To Open Carry . . .A First Aid Kit?

[LEO 229]

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Packing a gun or a first aid kit is a personal choice.

Giving aid to those that are injured in any manner is also a personal choice. As a human... I would hope you would still give aid as best as you can without causing any potential injury to yourself.

With the blood borne viruses out there now.... I know I am NOT going to go there. Hep C, AIDS, and other stuff will hold me back.

 

[Mjolnir]

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I've got a fully stocked jump kit in the truck & a good 1st aid kit in the car.

Just to clear things up a tad EMT-B's, I's and P's are not "licensed" but they are certified and operate under thier medical directors licence.

 

[medicff0879]

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nickerj1 wrote:

If you're certified in all this stuff, and then shoot someone in self defense. Are you then obligated to try and save them?


I wonder how that would look in court. Well, he shot the guy in self defense, and then promptly saved his life with his medical expertise.

LMAO, I often wondered how that dilema would pan out if I ever found myself in need to use deadly force. Being a paramedic, a firefighter, a HAM radio operator, and having training in advanced Cardiac Life support, Basic Trauma Life Support as well as Pediatric Advanced Life Support I decided that if I shot some scumbag that was attempting to harm me, or my family, I would promptly call 911 and await proper medical care to arrive. I would not risk the liability of some scumbag to survive because of my actions just to turn around and sue because I was practicing medicine without a license while off duty. Besides, I can know everything in the world, but without an ambulance my hands are empty of the tools to do my job.

As someone stated above, I am simply required to render aid by summoning authorities and medical attention (call 911), I am not inclined to provide medical attention of any form.

 

[medicff0879]

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Mjolnir wrote:

I've got a fully stocked jump kit in the truck & a good 1st aid kit in the car.

Just to clear things up a tad EMT-B's, I's and P's are not "licensed" but they are certified and operate under thier medical directors licence.

Just depends on the state, Texas added a Licensure to the food chain in 2000. In order to obtain Licensed Paramedic status one has to take the courses for an Associates Degree. I applied for my licensure when I graduated last year, but you are right in the respects of working under a Physicians license to practice medicine. Paramedics can only perform the skills that their medical director will allow under his license.

I have a nice little kit that is fully stocked with a bunch of little goodies in the event there is a disaster in the Metroplex and my girlfriend and I have to hit the road to the country.

 

[Doug Huffman]

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With the blood borne viruses out there now.... I know I am NOT going to go there. Hep C, AIDS, and other stuff will hold me back.

The conspiracy of ignorance masquerades as common sense.

Re HIV; the three probable routes of transmission are

Sexual, transmission can occur when infected sexual secretions come into contact with the genital, oral, or rectal mucous membranes of another (hopefully not at play here). Probability ~0.5 in the most likely 'route'.

Blood, most rare among care givers. Probability ~10^-4

Mother to Child transmission (hardly at play here). Probability ~ 4x10^-4

Re Hep-C, I don't have probabilities, needle-sticks are the most common iatrogenic route but also spatter to eyes or open wounds. D'ya have tattoos?

So LEO 'run to gun shots' presumably aimed but shy from ignorance of viral health risks. Tsk tsk Look up the word 'anile'. Un-aimed gun shots have ~10^-6 probability at a mile but old blue-hairs wear blaze-orange.

The risks of fearsome nuclear power are "comparable to those tolerated in daily life."

Either we are equal or we are not. Good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth. NRA/GOP KMA$$

 

[medicff0879]

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Doug Huffman wrote:

With the blood borne viruses out there now.... I know I am NOT going to go there. Hep C, AIDS, and other stuff will hold me back.

The conspiracy of ignorance masquerades as common sense.

Re HIV; the three probable routes of transmission are

Sexual, transmission can occur when infected sexual secretions come into contact with the genital, oral, or rectal mucous membranes of another (hopefully not at play here). Probability ~0.5 in the most likely 'route'.

Blood, most rare among care givers. Probability ~10^-4

Mother to Child transmission (hardly at play here). Probability ~ 4x10^-4

Re Hep-C, I don't have probabilities, needle-sticks are the most common iatrogenic route but also spatter to eyes or open wounds. D'ya have tattoos?

So LEO 'run to gun shots' presumably aimed but shy from ignorance of viral health risks. Tsk tsk Look up the word 'anile'. Un-aimed gun shots have ~10^-6 probability at a mile but old blue-hairs wear blaze-orange.

The risks of fearsome nuclear power are "comparable to those tolerated in daily life."

Either we are equal or we are not. Good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth. NRA/GOP KMA$$

I am more worried about Hep A,B,C, MRSA or General Staph than I am HIV/AIDS. I have had two dirty needle sticks in 8 years and again, I was more worried about MRSA/Staph and Hepatitisthan I ever was HIV/AIDS. On that note, I would NEVER perform mouth to mouth CPR on anyone that I dont have an intimate/family relationship with i.e Girlfriend, Dad, Mom, Sister, Grandparents, Brother/n law. The rest of society can benefit from exceptional chest compressions and possibly mouth/mask respirations if I am in my car and have my barrier. Other than that, I try to have my cell phone 99.9% of the time when carrying in order to provide prompt contact of Emergency Services, I highly doubt I would EVER render aid to someone I intended to use deadly force against. If your worried about being sued for shooting some scumbag, try adding the worry of being sued because you are accused ofproviding medical care that could have aided in a faster death (according to the family of the scumbag!!)

 

[Bravo_Sierra]

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The possibility of having to preform mouth-to-mouth on a dirty person is why I carry a CPR micro shield on my key chain.

 

[LEO 229]

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Doug Huffman wrote:

With the blood borne viruses out there now.... I know I am NOT going to go there. Hep C, AIDS, and other stuff will hold me back.

The conspiracy of ignorance masquerades as common sense.

Re HIV; the three probable routes of transmission are

Sexual, transmission can occur when infected sexual secretions come into contact with the genital, oral, or rectal mucous membranes of another (hopefully not at play here). Probability ~0.5 in the most likely 'route'.

Blood, most rare among care givers. Probability ~10^-4

Mother to Child transmission (hardly at play here). Probability ~ 4x10^-4

Re Hep-C, I don't have probabilities, needle-sticks are the most common iatrogenic route but also spatter to eyes or open wounds. D'ya have tattoos?

So LEO 'run to gun shots' presumably aimed but shy from ignorance of viral health risks. Tsk tsk Look up the word 'anile'. Un-aimed gun shots have ~10^-6 probability at a mile but old blue-hairs wear blaze-orange.

The risks of fearsome nuclear power are "comparable to those tolerated in daily life."

Either we are equal or we are not. Good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth. NRA/GOP KMA$$

So are you submitting that any blood exposure I may experience while rendering aid will NOT result in any chance of contracting an infectious disease?



Without protective equipment the rescuer could be exposed to infectious diseases by coming into contact with a victim's bodily fluids.

Read more in the following post.



Furthermore... why did you post this at the begining?

"The conspiracy of ignorance masquerades as common sense."

Did it have significant meaning to what you were about to say in regards to the transmission of diseases? Or is what you said meaningless and you were warning us ahead of time?

Just checking because you seem to like to post your little catch phrases all the time. It gets old and confusing after a while.

 

[LEO 229]

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medicff0879 wrote:

Doug Huffman wrote:

With the blood borne viruses out there now.... I know I am NOT going to go there. Hep C, AIDS, and other stuff will hold me back.

The conspiracy of ignorance masquerades as common sense.

Re HIV; the three probable routes of transmission are

Sexual, transmission can occur when infected sexual secretions come into contact with the genital, oral, or rectal mucous membranes of another (hopefully not at play here). Probability ~0.5 in the most likely 'route'.

Blood, most rare among care givers. Probability ~10^-4

Mother to Child transmission (hardly at play here). Probability ~ 4x10^-4

Re Hep-C, I don't have probabilities, needle-sticks are the most common iatrogenic route but also spatter to eyes or open wounds. D'ya have tattoos?

So LEO 'run to gun shots' presumably aimed but shy from ignorance of viral health risks. Tsk tsk Look up the word 'anile'. Un-aimed gun shots have ~10^-6 probability at a mile but old blue-hairs wear blaze-orange.

The risks of fearsome nuclear power are "comparable to those tolerated in daily life."

Either we are equal or we are not. Good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth. NRA/GOP KMA$$

I am more worried about Hep A,B,C, MRSA or General Staph than I am HIV/AIDS. I have had two dirty needle sticks in 8 years and again, I was more worried about MRSA/Staph and Hepatitisthan I ever was HIV/AIDS. On that note, I would NEVER perform mouth to mouth CPR on anyone that I dont have an intimate/family relationship with i.e Girlfriend, Dad, Mom, Sister, Grandparents, Brother/n law. The rest of society can benefit from exceptional chest compressions and possibly mouth/mask respirations if I am in my car and have my barrier. Other than that, I try to have my cell phone 99.9% of the time when carrying in order to provide prompt contact of Emergency Services, I highly doubt I would EVER render aid to someone I intended to use deadly force against. If your worried about being sued for shooting some scumbag, try adding the worry of being sued because you are accused ofproviding medical care that could have aided in a faster death (according to the family of the scumbag!!)

I guess Doug is OK with getting the blood and mouth secretions all over his own body while rendering aid.

With all that is known that can be passed to other people.... I am not going to dive right in there for a stranger. You save the life of someone who is already dying and then you contract what they have.

Friends and family... OK. That may be worth the risk but strangers.. forget it. I will need to have gloves for direct pressure and a pocket mask for CPR before I go hands on.

The nice thing is that is our choice to render aid. I also have the choice to run toward gun fire too.


{Insert witty catch phrase here}

 

[Doug Huffman]

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Please, moderator LW, he's begging for it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_class http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strict_scrutiny

 

[imperialism2024]

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RE: Rendering first aid to others

I'm surprised no one has brought up liability. Back when I took CPR and first aid classes, the general message given was to only perform the most basic procedures while providing aid to another person. If a trial lawyer starts whispering into that person's ear, the legal envirionment may permit you to be the victim of a lawsuit for performing more-than-basic first aid that may or may not further injure the person. Do you really want to apply a tourniquet to someone's leg to prevent them from bleeding to death from a gunshot wound, only to have them sue you because they lost that leg as a result?

Granted, laws vary from state to state, but I'm surprised that a discussion of liability hasn't entered into it.

ETA: I can't spell.

 

[LEO 229]

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Actually.. There are laws that protect you for trying to help.

http://pa.essortment.com/goodsamaritanl_redg.htm

Tortfeasor: one who commits wrong; a wrongdoer.

It is for this fear, that the good samaritan laws were enacted. The good samaritan doctrine as it is legally known, is a legal principle that prevents a rescuer who has voluntarily helped a victim in distress from being successfully sued for 'wrongdoing.' Its purpose is to keep people from being so reluctant to help a stranger in need for fear of legal repercussions if they made some mistake in treatment. Therefore, this doctrine was primarily developed for first aid encounters and every state does have its own adaptation of it. However, the crucial points are about the same.

Good Samaritan doctrine - Black's Law 7th edition: 'A statute that exempts from liability a person (such as an off-duty physician) who voluntraily renders aid to another in imminent danger but negligently causes injury while rendering the aid. Some form of good-samaritan legislation has been enacted in all 50 states and the District of Columbia.'

This is how the law reads verbatim. It is very straightforward as far as laws go, but there are some gray areas to it. The first questionable area is, 'unless the rescue attempt is unreasonable.' What this is referring to is when we provide care that is, by all accounts, unnecessary. Such as, removing an injured victim from a car that is not in imminent danger and the movement aggravates the injuries. Another example could be treating non-life-threatening injuries where the condition was worsened in the attempt, splinting a broken bone. Splinting requires moving the victim so we run the risk of causing an open fracture, etc.

The other area in question, 'the rescuer acts unreasonably in performing the attempted rescue.' First of all, a person is not obligated by law to do first aid in most states, not unless it's part of a job description obviously. Some states will consider it an act of negligence though, if we don't at least call for help. Beyond this, assisting is optional and voluntary, partly due to preserving the rescuer's own health in the process. Without protective equipment the rescuer could be exposed to infectious diseases by coming into contact with a victim's bodily fluids. In short, we are not obligated to render first aid in fear of cross-contamination yet, if we begin to help, we must continue to do so until one of three things happen: the victim recovers, another trained person replaces you or we are too physically exhausted to continue. Stopping for any other reason is interpreted legally as, 'acting unreasonably.' Then the good samaritan laws would offer us no protection if there were a tort suit.

 

[Marco]

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I would give aid as best as I could without causing any potential injury or endangering myself or family.

That might be calling 911 and nothing more, it would depend on the situation.


EDIT:
Would be attackers would only get a call, they still pose a threat.

 

[LEO 229]

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Agent19 wrote:

I would give aid as best as I could without causing any potential injury or endangering myself or family.

That might be calling 911 and nothing more, it would depend on the situation.

Being in Northern Virginia..... we have a fire department on every corner. This means help is really just a call away.

If you are out in the country where rescue can take a while to get there... More than a phone call may be required. Stopping bleeding wounds and stuff like that.

In my job.... I jump on the radio and call the professionals. I make sure the scene is safe and clear a patch for them.

 

[imperialism2024]

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Ah, so PA's law is even vauger than I thought. I'm not arguing for or against providing aid, but at least in PA, it sounds as though civil liability should at least be a concern in providing first aid. In other words, can you convince a jury that there is more than a 50% chance that what you did is not "unreasonable"?

 

[medicff0879]

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LEO 229 wrote:

Agent19 wrote:

I would give aid as best as I could without causing any potential injury or endangering myself or family.

That might be calling 911 and nothing more, it would depend on the situation.

Being in Northern Virginia..... we have a fire department on every corner. This means help is really just a call away.

If you are out in the country where rescue can take a while to get there... More than a phone call may be required. Stopping bleeding wounds and stuff like that.

In my job.... I jump on the radio and call the professionals. I make sure the scene is safe and clear a patch for them.

LOL, a patch to land on is it? So far out in the middle of nowhere that a helicopter is required to get to a decent hospital within 40 miles. Sounds like back home in East Texas to me, since I have moved to DFW Metroplex there is a trauma center within 10 miles of just about any given point.

I am with you completely about the gloves and mask to render aid, I am NOT going to expose myself to ANY Bloodborne illness. If you have ever been offered the "Bloodborne Prophalaxis Protocol Meds" than you will not risk 8 weeks of body destroying AIDS Prophylaxis meds, the side effects are worse than the illness LOL!! I turned it down both times and took my chances, still good and healthy to this day.

 

[LEO 229]

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medicff0879 wrote:

LEO 229 wrote:

Agent19 wrote:

I would give aid as best as I could without causing any potential injury or endangering myself or family.

That might be calling 911 and nothing more, it would depend on the situation.

Being in Northern Virginia..... we have a fire department on every corner. This means help is really just a call away.

If you are out in the country where rescue can take a while to get there... More than a phone call may be required. Stopping bleeding wounds and stuff like that.

In my job.... I jump on the radio and call the professionals. I make sure the scene is safe and clear a patch for them.

LOL, a patch to land on is it? So far out in the middle of nowhere that a helicopter is required to get to a decent hospital within 40 miles. Sounds like back home in East Texas to me, since I have moved to DFW Metroplex there is a trauma center within 10 miles of just about any given point.

I am with you completely about the gloves and mask to render aid, I am NOT going to expose myself to ANY Bloodborne illness. If you have ever been offered the "Bloodborne Prophalaxis Protocol Meds" than you will not risk 8 weeks of body destroying AIDS Prophylaxis meds, the side effects are worse than the illness LOL!! I turned it down both times and took my chances, still good and healthy to this day.

Well... we have a member that feels that I am....and I quote....

"shy from ignorance of viral health risks."

He appears to want me to think I had little to worry about from such exposures. I see that I am not alone and many others here are aware of the risk and not chance it. :dude:

 

[longwatch]

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http://blog.mlive.com/flintjournal/newsnow/2007/11/paramedic_shoots_then_saves_ro.html

Paramedic shoots, then saves robbery suspect
Posted by Kim Crawford | The Flint Journal
November 19, 2007 21:00PM
Categories: Clarkston, Crime, Grand Blanc, Grand Blanc Township, Independence Twp.

A Genesee County Sheriff's paramedic ordered an armed robbery suspect to drop his gun, shot him several times when he refused -- and then proceeded to save the suspect's life.

"Our deputy did what he was trained to do, protect the public and save lives," said Sheriff Robert J. Pickell said about the wounding early Monday of a Flint man suspected of robbing a store-gas station in Grand Blanc Township. The suspect then led police on a chase that came to a violent end in a subdivision near Clarkston in Oakland County.

"I'm proud of him," Pickell said of the paramedic.

The paramedic, a military reservist who has served with U.S. armed forces in Iraq, was one of several local law enforcement officers from Genesee County, including Grand Blanc Township and state police officers, who pursued the suspect down I-75 to Independence Township before state troopers knocked his SUV onto its side.
Pickell noted the paramedic is an expert marksman who has served as a sniper in the military.

"He shot the guy and then had the presence of mind to go get his bag and save the guy's life," Pickell said.

State police and Pickell on Monday did not release the name of the suspect, but said the man, about 28, has an extensive criminal record. The last available condition on the suspect was that he had undergone surgery at Genesys Regional Medical Center and was in critical condition.

The case began during a wild night in Grand Blanc Township that started about 1 a.m. Monday, when a township officer was injured in a hit-and-run accident on I-475 near Hill Road. That patrolman was taken to Genesys for treatment.

Those suspects ran and were arrested a few hours later in Grand Blanc Township. But when a township command officer was going to Genesys to visit the injured officer just before 3 a.m., he saw a truck fishtailing out of Fleck's Market on Holly Road near I-75, just as an armed robbery was reported.

Officers followed that vehicle south on the expressway and were attempting to stop it when it pulled into a rest area in Springfield Township. But state police said the suspect accelerated and got back on the highway.

Police said the man started to leave the expressway at the Dixie Highway exit, but swerved violently back onto I-75 when he saw police on the road ahead.
He exited at M-15 in Independence Township, and turned north when Oakland County Sheriff's deputies came toward him. About a 1/2 mile north of the expressway, the suspect turned into the Cranberry Pointe subdivision.

A state trooper used what it is called the "precision immobilization technique" or PIT maneuver, to strike the back of the suspect's SUV, knocking it onto it's side.
Officers approached and ordered the suspect, whom they could see moving about the truck with a handgun in his hand, to drop his weapon.

A trooper attempted to use a Taser to stun the suspect, but missed him. At that point the Genesee County paramedic also ordered the suspect, who was trying to get out of the vehicle, to drop the gun. When he didn't, the paramedic fired several shots, critically wounding him.

Police said money believed to have been taken in the armed robbery was recovered.
The shooting of the suspect is under investigation by state police, while Grand Blanc Township is handling the robbery investigation, police said.

In an odd footnote, Flint police were notified when one of the suspects in the original hit-and-run incident escaped from Hurley Medical Center late Monday afternoon, where he'd been taken for treatment for injuries he suffered in the crash that hurt the Grand Blanc Township officer.

Flint police officers caught that suspect and arrested him within about 30 minutes.

 

[Mini14]

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Why not? You might end up saving the life of a victim, not a criminal.

 

[Johnny Law]

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