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62 percent of Americans say Confederate statues should remain

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utbagpiper

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Tearing down statutes of honorable military men over mild offenses to sensibilities is the work of the Taliban, not of any American who understands the principles and values of the 1st amendment.

Any comparison between Confederate leaders and murderous dictators such as Stalin, Lenin, or Hitler is entirely without merit. Lee and his associates waged an honorable war of defense. Indeed, it was the Union armies that violated accepted standards of the day by waging "Total War" on the entire civilian population so as to destroy all support for the war and war effort, rather than keeping the battle on the field between uniformed soldiers.

I note that there is significant common cause and overlap of personnel between those who insist on tearing down Confederate monuments and those who object to any public display of religious origins (Public Nativity scenes at Christmas time, Crosses honoring fallen peace officers, Public displays of the 10 Commandments), those who oppose private gun ownership, those opposed to sensible laws regarding self defense, and those opposed to letting bakers and other creative talent freely decide in which events to participate and which to peacefully decline.

It is also interesting to me that the same folks who have long defended National Endowment for the Arts or other tax money grants to such offensive projects as displaying a Crucifix in a glass of urine, or subsidizing theaters that choose to produce plays such as the Book of Mormon Musical, then turn around and claim tax money cannot be used to maintain Confederate Monuments because the monuments offend some people. As if making a mock of what various Christian religious groups hold sacred doesn't offend a fair number of taxpayers.

Sadly, when avowed racists rally against removing the monuments, the case to remove them is made stronger, not weaker. The lefties benefit most from violence, riots, crime, and disorder as it supports their calls for more government controls. So they will never be motivated to do the right thing and just ignore offensive groups marching. Never mind that is exactly what they have required conservatives to do with all manner of public displays (offensive billboards, homosexual pride parades, etc).

While I am not of the Southern Culture and am quite well aware of its imperfections, I also recognize that the same forces attacking that culture and history is also attacking my own. I also appreciate the good things of Southern Culture, and respect diversity of culture enough not to want to see any reasonably successful culture eradicated just because it isn't to the liking of the Bos-Wash or Hollyweird crowd.
 

Citizen

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While we're at it, why stop at Confederates? The rationale(ization) is that they supported intolerance and slavery.

Why not erase the entire Bill of Rights? No, really. Who wrote the first Declaration of Rights after the break with England in 1776? George Mason.

Yeah. That George Mason. The same guy for whom is name George Mason University. The same guy for whom is named the government center building of the Mason District of Fairfax County.

George Mason was a slave owner. Erase everything he ever did and all he stood for, I say!!! :cuss::cuss:

Friggin' slaver owner! There is no possible way he could stand for anything good! Why, isn't it obvious? His Declaration of Rights was really just a back door, around-the-corner way of saying only white people have rights!

And, Thommy Jefferson. Get rid of him, too--slaver! Dayum! It is irrefutable that he enslaved his own kid--DNA testing on Sally Heming's descendants proved that. Why, the whole Declaration of Independence, and especially that second paragraph clause--hahhhhahahahahaha--about all men being created equal was just a covert way of saying only white people deserve any rights. Racist ---stard! Can't trust a dam thing he wrote! Just burn the Declaration of Independence.

Oh, no! No possible way anything those guys did could have been a genuine contribution. You see, there is no difference. There is no distinction here. If they did one bad thing, then all things they did are bad! Don't you get it?!?!?!?

Now, who's next? Oh, yes. Chief Justice Taney. We need to also throw away habeas corpus. Taney wrote the Dred Scott opinion and all its racism about blacks not being fit to live among whites. Ho, ho, ho. Just because he stood up to Abraham Lincoln's illegal attempt to do away with habeas corpus means nothing. Clearly, Taney's support of habeas corpus was just a sneaky way of defending racism. There is no possible way he--a self-confessed racist--could have been genuinely supporting that most important ancient writ against Lincoln's usurpation. Nope. Totally racially motivated. Hey, I think so. So, it must obviously be true. I was born knowing everything, and needing not one millisecond of second thought to prove myself right to me.

/sarcasm
 
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utbagpiper

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While we're at it, why stop at Confederates? The rationale(ization) is that they supported intolerance and slavery.

Why not erase the entire Bill of Rights? No, really. Who wrote the first Declaration of Rights after the break with England in 1776? George Mason.

...

/sarcasm

+1

And why stop with just slavery? What about being a filthy liar?

And what lie is worse than that of sexual infidelity to a faithful spouse?

Everyone who ever committed adultery is a filthy liar and by the rationale of those demanding we tear down Confederate Memorials, such filthy liars could do no good thing.

There is no doubt that FDR had a long time mistress. Ditto JFK and LBJ. Bill Clinton not only has had numerous affairs, but also committed perjury regarding sexual assault, for which he was impeached and disbarred. Even the Rev. Dr. MLK had extramarital affairs.

Of course, we all know this has very little to do with slavery which has been outlawed for some 150 years. It has very little to do with what remnants remain of white racism toward blacks or other minorities. As they were in 1860, and 1830, these are merely convenient excuses. The simple fact is that New Yorkers and New Englanders pretty much detest everything about Southerners and Southern culture (Ditto everything and everyone about an in "flyover country"). Always have. The feelings have also always pretty much been mutual. The North getting its hat handed to it for 4 years intensified the hatred as did 4 years of devastating war and Reconstruction and one and a half centuries of federal meddling in the South. We see on this site that the loudest voice in favor of removing these monuments comes from a resident of the crappy suburb of NYC.

I fear and mourn for my nation. We are going to tear ourselves apart because the liberals who preach tolerance and diversity will show no tolerance to the diversity of cultures and peoples in this vast land. If it isn't coastal and liberal it is wrong and evil. And a lot of decent people have just been pushed about as far as they will, I fear. And not nearly enough remember or have experienced or studied the horrors of war. May God have mercy on us and grant us His Grace to avoid what is starting to look nearly unavoidable.
 

solus

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"A poll conducted by The Marist Poll, in collaboration with NPR/PBS NewsHour, says that 62 percent of Americans say statues honoring Confederate leaders should remain as a historical symbol."

http://www.nbc12.com/story/36161762...e-statues-should-remain-as-historical-symbols

as w/any 'poll' 1.1K of a telephone survey of citizens of our country should be immediately discounted since the validity of said telephone survey variability of how the questions are articulated, where those surveyed reside, and such.

for example: why on earth was there a survey question asked to determine if those participants were "White Evangelical Christians"?

another example: why on earth did the survey specifically breakout & identify: "Race and Education:"

only breakdown on the survey's results is "White - Not College Graduate" or "White - College Graduate"

nothing on the educational background of those people of colour who participated.

nor not a thing mentioned on regional location of those participating in this BS survey.

more razzle dazzle with a bogus set of numbers picked up by journalists on a slow news day...

http://maristpoll.marist.edu/wp-con... Sample and Tables_August 17, 2017.pdf#page=3

sorry grape you got sucked into the quagmire expressed by British Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli: "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."
 
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solus

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has anybody suggested those offended by slavery look into the ethnicity of the individual (a free African American Anthony Johnson) who was the first to go to court in 1655 to get back his 'property', er slave ~ john casor!

and again, for the record, the Civil War was N O T begun over slavery but rather economic inequities between the Northern states and the Southern states the supplier of product. Further it was only after 2.5 years into the conflict when GB & FR were seriously contemplating assisting the Confederacy in their conflict did Lincoln bring up the slavery issue!

please keep history straight instead of clouding it with preconceived bias.
 
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countryclubjoe

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Clearly we can all agree that many of our past so called hero's had major issues.

from Washington to JFK... None were indeed perfect human beings, some believe the only perfect person died on a cross..

However that being said, none of our past hero's from Washington to JFK ever declared war against our country..

I am assuming the controversy at bar is with regards to Robert E lee and Stonewall Jackson... Now both men, while they may have been southern gentleman did in fact fight and wage war against the United States Of America, they both were guilty of Treason and other crimes against American citizens.. They took up arms in defense of a cause, and may I add, a losing cause..

Yes from Washington to JFK, many of our hero's and patriots had their faults, and will need answer to their creator, however again NONE of them committed any war crimes or treason against our Government, also please be advised over 700 thousand Americans die in that war..

History will not be forgotten by removing statues, history shall only be forgotten if we fail to educate our posterity.

Lee and Jackson vehemently opposed any education of slaves, hence they were treasonist tyrants of the highest order..
While Lee was in fact a humble loser and a good old boy southern gentleman, he had no problem while servicing in the Confederate army of ordering the FLOGGING of woman slaves.. In my humble opinion there need be NO statue or monument or plaque in public place for General Lee or his fellow confederates..

I purpose replace all statues, monuments and plaques with the image of a true hero of the civil war, Mr. William lloyd Garrison, Garrison was what America is all about.

Garrison saved lives, Lee took and destroyed lives..

" What a cruel thing war is-- to fill our hearts with hatred instead of love for our neighbors'.. General Lee

" Enslave the liberty of but one human being and the liberties of the world are put in peril" Mr. William lloyd Garrison

One practiced what they preached, the other violated what he preached.

i appreciate everyones opinion and I shall fight for your right to said opinion, I expect the same courtesy in my disagreement.

My .02
Regards
CCJ
 

countryclubjoe

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Joined
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Tearing down statutes of honorable military men over mild offenses to sensibilities is the work of the Taliban, not of any American who understands the principles and values of the 1st amendment.

Any comparison between Confederate leaders and murderous dictators such as Stalin, Lenin, or Hitler is entirely without merit. Lee and his associates waged an honorable war of defense. Indeed, it was the Union armies that violated accepted standards of the day by waging "Total War" on the entire civilian population so as to destroy all support for the war and war effort, rather than keeping the battle on the field between uniformed soldiers.

I note that there is significant common cause and overlap of personnel between those who insist on tearing down Confederate monuments and those who object to any public display of religious origins (Public Nativity scenes at Christmas time, Crosses honoring fallen peace officers, Public displays of the 10 Commandments), those who oppose private gun ownership, those opposed to sensible laws regarding self defense, and those opposed to letting bakers and other creative talent freely decide in which events to participate and which to peacefully decline.

It is also interesting to me that the same folks who have long defended National Endowment for the Arts or other tax money grants to such offensive projects as displaying a Crucifix in a glass of urine, or subsidizing theaters that choose to produce plays such as the Book of Mormon Musical, then turn around and claim tax money cannot be used to maintain Confederate Monuments because the monuments offend some people. As if making a mock of what various Christian religious groups hold sacred doesn't offend a fair number of taxpayers.

Sadly, when avowed racists rally against removing the monuments, the case to remove them is made stronger, not weaker. The lefties benefit most from violence, riots, crime, and disorder as it supports their calls for more government controls. So they will never be motivated to do the right thing and just ignore offensive groups marching. Never mind that is exactly what they have required conservatives to do with all manner of public displays (offensive billboards, homosexual pride parades, etc).

While I am not of the Southern Culture and am quite well aware of its imperfections, I also recognize that the same forces attacking that culture and history is also attacking my own. I also appreciate the good things of Southern Culture, and respect diversity of culture enough not to want to see any reasonably successful culture eradicated just because it isn't to the liking of the Bos-Wash or Hollyweird crowd.

Please name the aforementioned honorable men of which you state and please inform us how you ascertain of their honor..
CCJ
 

scooter348

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Jun 2, 2014
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Clearly we can all agree that many of our past so called hero's had major issues.

from Washington to JFK... None were indeed perfect human beings, some believe the only perfect person died on a cross..

However that being said, none of our past hero's from Washington to JFK ever declared war against our country..

I am assuming the controversy at bar is with regards to Robert E lee and Stonewall Jackson... Now both men, while they may have been southern gentleman did in fact fight and wage war against the United States Of America, they both were guilty of Treason and other crimes against American citizens.. They took up arms in defense of a cause, and may I add, a losing cause..

Yes from Washington to JFK, many of our hero's and patriots had their faults, and will need answer to their creator, however again NONE of them committed any war crimes or treason against our Government, also please be advised over 700 thousand Americans die in that war..

History will not be forgotten by removing statues, history shall only be forgotten if we fail to educate our posterity.

Lee and Jackson vehemently opposed any education of slaves, hence they were treasonist tyrants of the highest order..
While Lee was in fact a humble loser and a good old boy southern gentleman, he had no problem while servicing in the Confederate army of ordering the FLOGGING of woman slaves.. In my humble opinion there need be NO statue or monument or plaque in public place for General Lee or his fellow confederates..

I purpose replace all statues, monuments and plaques with the image of a true hero of the civil war, Mr. William lloyd Garrison, Garrison was what America is all about.

Garrison saved lives, Lee took and destroyed lives..

" What a cruel thing war is-- to fill our hearts with hatred instead of love for our neighbors'.. General Lee

" Enslave the liberty of but one human being and the liberties of the world are put in peril" Mr. William lloyd Garrison

One practiced what they preached, the other violated what he preached.

i appreciate everyones opinion and I shall fight for your right to said opinion, I expect the same courtesy in my disagreement.

My .02
Regards
CCJ

Joe,
I don't have the book to offer a cite right now, however, I will provide it this evening. But your comment about Jackson vehemently opposed to any education of slaves is flat out wrong. Prior to the War of Northern Aggression, Thomas Jackson actually established a Sunday school class in his church in Lexington to provide for the religious education of slaves. He also provided financial compensation during the war with the expressed intent for the money to purchase materials for the religious education of the slaves in that class.
 

OC for ME

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Robert E. Lee was a Virginian first, an American second. A sentiment that yankees lacked in 1850. Yankees have always been, in my view, more willing to supplicate at the feet of government. Rugged individualism requires that a citizen be willing to risk their life, liberty, and sacred honor in the quest for individual liberty. The majority of Southerners and our fellow citizens who moved west have this rugged individualism.

Yankees, not so much. The Boston Constitution Suspension Event is one example of yankees deferring to the state. Fortunately, I believe Robert E. Lee would not approve of the removal of these monuments, but he would not take up arms to prevent their removal either.
 

solus

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... Bill Clinton not only has had numerous affairs, but also committed perjury regarding sexual assault, for which he was impeached and disbarred.

it’s not accurate to say that he was disbarred from either the Supreme Court or from practicing law in Arkansas. Clinton’s license was
suspended in Arkansas, but he was not disbarred.

The president was acquitted on both articles of impeachment!

please mate, do try to get your history correct as it discredits all the other small minded blather you post out here!
 

solus

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Joe,
I don't have the book to offer a cite right now, however, I will provide it this evening. But your comment about Jackson vehemently opposed to any education of slaves is flat out wrong. Prior to the War of Northern Aggression, Thomas Jackson actually established a Sunday school class in his church in Lexington to provide for the religious education of slaves. He also provided financial compensation during the war with the expressed intent for the money to purchase materials for the religious education of the slaves in that class.

a reference scooter, but please note the underlined and bolded about the perception, during this period of our history, that was "God's will" the practice was acceptable!

Like many Southerners, Jackson struggled with his feelings about the institution of slavery, but it obviously was God’s will that it exista belief widely held in the South. In 1855, he began teaching Sunday school classes to slaves in Lexington, a violation of Virginia’s segregation laws. Slaves came to know him through these classes and sometimes begged him to buy them so they wouldn’t be sold into the Deep South where they might be worked literally to death. In 1906, long after Jackson’s death, Reverend L. L. Downing, whose parents had been among the slaves in Jackson’s Sunday school, raised money to have a memorial window dedicated to him in the Fifth Avenue Presbyterian Church of Roanoke, Virginia—likely making "Stonewall" the only Confederate general to have a memorial in an African American church.
 

OC for ME

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Yes, thank you. That is an advance on what has been sent to me in personal communications, that there is law making Confederate Veterans veterans of the United States.
Does not apply to Confederate monuments. They were not, obviously, in the service of the armed forces of the United States. I am confident that Robert E. Lee monuments were not erected due to his service in the Mexican war, or his time in the Corps of Engineers.
 

Grapeshot

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Does not apply to Confederate monuments. They were not, obviously, in the service of the armed forces of the United States. I am confident that Robert E. Lee monuments were not erected due to his service in the Mexican war, or his time in the Corps of Engineers.

In Virginia the law is quite clear and includes the following conflicts:

"Algonquin (1622), French and Indian (1754-1763), Revolutionary (1775-1783), War of 1812 (1812-1815), Mexican (1846-1848), Confederate or Union monuments or memorials of the War Between the States (1861-1865), Spanish-American (1898), World War I (1917-1918), World War II (1941-1945), Korean (1950-1953), Vietnam (1965-1973), Operation Desert Shield-Desert Storm (1990-1991), Global War on Terrorism (2000- ), Operation Enduring Freedom (2001- ), and Operation Iraqi Freedom (2003- )."
https://vacode.org/2016/15.2/II/18/3/15.2-1812/

Federal law is a different animal.
 
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utbagpiper

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it’s not accurate to say that he was disbarred from either the Supreme Court or from practicing law in Arkansas. Clinton’s license was
suspended in Arkansas, but he was not disbarred.

The president was acquitted on both articles of impeachment!

please mate, do try to get your history correct as it discredits all the other small minded blather you post out here!

I see Grapeshot's buddy is again enjoying the POR that enable him to pick nits and lob thinly veiled insults with impunity.

1-Of course the president was acquitted on both counts. That is why I wrote "impeachment" rather than "impeached and convicted". Inasmuch as impeachment is a purely political process, acquittal or conviction has far less to do with evidence than with political realities. Which is why I mentioned the disbarment, which process is far less political, more akin to an evidence-based trial. It is also important to remember--despite the leftists and media attempt to distort history--that Bill Clinton was impeached and disbarred for perjury and obstruction of justice, not for a private sexual matter between consenting adults.

2-Clinton was disbarred from the Supreme Court and then he asked to resign his license to practice before the court. "In October 2001, the United States Supreme Court barred former President Bill Clinton from practicing before it.[6] He then resigned from the Supreme Court bar in November.[7]" Wikipdia. See also The New York Times.

2-Bill Clinton's Arkansas Law License was suspended for 5 years and he was fined $25,000. Same The New York Times article as above.

3-"Suspension and temporary disbarment mean the same thing." Ask a Lawyer article.

4-You have provided materially false information in claiming Bill Clinton was not disbarred from the Supreme Court, and you've pick nits over whether a disbarment in Arkansas was a "disbarment", a "temporary disbarment", or a "suspension". This over a post where the thesis was clearly not to provide a textbook history of Clinton's legal issues, but merely to point out--as did Citizen with other examples--that many notable and generally liked leaders have had serious personal moral issues. You've lobbed insults at me hypocritically deriding what you see as a factual error even as your post contained factual errors, and is non-formatted in such a way that any grammar school teacher would hand your paper back to you to do over. But despite your mangling of proper English usage, you feel some need to claim superior knowledge over how data should be presented? And all this contributed what, exactly to the discussion?

Please find a different hobby. These personal attacks--despite being permitted by our mods--do not elevate you in any way.
 
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