed to that one as well. Again, if the officer had RAS, you would not have been "asked".

Once again, don't let me tell you what you should have done. I am not you. I just know I would not have let the cop walk all over my rights so easy.
 

1FASTC4

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2007
Messages
505
Location
Tomahawk
I realize this may or may not happen, but when you ask if you're being detained, and he says "Yes", and you're doing nothing but open carrying, do you still have to legally provide ID? I'm thinking you don't, since OC is not a licensed activity. What would you do in that situation then when they start asking for ID and you're being detained?

Also, if you're open carrying down a street not in a school zone or on government property, a LEO stops you, and you ask if you're being detained and he says "No". At that point it's perfectly legal to just turn around and walk away? If he tries to stop you again after that, what then?

I'm not really asking for a personal opinion, I'm wondering what legal obligations there are for these two scenarios. Thanks.

Any time you ask if you are being detained and the LEO says "No" you may walk away.

As for your question about if he says "Yes" and all you are doing is OC'ing.. that's takes us to our intrepid Madison 5. I don't know for sure off the top of my head but, going off memory, some initially and bravely refused to give ID but did so only after being threatened with arrest. The LEO could argue that you are being detained because your visible weapon is causing a disturbance... disorderly conduct. I won't advise you what to do under these circumstances but I can tell you I'd refuse to give ID, even unto arrest. I'm confident I'd prevail in the civil lawsuit I would immediately file.
 
Last edited:

paul@paul-fisher.com

Regular Member
Joined
May 24, 2009
Messages
4,049
Location
Chandler, AZ
As for your question about if he says "Yes" and all you are doing is OC'ing.. that's takes us to our intrepid Madison 5. I don't know for sure off the top of my head but, going off memory, some initially and bravely refused to give ID but did so only after being threatened with arrest. The LEO could argue that you are being detained because your visible weapon is causing a disturbance... disorderly conduct. I won't advise you what to do under these circumstances but I can tell you I'd refuse to give ID, even unto arrest. I'm confident I'd prevail in the civil lawsuit I would immediately file.


I believe all 5 of us asked if we were free to go. The sergeant made it clear we were all being detained. He also made it clear that if we did not produce ID we would be arrested. After he showed he was serious by arresting Springfield 1911 after he declined to show ID, I decided I had enough proof on tape and told the officer that I was providing my ID under duress.
 

1FASTC4

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2007
Messages
505
Location
Tomahawk
I believe all 5 of us asked if we were free to go. The sergeant made it clear we were all being detained. He also made it clear that if we did not produce ID we would be arrested. After he showed he was serious by arresting Springfield 1911 after he declined to show ID, I decided I had enough proof on tape and told the officer that I was providing my ID under duress.

Thanks for clearing that up, Paul. I'm not judging you in any way... it was a rotten situation to be in.
 
Top