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Target Encounter, Everett, Washington

Dreamer

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2009
Messages
5,360
Location
Grennsboro NC
Someone wake up on the wrong side of the bed? This thread isn't about concealed carry laws...he wasn't citing laws, etc, he was talking about the tactical side of things.

Every time I see someone using the term "CCW" (which is a CRIME) to describe lawful concealed carry, it makes my skin crawl, because I realize there are probably MILLIONS of people out there carrying who are so ignorant of the law, and have so mindlessly bought into the jargon, posing, and flat-out BS of the "gun press" that they don't know the difference between a crime and a lawful act.

We need to STOP using this term. I know that "everyone uses it". I know that it is used in the "gun press". I know that people in the gun community know what it means.

But the fact remains that it is the WRONG term for what you are trying to describe, and we need to STOP using it.

If someone doesn't even know (or can't remember) the proper title of the permit in their pocket, do you REALLY want them carrying a loaded firearm in public?


If I tell my buddy who is drunk not to get in the car because he might get a DWD - and he gets out of the car do I come across as uneducated and uninformed because I didn't cite the correct law? I just don't want him to drive, who cares if it is the correct wording? If his post was about the specific law I would agree with you, but it is about the tactical side of things, not laws.

First of all, if you are wasting your time arguing with drunk friends about driving (rather than just taking their keys, and giving them a ride yourself, or calling a cab for them) then you obviously have no idea how to communicate with people who have "diminished capacity".

And when it comes to "anti-gunners", we're talking about people with some SERIOUSLY diminished capacity...

When we--as pro-2A activists--use incorrect terms, or inaccurate language, the anti's WILL use it against us.

When we use terms that the anti's have already co-opted and poisoned with negative connotations, they WILL use it against us.

"CCW" is one of those terms.
Anyone in the pro-2A community--hunters, collectors, CCers, OCers, whatever--needs to STOP using this term. I don't know when it started (sometime in the 1980's when CC laws started to change in the US), and I don't know who the knucklehead was to first use "CCW" to describe lawful concealed carry, but it's something we need to STOP.

Using "CCW" to talk about lawful CC is like using the term "brandishing" to talk about lawful OC. It is incorrect. It is inaccurate. It is using the terminology for a CRIMINAL ACT to try and talk about a lawful activity. It needs to STOP. The widespread use of "CCW" to describe lawful CC makes us all look like fools, hoodlums, and legal-eagle wannabees...

If we want to get any traction with the "general public", we need to approach EVERYTHING we say as if it were a Press Release. Our language must be precise, persuasive, and calculated to evoke a pro-2A response in the listener.

Using terms that will trigger subconscious, pre-programmed NEGATIVE responses only serves to act against us.

Just because you folks don't care about this issue (even though you SHOULD) doesn't make it any less valid. Public opinion is shaped, molded, and directed by Public Relations. The careful, intentional, and subtle crafting of words and images is the most powerful tool we have in this "war for the minds" of the public. If you keep stabbing yourself in the foot every time you open your mouths (or set to your keyboards), we will get NOWHERE, and the general public will continue to see pro-2A people like us as "cowboys", vigilantes, radicals, and wingnuts...


There are arguments to be made for both sides on the OC CC debate. In some cases, OC'ers may actually prevent a crime from happening just because someone sees they have a gun, while in other cases, they may be targeted in a crime because they have a gun. There is no hard and fast rule for which is better tactically

If this is true, then why don't cops and soldiers CC?

The ONLY "tactical advantage" of CC is that it allows you to smugly carry a firearm without taking the personal initiative to actively engage the public in 2A education. The only "tactical advantage" to CC is that it lets you carry without having to be bothered with actually SUPPORTING 2A rights in person, out in public, face-to-face with real people. The only "tactical advantage" to CC is that it allows you to secretly hide your rights under your coat like it's something to be ashamed of, and it keeps rabid, frothing, anti-liberty anti-gunners and anti-2A police from getting up in your face.


Making this up...but: Lets say a 17 year old on hard times walks into a 7-11 with a knife in his pocket and is going to rob the place. You are over getting a slurpee - and he sees you have a gun on your side. This situation could go one of two ways - either the kid walks out of the store because you had gun, or he now targets you because you have a gun. If he walks out, then you just prevented an incident without having to draw, fire, etc. If he makes a move on you, hopefully you are aware enough of your surroundings and are able to deal with the situation. If you were CCing - then he would rob the place with a knife, and now you have to draw to deal with the situation.

CITE PLEASE.

Please show us a single incident in the last half-century in the US where an OCer was attacked by a criminal BECAUSE he was carrying.

We'll wait...
 
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donsk

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Every time I see someone using the term "CCW" (which is a CRIME) to describe lawful concealed carry, it makes my skin crawl, because I realize there are probably MILLIONS of people out there carrying who are so ignorant of the law, and have so mindlessly bought into the jargon, posing, and flat-out BS of the "gun press" that they don't know the difference between a crime and a lawful act.

We need to STOP using this term. I know that "everyone uses it". I know that it is used in the "gun press". I know that people in the gun community know what it means.

But the fact remains that it is the WRONG term for what you are trying to describe, and we need to STOP using it.

If someone doesn't even know (or can't remember) the proper title of the permit in their pocket, do you REALLY want them carrying a loaded firearm in public?




First of all, if you are wasting your time arguing with drunk friends about driving (rather than just taking their keys, and giving them a ride yourself, or calling a cab for them) then you obviously have no idea how to communicate with people who have "diminished capacity".

And when it comes to "anti-gunners", we're talking about people with some SERIOUSLY diminished capacity...

When we--as pro-2A activists--use incorrect terms, or inaccurate language, the anti's WILL use it against us.

When we use terms that the anti's have already co-opted and poisoned with negative connotations, they WILL use it against us.

"CCW" is one of those terms.
Anyone in the pro-2A community--hunters, collectors, CCers, OCers, whatever--needs to STOP using this term. I don't know when it started (sometime in the 1980's when CC laws started to change in the US), and I don't know who the knucklehead was to first use "CCW" to describe lawful concealed carry, but it's something we need to STOP.

Using "CCW" to talk about lawful CC is like using the term "brandishing" to talk about lawful OC. It is incorrect. It is inaccurate. It is using the terminology for a CRIMINAL ACT to try and talk about a lawful activity. It needs to STOP. The widespread use of "CCW" to describe lawful CC makes us all look like fools, hoodlums, and legal-eagle wannabees...

If we want to get any traction with the "general public", we need to approach EVERYTHING we say as if it were a Press Release. Our language must be precise, persuasive, and calculated to evoke a pro-2A response in the listener.

Using terms that will trigger subconscious, pre-programmed NEGATIVE responses only serves to act against us.

Just because you folks don't care about this issue (even though you SHOULD) doesn't make it any less valid. Public opinion is shaped, molded, and directed by Public Relations. The careful, intentional, and subtle crafting of words and images is the most powerful tool we have in this "war for the minds" of the public. If you keep stabbing yourself in the foot every time you open your mouths (or set to your keyboards), we will get NOWHERE, and the general public will continue to see pro-2A people like us as "cowboys", vigilantes, radicals, and wingnuts...




If this is true, then why don't cops and soldiers CC?

The ONLY "tactical advantage" of CC is that it allows you to smugly carry a firearm without taking the personal initiative to actively engage the public in 2A education. The only "tactical advantage" to CC is that it lets you carry without having to be bothered with actually SUPPORTING 2A rights in person, out in public, face-to-face with real people. The only "tactical advantage" to CC is that it allows you to secretly hide your rights under your coat like it's something to be ashamed of, and it keeps rabid, frothing, anti-liberty anti-gunners and anti-2A police from getting up in your face.




CITE PLEASE.

Please show us a single incident in the last half-century in the US where an OCer was attacked by a criminal BECAUSE he was carrying.

We'll wait...

1. On the topic of CCW - it is a descriptive term for many people. They are describing what they are doing, carrying a concealed weapon.

Just because you describe what you are doing in a different way than others doesn't make you uneducated and uninformed. If he said I went down to the county city building and got finger printed for my CCW permit, that does make you uneducated and uninformed. If it is your goal to get rid of the term CCW through education then go for it (I have no problem with it, I see where you are coming from), but to call the KansasScout uneducated and uninformed is nothing but flaming. Explain it and leave out the insults and threats.

To use the wrong terminology in our 2A battles is wrong, to fight and insult each other over such terminology is worse.

2. Tactically speaking...

How many LEO's carry a concealed weapon as their secondary weapon? Most of them do.

Furthermore, I don't need to go far to find a situation where someone was assaulted because they were open carrying. The OP in this thread was assaulted because he was open carrying and NO other reason.
 

Dreamer

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2009
Messages
5,360
Location
Grennsboro NC
If he said I went down to the county city building and got finger printed for my CCW permit, that does make you uneducated and uninformed. If it is your goal to get rid of the term CCW through education then go for it (I have no problem with it, I see where you are coming from), but to call the KansasScout uneducated and uninformed is nothing but flaming. Explain it and leave out the insults and threats.

Nobody in the US can get a "CCW permit". There is no such thing. No state gives people a permit to do something illegal. Not a single card issued by ANY state has the acronym "CCW" or the phrase "Carrying a Concealed Weapon" printed on it. The only place you will find that phrase or acronym printed on official documents is in the various Criminal Codes of the States.

You are getting a permit/license/endorsement that enables you to carry concealed LEGALLY.

The only place in state statute that "carrying a concealed weapon" is mentioned in ANY STATE is in the definition of a CRIME. That's my point.

And yes, I maintain that if people don't know the correct terminology for their particular permit, that is in fact uneducated and uninformed behavior, and if they DO know but refuse to use the correct term, then that is even worse--it is willful ignorance.

Words have meaning and power. By refusing to use the correct terminology, we give the "anti's" the legitimate grounds to say we are speaking incorrectly. And by using a term that has been loaded (by the antis) with negative connotations, we continue to feed their propaganda to the public that anyone carrying a gun is a potentially deranged, ignorant vigilante, who only wants an excuse to "bust a cap in someone".

If we're going to carry, we have MANY responsibilities. First is to guarantee that we are safe with our firearms, and can use them properly and legally. Second, is to be sure that we can intelligently discuss and defend our RIGHTS. Third, is to do everything we can to NOT feed into the propaganda and FUD spewed by the "antis" by doing things that will mislead, confuse, or cloud the issue.

And using the term "CCW" does NOTHING positive for our cause.

Please stop using it. It's not difficult to find the correct term for your state's permit. If you have a permit, just look at the card--it's printed RIGHT THERE...

If you don't have a permit, you can look up pictures of almost EVERY permit in the US at this website:

http://www.usacarry.com/concealed_carry_permit_information.html

This isn't rocket science, folks.

But the ultimate outcome of the stubborn refusal to use accurate language will have DIRE consequences with regards to public perception of our issues, and of 2A rights in general.

This isn't about "what's popular" or "common knowledge" or your tender sensibilities. This is about the power of words, the manipulation of public sentiment, and the subtle art of crafting perception. IF you aren't up to that task, then I'd suggest you just CC all the time, and find another "hobby" to put your time into, because if you are not up to the task of actively engaging the public in a thoughtful, educated, informed, and tactful manner, you are NOT doing the 2A or OC any favors by OCing...

Until the people in the 2A movement realize and acknowledge that Public Relations is the most powerful weapon in the war for public opinion, and stop obsessing on dry statistics, arcane legal jargon, and mind-numbing armchair tactical fantasy, the public will be against us, and we will continue to fight an uphill battle to regain our Rights.

WAKE UP, people. This isn't a game. It's a war for the hearts and minds of a nation. And using the wrong words in this battle is every bit as irresponsible and foolhardy as walking into a full-out firefight wearing a t-shirt, shorts, and carrying a squirt gun...

Words have power. Until we acknowledge that, we are just ******* in the wind. And frankly, I'm getting REALLY tired of other "2A activists" getting my shoes wet...


Furthermore, I don't need to go far to find a situation where someone was assaulted because they were open carrying. The OP in this thread was assaulted because he was open carrying and NO other reason.

No police report. No injury. No theft. No photos.

Therefore no "attack".

This example was nothing more than "fighting words", and that doesn't count as a "criminal targeting an OCer because he was OCing". It only counts as a loudmouthed "anti" attempting to cause a scene.

Try again...
 
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Griz

Regular Member
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Messages
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We have two options in Missouri. Get the endorsement on our drivers license or obtain a seperate I.D.

We apply for a concealed carry endorsement. The Revised Missouri Statutes http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/chapters/chap571.htm refers to it as such. Nowhere do the statues refer to a CCW.

However, upon looking at my endorsement (which I carry as a seprate identification card), it states "CCW until MM-DD-YYYY.

I don't know what the endorsement on a DL looks like.
 

donsk

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Nobody in the US can get a "CCW permit". There is no such thing. No state gives people a permit to do something illegal. Not a single card issued by ANY state has the acronym "CCW" or the phrase "Carrying a Concealed Weapon" printed on it. The only place you will find that phrase or acronym printed on official documents is in the various Criminal Codes of the States.

You are getting a permit/license/endorsement that enables you to carry concealed LEGALLY.

The only place in state statute that "carrying a concealed weapon" is mentioned in ANY STATE is in the definition of a CRIME. That's my point.

And yes, I maintain that if people don't know the correct terminology for their particular permit, that is in fact uneducated and uninformed behavior, and if they DO know but refuse to use the correct term, then that is even worse--it is willful ignorance.

Words have meaning and power. By refusing to use the correct terminology, we give the "anti's" the legitimate grounds to say we are speaking incorrectly. And by using a term that has been loaded (by the antis) with negative connotations, we continue to feed their propaganda to the public that anyone carrying a gun is a potentially deranged, ignorant vigilante, who only wants an excuse to "bust a cap in someone".

If we're going to carry, we have MANY responsibilities. First is to guarantee that we are safe with our firearms, and can use them properly and legally. Second, is to be sure that we can intelligently discuss and defend our RIGHTS. Third, is to do everything we can to NOT feed into the propaganda and FUD spewed by the "antis" by doing things that will mislead, confuse, or cloud the issue.

And using the term "CCW" does NOTHING positive for our cause.

Please stop using it. It's not difficult to find the correct term for your state's permit. If you have a permit, just look at the card--it's printed RIGHT THERE...

If you don't have a permit, you can look up pictures of almost EVERY permit in the US at this website:

http://www.usacarry.com/concealed_carry_permit_information.html

This isn't rocket science, folks.

But the ultimate outcome of the stubborn refusal to use accurate language will have DIRE consequences with regards to public perception of our issues, and of 2A rights in general.

This isn't about "what's popular" or "common knowledge" or your tender sensibilities. This is about the power of words, the manipulation of public sentiment, and the subtle art of crafting perception. IF you aren't up to that task, then I'd suggest you just CC all the time, and find another "hobby" to put your time into, because if you are not up to the task of actively engaging the public in a thoughtful, educated, informed, and tactful manner, you are NOT doing the 2A or OC any favors by OCing...

Until the people in the 2A movement realize and acknowledge that Public Relations is the most powerful weapon in the war for public opinion, and stop obsessing on dry statistics, arcane legal jargon, and mind-numbing armchair tactical fantasy, the public will be against us, and we will continue to fight an uphill battle to regain our Rights.

WAKE UP, people. This isn't a game. It's a war for the hearts and minds of a nation. And using the wrong words in this battle is every bit as irresponsible and foolhardy as walking into a full-out firefight wearing a t-shirt, shorts, and carrying a squirt gun...

Words have power. Until we acknowledge that, we are just ******* in the wind. And frankly, I'm getting REALLY tired of other "2A activists" getting my shoes wet...




No police report. No injury. No theft. No photos.

Therefore no "attack".

This example was nothing more than "fighting words", and that doesn't count as a "criminal targeting an OCer because he was OCing". It only counts as a loudmouthed "anti" attempting to cause a scene.

Try again...

Lets read the original post:

I am going to point out that if you were carrying concealed, this would not have happened. This is the advantage of CCW. And a clear disadvantage to open carry. Tactically, CCW is always better.

Lets take it and spell out the abbreviations he used:

This is the advantage of carrying a concealed weapon.
Tactically, carrying a concealed weapon is always better.

He was not talking about a permit. He was talking about a description to his action. He was not talking about the specific name of his permit. Even if he was, it is an innocent mistake/misconception.

Think of your days back in school. If the teacher told you that you were stupid for using the wrong form of their/there,that you make her look bad and she would give you a detention if you messed up again - would that help the situation? Whereas, if the teacher had you stay in for recess one day and explained in detail which form was correct and why - and told you that if you had any questions, to please ask them now - would that type of method be better? You only turn people off of this community by being hostile - we need as many people as we can get in this community and it is our job to educate them. If people say, screw this forum, I don't want to be part of it if that is how they act, then we lost our chance to slowly educate them.

Regardless, I don't really care to continue to argue about it - its pointless - you don't seem to care about education, but rather being hostile and disrespectful towards fellow OC'ers.


Secondly, we have the story as well as verification from a well respected forum member that the story is true. Attempting to steal/grab another persons firearm by physical force is a crime. He was targeted because he had a firearm in the open.

Again, I am not saying that that CC or OC is better, merely acknowledging that there are positives and negatives of both. With situational awareness, OC should prevent more crimes than it creates, without situational awareness, it may make things worse.

A case of an OCer being targeted:
http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/95999354.html
 

Dreamer

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2009
Messages
5,360
Location
Grennsboro NC
He was not talking about a permit. He was talking about a description to his action. He was not talking about the specific name of his permit. Even if he was, it is an innocent mistake/misconception.

And again, I reiterate, the ONLY time that "CCW" or "carrying a concealed weapon" are used in State statutes is to describe a crime, NOT to describe a lawful mode of carry. This use of "CCW" is anincorrect usage carried over from the pre-Shall-Issue days. It was started by "gun press writers" (who, BTW, were mostly LEOs like Mass Ayoob) who were using it to speak to a very small, insular community that the rest of the world didn't pay much attention to. For some reason, nobody put a stop to this a LONG time ago (perhaps it's because many of the mainstream gun magazines are owned by the same corporations who are big funders of the anti-gun movement. FUD makes profit...)

That has changed RADICALLY. The "anti's" watch our web fora. They read our magazines. They try to use our words against us at EVERY available turn.

And yet the "pro 2A community", like the proverbial ostrich, stands here with our head in the sand, unwilling to change our tactics, our language, or our PR models. We stubbornly refuse engage the public in a broad-based way. We staunchly cling to our historical demographic of middle class, white males, and tolerate racism, classism, sexism, and homophobia, even though the LARGEST growth markets for personal defense firearms are women and gay men. We cling to our old jargonistic terminology--MUCH of which is inaccurate at best (and flat out INCORRECT at worst) because "everyone says it that way", even though the "anti's" use these incorrect terms to increase FUD against us in the minds of the general public.

It's time to pull our heads out of the sand, folks.

It's time to take control of the rhetoric in this "debate". It's time to start using language in a THOUGHTFUL, persuasive, and yes, even manipulative way--because this is not merely an "argument about right and wrong". Most of the general public doesn't give a rat's patootie about "right and wrong". They care about "how does this effect ME". And if the "anti's" can trot out a few weeping mothers of dead crack dealers and say "see what guns do", most people aren't going to take the time to really investigate the REALITY of the situation.

When we start tossing out (in defense of RKBA) all sorts of statistics, and hypothetical situations, and reading passages from the Constitution and the Federalist Papers, do you REALLY think that gets traction with 90% of the population? Or do the videos of weeping and wailing mothers and children of the "victims" of "gun violence" (most of whom were actually some of the main instigators of violence themselves) hit home for more people?

The "debate" about RKBA is no longer a polite session of discourse. The "other side"--the anti-Liberty, fascist, control freak sociopath "antis"--made this a WAR from the very beginning. It is a war for the minds of America. They are throwing EVERYTHING they have at this war--TV interviews, propaganda feeds to the "news", supplying "experts" to the media, articles full of FUD and lies in the print media, radio appearances--and they have defined the battlefield from day one. They understand that this is a war for the mind, and will never stop spewing their filthy lies until they reach their goal of the complete disarmament of EVERY person who is not an LEO or active-duty military.

We need to WAKE UP to the fact that activism starts with the word "active". IF people can't be bothered to use the right words (and NOT use the wrong words)--words that carry with them decades of programming, subconscious resonance, and have been contextualized to automatically generate a negative visceral response in the public--then may I suggest such people get a different hobby.


Think of your days back in school. If the teacher told you that you were stupid for using the wrong form of their/there,that you make her look bad and she would give you a detention if you messed up again - would that help the situation? Whereas, if the teacher had you stay in for recess one day and explained in detail which form was correct and why - and told you that if you had any questions, to please ask them now - would that type of method be better?

So let me get this straight...

I HAVE been explaining for nearly 2 years how the use of "CCW" is counterproductive to our cause, and why that is. I've been explaining for nearly 2 years on this forum and others, that the RKBA movement need a RADICAL update to their PR model (if they actually even HAVE one at all!). I've been explaining that the "antis" have been working with state-of-the-art PR since the inception of the Brady Campaign--massive media penetration, VERY skillfully crafted word usage, a media presense that treads incredibly close to outright psychological warfare models used by our own military--and yet the 2A and RKBA communities seem content to respond to these tactics with 18th century PR model--Truth, Liberty Statistics and History.

And yet you are accusing me of doing the EXACT opposite of what I've been doing for 2 years--not because my facts are wrong but because you don't like my delivery style?

If a teacher had a student that the glass-covered hole in the classroom wall a "bleggle" in stead of a window, and did it starting in 1st grade, and CONTINUED to do it through his High School graduation--despite being corrected over and over again, and being shown dictionary entries, and engineering texts, and architectural books--don't you think his teachers might get a little short after a while?

I'm not saying we need to become the same sort of lying, duplicitous, devious, manipulative, control freak sociopaths that the "anti's" are.

But I AM saying that we are (and have been for over 2 decades) fighting a 21st Century war against a 21st century opponent using 18th century tactics. It's no wonder the 2A and RKBA movement is ALWAYS playing catch-up.

And a REALLY good place to start is for us to STOP using terms like CCW, because it's inaccurate, it is HEAVILY charged with negative feelings for many people, and it has been used (with great skill and craftiness) in the "entertainment" media for nearly 3 decades--in cop shows, movies, and such--for one reason and one reason only--to describe a CRIMINAL ACT. The public has had it drilled into their heads by the media and their entertainment that "CCW" and "Carrying a Concealed Weapon" is bad, illegal, and dangerous.

We need to STOP using that term.

Just call the act of lawful concealed carry "CC".

We don't call what we on THIS forum do OCW, do we? No. And CCers need to STOP calling their lawful, legal mode of carry by a term that is ONLY used in the legal code to define a crime. It makes no sense to use that term for a myriad of reasons.

Wake up people. This isn't a polite little game of high school debate team. This is a WAR for the MINDS of the public, and we're already over 2 decades behind in controlling the battle, and three centuries behind in our tactics, technology and modes of operation.


Regardless, I don't really care to continue to argue about it - its pointless - you don't seem to care about education, but rather being hostile and disrespectful towards fellow OC'ers.

Oh, but you apparently DO, because you've written a quarter-page screed against everything I've said--attempting to turn my protestations into some sort of misguided personal attack. You've attempted to use a rather subtle logical fallacy to discredit my stance, while not spending a single second successfully refuting any of the claims I make.

Whose side are you guys on anyway?

Why are you so dead-set against changing your tactics, reforming your speech, and bringing your PR model out of the 18th century? Are you TRYING to lose against the "anti's"? I mean, really, which side are you guys REALLY on?



The argument made by CCers against OC isn't that OCers will be robbed at gunpoint because they are OCing. The arguments made by CCers is that OCers will be "the first ones shot because they are OCing", or that we will b the victims of "gun grabs". This incident was NEITHER of those scenarios.

The "victim" had no training in retention, self defense technique, or even basic personal safety. He went out and bought a gun to "show the bad guys who was boss", and carried a gun--without training or education in it's lawful and effective use--as a knee-jerk reaction to the takeover of his neighborhood by thugs and punks.

He was held up--at gunpoint on a public street--and the thug stole his gun (and other things). He made no attempt to defend himself. He made no attempt to avoid the confrontation in the first place. He actually HELPED the BG get his gun out of the holster, and handed it over to the thug.

No, this is NOT an incident that any CCer can use to legitimately support an anti OC stance. It is simply a "goof with a gun" incident.
 
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zack991

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2009
Messages
1,535
Location
Ohio, USA
Dreamer you really, REALLY need to try the decaf man....

128862084760875164.jpg
 

acmariner99

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2010
Messages
655
Location
Renton, Wa
Dreamer: in all honesty, what does poor definitions have to do with what happened? Someone pointed out that if I had been carrying concealed this would not have happened. While true, I did not have a Concealed Pistol License issued by Washington State, I was in an unsafe city, and i didn't like leaving my gun lying around. So -- to protect myself at the time I was stuck carrying openly. (I OC all the time in Arizona BUT using some discretion in an area that has rarely seen a properly carried firearm by a citizen is going to provoke questions and responses -- I was asked questions about why I carry nearly every day until I got my CPL). Now that I have a valid CPL, I have the option to conceal if I choose to do so. I agree 100% that we have major responsibilities when carrying a weapon -- and those responsibilities were amplified in what happened during the incident described in this thread. I had to know what I was doing in how to respond to this guy. And the feedback I have been getting has been constructive or otherwise positive. If people are off on their terms or definitions, PM them instead?
 

since9

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
Messages
6,964
Location
Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
Tactically, CCW is always better.

Tacticlly, the best approach is whatever prevents an encounter in the first place. Tactically, the second best approach is what causes someone to disengage the encounter. Tactically, the third best approach is whatever's fastest with respect to responding.

For an actual BG, OC is tactically more sound than CC. For the nutcase encountered by the OP, the reverse is true, but not by much. The question is: Who are you most concerned about? Actual BG's who're out to rob you, perhaps cause you harm? Or nutcases whose most disturbing moment is that that they're simply disturbed?

Seriously, the "tactically, CCW is always better" is an LEO sponsored mantra, designed by LEOs to keep MWAG calls to a minimum, and strongly endorsed by gun column writers, most prolifically by Ayoob. It was also strongly recommended by 2A advocates who were afraid of rocking the boat. They believed if they pushed too hard for 2A rights, they'd loose all 2A rights. Now we know the reverse is true, that they didn't push hard enough, resorting to a partial erosion of our rights out of in irrational fear that all could be taken, while simultaneously using an incorrect approach to secure what little 2A rights were left by that time.

Congress showed us the correct approach all the way back in February of 1982, when they published their report on the Second Amendment. It was only after we began hitting the courts with these Constitutionally-based arguements that we began to restore our 2A rights.

The job isn't over, folks - Keep hitting the courts and your state legislatures hard!

BTW, I agree with Dreamer and Mike: Using a term like CCW, when it appears on so many rap sheets and Hollywood scripts as a bad thing, doesn't help our cause. The Second Amendment secures our right to keep (own) and bear (carry) arms. If we wanted to get technical about it, we should change it to OB and CB (open bear and concealed bear), but that would be even more confusing, so let's stick with Open Carry and Concealed Carry and leave the "w" off. Most states don't use it to describe lawful carry, anyway. They use "permit" or "license." Same goes for "carry," as here in Colorado they use "CHP" (concealed handgun permit). I'd like to see that on a rap sheet: "He was convicted of concealed handgun permit..." Nope, won't happen.

So let's purge CCW from our vocabulary. I'd make a pitch for what I normally write out, LCPHF (lawful carry of a properly holstered firearm), but that's confusing, too. Perhaps just LC (Lawful Carry) and either IC (Illegal Carry) or UC (Unlawful Carry).

Here's an idea: Instead of creating acronym soup, here, let's just stick with OC and CC, with the understanding that we're all law-abiding citizens (or striving to be), which is why we're here in the first place, thus, OC and CC in the contexts we use them will default to a lawful activity, unless otherwise stated.
 
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sharkey

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1) Wow, raving semantics, jeez.
2) Hate to say say it, but I probably would have popped a cap in the guy. I mean, I would have discharged my firearm causing a projectile to enter his flesh and his life to cease.

Did you have one in the chamber?
 

acmariner99

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Feb 12, 2010
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Renton, Wa
I have no doubt that if I had drawn and pulled the trigger, I would not be here right now. He was ignorant, stupid, and had no clue how to act around a civilian carrying a firearm. The safest thing to do was to secure the weapon and put myself in a position to draw and fire if he failed to heed my warnings. He was trying to see how far I would go. Was he dangerous? Absolutely. Was he a threat to my life? Possibly. Did the situation justify further response on my part (charging him with multiple felonies) yes. Would a reasonable person think that my life was in danger and therefore justifiable to take someone's life? Probably not -- especially in Seattle.

And I did not carry with a round in the chamber. At the time I did not have a WA CPL so I had to remove the magazine every time I got in the car. I am not fond of the idea of handling and racking the weapon in a parking lot. I am trained enough to where I can draw, rack, and present in the same motion.
 

sharkey

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I'm glad the decision you made had the outcome it did. I don't think I would have made the same decision in the heat of the moment. If you've reached for my weapon I now consider you a deadly threat to my person and will react accordingly. Having never been in that situation (and I hope I never am) I may be wrong on how I would react.

I hope you're back here in AZ.

A.R.S. 13-404
A. Except as provided in subsection B of this section, a person is justified in threatening or using physical force against another when and to the extent a reasonable person would believe that physical force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful physical force.

A.R.S. 13-405
B. A person has no duty to retreat before threatening or using deadly physical force pursuant to this section if the person is in a place where the person may legally be and is not engaged in an unlawful act.

BTW, the vernacular about "capping" someone was only in response to the crazy semantics. That's not how I speak.
 

acmariner99

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Messages
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Renton, Wa
For the time being I am back in Arizona. I was working in Everett, WA over the summer and I got a full time job in the area so I will be moving back there full time in a couple of months. (Unless by some chance I get a better offer from an engineering firm here in the southwest - I would prefer to stay in Arizona, but I gotta do what I gotta do).

Had the incident occurred in AZ, I would have been justified in threatening force (as I understand the law). Washington is much trickier. They have a very direct brandishing law.

RCW 9.41.270:

(1) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.

Exception:

(c) Any person acting for the purpose of protecting himself or herself against the use of presently threatened unlawful force by another, or for the purpose of protecting another against the use of such unlawful force by a third person;

I realized that the scumbag was deliberately trying to get me to draw - so he could sue me for unlawful use of force. "What would you do if I did this" (as he reaches for and tries to grab the hilt). He didn't threaten to use force against me and I don't believe he had intent to inflict harm. Though I did grab hold of my weapon to secure it and to be ready to draw, per the law I quoted above. Had he continued to advance as i withdrew, I probably would have drawn.
 
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