ron73440
Regular Member
I am in the club that refuses to get a permit.
There are times it would make things easier, but I can't justify spending that much money and time to ask permission.
Freedom is awesome.
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NC OC experience reports
- Thread starter glockaholic
- Start date
I am in the club that refuses to get a permit.
There are times it would make things easier, but I can't justify spending that much money and time to ask permission.
Freedom is awesome.
WalkingWolf
Regular Member
Well skipping the permit a monetary disadvantaged individual can get a Hi Point, holster, and box of ammo for under $200. Usually people on the bottom end of the economic scale do not travel that much, unless they live close to state borders. Gun control had it's roots in racism, now the roots are in keeping the lower income citizens from having means of self defense. I am surprised there has not been a case made by ACLU against this type of prejudice. But then no I am not surprised, they really are not that concerned with civil liberties, just the furtherance of progressive government.
utbagpiper
Banned
I would prefer that no permit be needed to legally carry a firearm for self defense. I believe requiring a permit to carry a gun is as offensive as it would be to require a permit to attend church, preach a sermon, read/publish a newspaper, have access to counsel if accused of a crime, or to be protected for an unreasonable/warrantless search.
And for me it isn't about OC vs CC. It is about carrying a gun. If I have a constitutional/natural/God-given right to peacefully carry an effective means of self-defense (and I most certainly believe and assert that I do), then whether that means is wholly visible, partially visible, or entirely out-of-sight makes no difference. Nor should a permit be required to legally possess a gun in publicly accessible locations that happen to be 999' (as the crow flies, no less) away from some other location that is generally, publically accessible.
I have spent several years working to get Utah to remove statutory penalties for discretely carrying a firearm in public and for carrying a fully loaded firearm, without first obtaining a permit. But even when we obtain that at the State level, we will face federal gun free school zone laws.
I don't know about where others live, but here it is all but impossible to avoid violation of the federal GFSZ law without a Utah permit to carry. Our urban areas have too many schools to avoid, and our rural communities are small enough that most of the town falls inside the 1000' limit.
I resisted getting a permit (more out of fingerprint / privacy issues and principled objections than financial) for a few years. I did my best to keep a gun as close at hand and usable as legally allowed without a permit. I finally gave up and got the permit. Excepting Post Offices, it allows me to legally carry virtually everywhere I am likely to go during my day. My boss can still fire me if I bring the gun into the business, but I am protected by statute so long as I leave it in the car even when parked in the company parking lot.
The permit allows me to maintain the means of an effective self-defense without risk of legal violation almost everywhere I go in my daily activities. It allows me to choose whether to OC, Casually CC, or CC and to more or less make changes on the fly as I decide may be appropriate or desirable.
On average, obtaining the permit will run slightly over $100 total including the required training class. We have no shortage of instructors who will cut a deal for teachers, (adult students), or anyone who has a financial hardship. In these cases, the permit can be obtained for less than $75, plus a couple of hours of sitting through a class; which class does a better job of authoritatively teaching the laws regarding possession of guns and use of guns than most can do on their own on the Internet or law-library in the same time. The permit is good for 5 years, and renewals cost less than $10 plus a couple of passport photos ($10 if you have them professionally done, less if you do them yourself). Over the first 10 years then, a typical permit holder is looking at less than $150 total or about $15 a year, amortized. It drops from there, year by year.
Yes, this is still an affront to liberty and rights, just as surely as if the permit costs $1 total, or was even free but required any more paperwork than is required to walk into a church, or to buy a paperback.
I recognize there are those for whom $150 or even $200 is still real money. I question how many of such persons are not spending at least $50 a month on luxuries like "smart" cell phones, cable TV, or eating out when they could save a lot of money by fixing their own food. I had my permit to carry long before I had a cell phone of any kind. Being able to legally have a gun close at hand seemed a lot better strategy for defending life and limb, than carrying a cell phone. Obvious benefits to carrying a phone and a gun. But if finances required me to choose one or the other, the gun would come first. And it did. One way or another, some time has to be spend learning the laws, so at worst the class is a wash there. Maybe the permits and permit process in other States is far worse than it is here. But that is my situation.
In brief, I agree very much with principled arguments against requiring a permit to exercise a constitutionally enumerated right. I recognize some potential for political gain in arguing that the costs of permits can be tantamount to poll taxes that prevent the truly poor from exercising their rights. But when it comes to brass tacks practical considerations, I'm having a hard time believing that very many who happen to be on this board find themselves unable to afford a permit in almost any of the shall issue States.
Having been as verbose as I am, and having twice in this post been very explicit that I believe requiring permits is constitutionally offensive, I hope nobody will stoop to claiming or suggesting that I support permits (as anything other than the current, statutory, practical method to avoid criminal violation while providing for self-defense) or am opposed to constitutional carry.
Charles
And for me it isn't about OC vs CC. It is about carrying a gun. If I have a constitutional/natural/God-given right to peacefully carry an effective means of self-defense (and I most certainly believe and assert that I do), then whether that means is wholly visible, partially visible, or entirely out-of-sight makes no difference. Nor should a permit be required to legally possess a gun in publicly accessible locations that happen to be 999' (as the crow flies, no less) away from some other location that is generally, publically accessible.
I have spent several years working to get Utah to remove statutory penalties for discretely carrying a firearm in public and for carrying a fully loaded firearm, without first obtaining a permit. But even when we obtain that at the State level, we will face federal gun free school zone laws.
I don't know about where others live, but here it is all but impossible to avoid violation of the federal GFSZ law without a Utah permit to carry. Our urban areas have too many schools to avoid, and our rural communities are small enough that most of the town falls inside the 1000' limit.
I resisted getting a permit (more out of fingerprint / privacy issues and principled objections than financial) for a few years. I did my best to keep a gun as close at hand and usable as legally allowed without a permit. I finally gave up and got the permit. Excepting Post Offices, it allows me to legally carry virtually everywhere I am likely to go during my day. My boss can still fire me if I bring the gun into the business, but I am protected by statute so long as I leave it in the car even when parked in the company parking lot.
The permit allows me to maintain the means of an effective self-defense without risk of legal violation almost everywhere I go in my daily activities. It allows me to choose whether to OC, Casually CC, or CC and to more or less make changes on the fly as I decide may be appropriate or desirable.
On average, obtaining the permit will run slightly over $100 total including the required training class. We have no shortage of instructors who will cut a deal for teachers, (adult students), or anyone who has a financial hardship. In these cases, the permit can be obtained for less than $75, plus a couple of hours of sitting through a class; which class does a better job of authoritatively teaching the laws regarding possession of guns and use of guns than most can do on their own on the Internet or law-library in the same time. The permit is good for 5 years, and renewals cost less than $10 plus a couple of passport photos ($10 if you have them professionally done, less if you do them yourself). Over the first 10 years then, a typical permit holder is looking at less than $150 total or about $15 a year, amortized. It drops from there, year by year.
Yes, this is still an affront to liberty and rights, just as surely as if the permit costs $1 total, or was even free but required any more paperwork than is required to walk into a church, or to buy a paperback.
I recognize there are those for whom $150 or even $200 is still real money. I question how many of such persons are not spending at least $50 a month on luxuries like "smart" cell phones, cable TV, or eating out when they could save a lot of money by fixing their own food. I had my permit to carry long before I had a cell phone of any kind. Being able to legally have a gun close at hand seemed a lot better strategy for defending life and limb, than carrying a cell phone. Obvious benefits to carrying a phone and a gun. But if finances required me to choose one or the other, the gun would come first. And it did. One way or another, some time has to be spend learning the laws, so at worst the class is a wash there. Maybe the permits and permit process in other States is far worse than it is here. But that is my situation.
In brief, I agree very much with principled arguments against requiring a permit to exercise a constitutionally enumerated right. I recognize some potential for political gain in arguing that the costs of permits can be tantamount to poll taxes that prevent the truly poor from exercising their rights. But when it comes to brass tacks practical considerations, I'm having a hard time believing that very many who happen to be on this board find themselves unable to afford a permit in almost any of the shall issue States.
Having been as verbose as I am, and having twice in this post been very explicit that I believe requiring permits is constitutionally offensive, I hope nobody will stoop to claiming or suggesting that I support permits (as anything other than the current, statutory, practical method to avoid criminal violation while providing for self-defense) or am opposed to constitutional carry.
Charles
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papa bear
Regular Member
Been in Wally World a couple of times in the last couple of weeks. have shook hands with about six OCers.
I was in check out a couple of days ago. when a guy behind me said " excuse me, it not that i am bothered , but your gun is showing". I said yes i am an Open carrier. He said again that it didn't bother him.
as I was leaving the register. one of the lead people was there and started asking me what i was carrying. seemed knowledgeable. talked over the merits of the Ruger. I told him I prefer the .45. he said he was looking to get one. good contact
I was in check out a couple of days ago. when a guy behind me said " excuse me, it not that i am bothered , but your gun is showing". I said yes i am an Open carrier. He said again that it didn't bother him.
as I was leaving the register. one of the lead people was there and started asking me what i was carrying. seemed knowledgeable. talked over the merits of the Ruger. I told him I prefer the .45. he said he was looking to get one. good contact
Brandon Walker
Newbie
My experience with Wally World and KFC Taco Bell and Others
I have also OC'd in wally world. Most of the time you get the odd look. However I was in the Walmart on Geer St, Durham (near there) and had walked over the entire store and finally found an associate/assistant manager, asked her where the perfume was, as I was looking for something for my wife's birthday. She walked me over to the ladies perfume, and noticed my firearm, Rock Island 1911, cocked & locked. She stepped back said that's not real is it? I said yes it is, wouldn't do me any good if it wasn't. She then said its not loaded is it? I responded with of course it is, I can't very well throw it at someone and out run them, then it wouldn't do me any good. She said she didn't know if I could have it open like that, I said state law doesn't tell us what we can do, it tells us what we can't do and there is not a law that says I can't open carry. But I did offer to conceal it as I do have a CHP but she just walked away. The rest of that day went without incident.
On another day I was on S. Miami Blvd near the Wendy's / Taco Bell, KFC and the Japanese place. I was actually at the KFC, Taco Bell, I wanted to get a taco and one of those caramel apple things. I ordered non-event there for that! However a gentleman that had already ordered he had a camouflaged bandana on turned noticed the weapon (the same 1911) asked if I was a LEO. I responded with no sir i'm not, I just believe in the 2nd amendment and open carry when I want to. He said unless you are a LEO you can't do that, and frankly it annoys me that you think you can. I said well sir it's okay for you to be annoyed, and I have no problem concealing my weapon or leaving this facility if that is what the manager asks me to do, otherwise I'll leave when I have my food because I ordered it to go. He said you are unbelievable, the nerve that you can open carry, this isn't the wild west. I nodded and said no sir its Durham NC where there is no law that says I can't open carry, but have a blessed day sir.
The managers heard everything, didn't seem to care and didn't ask me to leave. haven't seen the guy after that event, I frequent that place!
Never had an event where cops were called or anything, I've even OC'd at the Sheetz on S. Miami near TW Alexander and the cops are there most nights after dark and most just say Hi and strike up conversation about my weapon, and like wise me about theirs.
I do have a question however, OC of pistols seems to be non-eventful has anyone OC'd a rifle? I watch youtube videos about it and it seems to get alot of attention by the LEO's. I do not want any attention from LEO's if not warranted, is it okay to OC a rifle (AR type). I'm thinking GATTTOP would apply if I did that.
BTW 1st POST! long time lurker
I have also OC'd in wally world. Most of the time you get the odd look. However I was in the Walmart on Geer St, Durham (near there) and had walked over the entire store and finally found an associate/assistant manager, asked her where the perfume was, as I was looking for something for my wife's birthday. She walked me over to the ladies perfume, and noticed my firearm, Rock Island 1911, cocked & locked. She stepped back said that's not real is it? I said yes it is, wouldn't do me any good if it wasn't. She then said its not loaded is it? I responded with of course it is, I can't very well throw it at someone and out run them, then it wouldn't do me any good. She said she didn't know if I could have it open like that, I said state law doesn't tell us what we can do, it tells us what we can't do and there is not a law that says I can't open carry. But I did offer to conceal it as I do have a CHP but she just walked away. The rest of that day went without incident.
On another day I was on S. Miami Blvd near the Wendy's / Taco Bell, KFC and the Japanese place. I was actually at the KFC, Taco Bell, I wanted to get a taco and one of those caramel apple things. I ordered non-event there for that! However a gentleman that had already ordered he had a camouflaged bandana on turned noticed the weapon (the same 1911) asked if I was a LEO. I responded with no sir i'm not, I just believe in the 2nd amendment and open carry when I want to. He said unless you are a LEO you can't do that, and frankly it annoys me that you think you can. I said well sir it's okay for you to be annoyed, and I have no problem concealing my weapon or leaving this facility if that is what the manager asks me to do, otherwise I'll leave when I have my food because I ordered it to go. He said you are unbelievable, the nerve that you can open carry, this isn't the wild west. I nodded and said no sir its Durham NC where there is no law that says I can't open carry, but have a blessed day sir.
The managers heard everything, didn't seem to care and didn't ask me to leave. haven't seen the guy after that event, I frequent that place!
Never had an event where cops were called or anything, I've even OC'd at the Sheetz on S. Miami near TW Alexander and the cops are there most nights after dark and most just say Hi and strike up conversation about my weapon, and like wise me about theirs.
I do have a question however, OC of pistols seems to be non-eventful has anyone OC'd a rifle? I watch youtube videos about it and it seems to get alot of attention by the LEO's. I do not want any attention from LEO's if not warranted, is it okay to OC a rifle (AR type). I'm thinking GATTTOP would apply if I did that.
BTW 1st POST! long time lurker
WalkingWolf
Regular Member
Welcome to OCDO Brandon!
+1
That is how I view it - a matter of spending priorities...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
WalkingWolf
Regular Member
Those costs are not the costs for North Carolina, and this is a NC thread, his perspective is Utah. Giving misleading statements may seem like a good idea but they never are. In the long run it makes the person look not credible. I take his misleading statements with a grain of salt, because they are usually misleading.
Don't see it as misleading at all. Think it is obvious he is speaking from his personal reference and intended only for illustrative purposes.
WalkingWolf
Regular Member
He is clearly speaking about Utah, which that is OK, but the laws in Utah do not impact the people in NC. Making a case for NC law based on Utah law makes about as much sense as the distance between the states. They are not even bordering states. I must disagree, it is very misleading.
ETA it is not legal in NC for a NC resident to use a Utah concealed carry permit. They must use a NC CHP if they are a resident of North Carolina.
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bc.cruiser
Regular Member
While I agree with the concept, I can find no reference requiring a NC resident to have a NC CHP; a non-resident permit from any other state works for carry. The proposed requirement for a resident to have a NC CHP did not even make it out of committee. If ever a case was presented, and won, for a permanent resident alien to be able to get a CHP then the idea might have a chance. As it is right now, those who are here on a permanent basis but are not yet citizens cannot get a NC CHP; therefore, another state's non-resident permit is their only choice.
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WalkingWolf
Regular Member
Well that might be up to the judge, or jury. The section allowing reciprocity uses the the words out of state permittees(referes to a person with a permit) It does not state out of state permit. So to save legal fees and a possible jail sentence I would error towards the safety factor. It is against the law to carry a concealed handgun in NC, unless one has a permit or is a out of state permittee. Keep in mind that NC CHP laws are a defense to the crime of concealed carry. So unless there is something that clearly states a resident with a out of state license is recognized I would not want to risk my freedom. Plural for permit is permits, not permittee is a permit holder.
North Carolina also allows out-of-state concealed handgun permittees to carry concealed
handguns, pursuant to such permits, in North Carolina. N.C. Gen. Stat.
§
14-415.24(a). While
carrying a handgun pursuant to such permit, qualified
out-of-state permittees are held to the same
standards as North Carolina pe
rmittees
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PLUR
Regular Member
Quick question since we're already on the subject.
If I obtain my CHP in the state of North Carolina is it honored in the state of Florida? I used to live/work in Florida and wanted to get my CHP (CCP or whatever they call it down there) but I moved back home before becoming a resident. I was told that if I got it down there NC would honor it, but I'm not sure it works the other way around.
I have family down there and would prefer to be able to legally carry when I'm visiting.
If I obtain my CHP in the state of North Carolina is it honored in the state of Florida? I used to live/work in Florida and wanted to get my CHP (CCP or whatever they call it down there) but I moved back home before becoming a resident. I was told that if I got it down there NC would honor it, but I'm not sure it works the other way around.
I have family down there and would prefer to be able to legally carry when I'm visiting.
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WalkingWolf
Regular Member
From what I understand yes. Not positive but I believe I heard that you must use a retention holster in Fl though.
ron73440
Regular Member
I understand what you're saying.
For me the money is not a big deal, it is mostly the asking for permission that grinds my gears and is the main reason I don't have a permit.
If I lived in a state where a permit was requireed to OC then I would get one, but I would still OC and work to change the stupidity.
dmatting
Regular Member
Florida is currently CC only and honors the NC CHP. Walking Wolf had mentioned a retention holster requirement - I have not heard of this and have never carried in FL with a retention holster. Do they even make IWB holsters with active retention?
dmatting
Regular Member
I've carried at every one of those locations with no problems whatsoever. I'm not judging or anything - you do what you feel is right for you, but I would never offer to cover up my pistol just to make some random, ignorant hoplophobe feel comfortable. I had some moron come up and start demanding to see a permit from me at the Golden Corral down on Roxboro St near Lowes while I was filling up my plate. My response was to go pound sand, pretty much. He complained to the manager, who I know supports carry cuz I've talked to him before - he has the same pistol I carry.
You can - there is no law against it, just as there is no law against pistol OC, but there is no reason to in NC. My understanding is that the guys who are shown OCing long guns were mainly in TX where they don't have open carry of pistols and they were doing so with the intent to change the law. It looks like it worked - or at the very least had no negative effect. There are a number of bills ready to go down there that will allow for OC (and maybe even constitutional carry) and the governor will sign the bill that passes. I'm sure there were a few instances of those that were out to simply exercise their rights, too. As far as a right goes, though - carry if you wish. In practical terms, I don't see a reason for it.
Welcome to OCDOBTW 1st POST! long time lurker
bc.cruiser
Regular Member
I don't know where you got this. It is not the current wording of that section, nor was it the wording prior to HB650 changes effective Dec 2011. It may have been proposed wording that got dropped prior to final form.
§ 14-415.24. Reciprocity; out-of-state handgun permits.
(a) A valid concealed handgun permit or license issued by another state is valid in North Carolina.
(b) Repealed by Session Laws 2011-268, s. 22(a), effective December 1, 2011.
(c) Every 12 months after the effective date of this subsection, the Department of Justice shall make written inquiry of the concealed handgun permitting authorities in each other state as to: (i) whether a North Carolina resident may carry a concealed handgun in their state based upon having a valid North Carolina concealed handgun permit and (ii) whether a North Carolina resident may apply for a concealed handgun permit in that state based upon having a valid North Carolina concealed handgun permit. The Department of Justice shall attempt to secure from each state permission for North Carolina residents who hold a valid North Carolina concealed handgun permit to carry a concealed handgun in that state, either on the basis of the North Carolina permit or on the basis that the North Carolina permit is sufficient to permit the issuance of a similar license or permit by the other state. (2003-199, s. 1; 2011-268, s. 22(a).)
But to keep on OC topic: I carry OC in NC. And when feasible, my pockets are sanitized of ID.
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WalkingWolf
Regular Member
The wording I posted was passed in 2013.
I will dig for the 2013 change again, but here is another reference that clearly states a permit must be issued by the state of residence to be valid.
SECTION 1. G.S. 14‑415.24 reads as rewritten:
“§ 14‑415.24. Reciprocity; out‑of‑state handgun permits.
(a) A valid concealed handgun permit or license issued by another state is valid in North Carolina.Carolina, except as otherwise provided in this section.
(b) Repealed by Session Laws 2011‑268, s. 22(a), effective December 1, 2011.
(c) Every 12 months after the effective date of this subsection, the Department of Justice shall make written inquiry of the concealed handgun permitting authorities in each other state as to: (i) whether a North Carolina resident may carry a concealed handgun in their state based upon having a valid North Carolina concealed handgun permit and (ii) whether a North Carolina resident may apply for a concealed handgun permit in that state based upon having a valid North Carolina concealed handgun permit. The Department of Justice shall attempt to secure from each state permission for North Carolina residents who hold a valid North Carolina concealed handgun permit to carry a concealed handgun in that state, either on the basis of the North Carolina permit or on the basis that the North Carolina permit is sufficient to permit the issuance of a similar license or permit by the other state.
(d) A concealed handgun permit issued by a state to a person who is not a resident of that state shall not be valid in North Carolina. The permit holder’s address, as shown on a current drivers license, or other form of government issued identification that includes a photograph, shall be prima facie evidence of the permit holder’s state of residence.”
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bc.cruiser
Regular Member
PM sent.