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Carry at the Scottsdale Mustang library last night

PeterNSteinmetz

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 20, 2014
Messages
177
Location
Tempe, Arizona
I was at the Scottsdale Mustang library last night to attend a Republican party meeting and gather signatures for our letter to the Scottsdale mayor urging the removal of the no weapons signs at municipal buildings. Had an interesting experience.

I went in to ask for the locker to store my pistol. I was told this was basically the first time they had had to do this so they looked up the policy. Their policy called for my showing an ID and signing a form. I declined to do this since at the courthouse downtown I only have to provide my name and they attach that to the gun. This resulted in considerable discussion with the person in charge. (I subsequently found out that when they check your firearm into a locker they are explicitly prohibited from retaining a record of this and that the library states they shred such documentation.)

During this discussion the manager indicated that since the library would be closing at 8 and the meeting would go beyond that, that I would need to retrieve my firearm and store it in the car after 8.

I noted that in fact, per state law (13-3102.01), if they don't have a locker available for use which I can access when I am leaving, that I can then carry my firearm. This generated considerable further discussion and their insistence that I conform with their "policy". I suggested that perhaps it would actually be better to phone the police and have them resolve the issue.

The police responded 45 minutes later and after we both had done some research on the statute, the police agreed with me. Thus I was able to pick up my firearm shortly before 8 and be an LAC during the remainder of the meeting. Other members of the meeting seemed to greatly appreciate this, with several telling me afterwards they felt safer that people were allowed to carry there.

Hopefully we can get the policies for municipal buildings changed in Scottsdale so that LACs may continue to protect themselves and Scottsdale is not needlessly creating victim disarmament zones.
 

azcdlfred

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Joined
Dec 10, 2006
Messages
905
Location
Tucson, Arizona, USA
I noted that in fact, per state law (13-3102.01), if they don't have a locker available for use which I can access when I am leaving, that I can then carry my firearm.
There is nothing in the statutes that says an operator must let you carry if they don't meet the storage requirements. Take a look at subsection "C" of the law.

Fortunately, the bureaucrats you dealt with were not the brightest bulbs in the box and you were able to convince them otherwise.

They could have told you to piss off and not provided any storage and gotten away with it. There is no penalty for them not to comply. It's one of the things we've been trying to get passed since we (AzCDL) got the original storage bill passed years ago.

Fred
 

PeterNSteinmetz

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 20, 2014
Messages
177
Location
Tempe, Arizona
Actually several others who are reasonably expert interpret the law as I do. While there is no penalty for for them failing to follow the law and provide storage (which AzCDL should fix), it is also the case that there is nothing saying I can't then carry either.

Basically the operator would have to call the police and claim I was in violation of a statute or trespassing. It seems the police are a bit reluctant to push that when the operator is also violating the law.
 

Rusty Young Man

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Joined
Jun 19, 2013
Messages
1,548
Location
Árida Zona
SNIP...During this discussion the manager indicated that since the library would be closing at 8 and the meeting would go beyond that, that I would need to retrieve my firearm and store it in the car after 8.

I noted that in fact, per state law (13-3102.01), if they don't have a locker available for use which I can access when I am leaving, that I can then carry my firearm. This generated considerable further discussion and their insistence that I conform with their "policy". I suggested that perhaps it would actually be better to phone the police and have them resolve the issue.

The police responded 45 minutes later and after we both had done some research on the statute, the police agreed with me. Thus I was able to pick up my firearm shortly before 8 and be an LAC during the remainder of the meeting. Other members of the meeting seemed to greatly appreciate this, with several telling me afterwards they felt safer that people were allowed to carry there.

Hopefully we can get the policies for municipal buildings changed in Scottsdale so that LACs may continue to protect themselves and Scottsdale is not needlessly creating victim disarmament zones.

There is nothing in the statutes that says an operator must let you carry if they don't meet the storage requirements. Take a look at subsection "C" of the law.

Fortunately, the bureaucrats you dealt with were not the brightest bulbs in the box and you were able to convince them otherwise.

They could have told you to piss off and not provided any storage and gotten away with it. There is no penalty for them not to comply. It's one of the things we've been trying to get passed since we (AzCDL) got the original storage bill passed years ago.

Fred

While the law as written provides a cop-out for localities who choose to be in violation of state preemption, I agree that the law heavily implies that carry may not be restricted if the required storage requirements are unmet.

ARS 13-3102.01 said:
13-3102.01. Storage of deadly weapons; definitions
A. If an operator of a public establishment or a sponsor of a public event requests that a person carrying a deadly weapon remove the weapon, the operator or sponsor shall provide temporary and secure storage. The storage shall be readily accessible on entry into the establishment or event and allow for the immediate retrieval of the weapon on exit from the establishment or event.
B. This section does not apply to the licensed premises of any public establishment or public event with a license issued pursuant to title 4.
C. The operator of the establishment or the sponsor of the event or the employee of the operator or sponsor or the agent of the sponsor, including a public entity or public employee, is not liable for acts or omissions pursuant to this section unless the operator, sponsor, employee or agent intended to cause injury or was grossly negligent.
D. For the purposes of this section, "public establishment" and "public event" have the same meanings prescribed in section 13-3102.

Looking at this as a conditional statement ("If _____, then ____):
If the bolded part is done (prohibiting carry in a public establishment or event), then the underlined portion must be met (storage must be available).
If the underlined portion is NOT met (storage not available), then the bolded part CANNOT be asked (carry cannot be prohibited in public establishments or events).

As I understand it, AZCDL has been working to add teeth to this law by replacing/amending subsection C, which basically lets statists in power do as they wish without fear of punishment for blatant disregard for the law.
 
Last edited:

PeterNSteinmetz

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 20, 2014
Messages
177
Location
Tempe, Arizona
Looking at this as a conditional statement ("If _____, then ____):
If the bolded part is done (prohibiting carry in a public establishment or event), then the underlined portion must be met (storage must be available).
If the underlined portion is NOT met (storage not available), then the bolded part CANNOT be asked (carry cannot be prohibited in public establishments or events).

Exactly, that is the logical contrapositive of the original conditional, and it is true if the original conditional is true.
 
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